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Well, I have heard about it, but yesterday it happened to me...after my third shot I went to cycle the bolt and couldn't feel it - because it wasn't there. The damn thing fell off. I have been a huge Remington fan, but this made me glad I recently bought a Stiller. I sure won't buy any more 700s. Unbelievable. Remingtons are accurate; no doubt about it...far more accurate IMO that a Win 70 and Ruger 77 (that stupid angle mounting system is the worst idea on the planet - except for Remington's idea of mounting a bolt handle). But I guess I will send all my bolts to my gunsmith and get him to fix them. Good thing it didn't fall off on my lion two years ago... I have never seen a gun writer write of such as thing, but trust me, I will. | ||
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I would LOVE to see an artical on this issue in a gun magazine. It seems to be happening more and more lately. It would be interesting data to know the production dates of the rifles involved.  Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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That's one of the reasons I switched to Savage about twenty years ago.   | |||
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Do you handload for the rifle? and have you ever locked up the bolt? I have heard of guys locking em up and then pounding open the bolt with wood and having the handle fall off, but i've never heard of a 700's bolt just falling off.... | |||
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I've personally seen three Rem 700 bolt handles come off with hand pressure. All of the brazed joints were faulty, due to bad coverage or lack of adhesion. One was mine (never hit it with anything) on a late 70's vintage 308 BDL, one in the mid 80's, on a brand new 270 on it's third Remington factory round and one on a 700 at the range that I didn't know the history of. But AZWriter, the Stillers are not exempt from that same problem, they use the same design as the Remington and last year we had a guy at one of our shoots have the handle come off of his Stiller 338 Lapua bolt, the same way. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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I had a bolt come off of a stainless 700 I had literally JUST taken out of it's box minutes before. When I was manager for a SW, showing rifles to a customer. He liked the stainless, asked if we had one in the caliber he wanted, went and got it, pulled it out of the box, wiped it down, stuck the bolt in, worked it closed then open, and when I opened it, the handle came off in my hand. Ice cold braze joint, looked like it was done in jr. high shop class. I said to the customer, "Well, I think I have another one in back, same caliber, let's see if that handle stays on." I honestly don't remember if he bought one or not... Not sure I would have if I were him. This was in '04 or '05, don't remember which. Obviously sent it back to Remington, and they obviously fixed it, but still... Yikes! I know it's cost-per-gun issue, but seriously? Brazed on?! That's pretty Ghetto for such a "prestigious" gun company! Si tantum EGO eram dimidium ut bonus ut EGO memor | |||
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I had the front sight of a 700 ADL fall off on the first outing to the range. I never found the sight but it had been installed with only one of the two screws required. I know this because there was only one threaded hole in the barrel. The second, missing hole, would have been for the screw that goes under the sight blade. Because the screw is normally hidden under the sight blade, the problem could not be visually detected. There were other little problems with that rifle. A second model 700 I owned had trouble feeding right out of the box. It went back to the factory under warranty. When it was returned to me there was a note saying that the magazine spring had been installed backwards. I had never removed it. This same rifle fired spontaneously the first time I took it on a hunt. I had extracted a fired cartridge case and the rifle fired as I rotated the bolt into the locked position on a new cartridge. Thank goodness it didn't fire before the bolt was rotated. . | |||
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It would be interesting to know (if records exist) how many 700s lost their bolt handles while they were in military service. Or were the handles rewelded to some sort of "milspec" to prevent them from falling off at an inappropriate time or place? | |||
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Surely, Remington is more diligent, and uses a more effective QA process, for custom shop rifles and military sales than they do for general production rifles. . | |||
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A Remington bolt handle may have come off of a Custom Shop 700 but I have never heard of that happening, not even on the basic one, the 700-C,. I have experienced one coming off on a standard M700-BDL, but it wasn't on the third shot. It was after the FIRST shot. Examination showed that the braze covered less than 20% of the surface which should have been brazed. I had it brazed on properly by a local welder and it has never given a lick of trouble since...and I've owned that gun for about 49 years. Personally, I don't like that part of the bolt design. I'd like to see a handle with an oval collar for its root...press fitted over a similarly oval bolt body. With the root of the bolt handle pressed completely around the bolt body, that should be impossible to pull off...especially if it was also low temp soldered in place. | |||
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Surely? | |||
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In ALL of my internet wanderings I have NEVER heard of a BOLT actually falling off. From ANY manufacturer. Not once. A bolt. Falling off a Remmie. Really. Not saying something couldn't happen but...really? IMO, pretty unbelievably rare. (PS: before openly razing a manufacturer, consider this: In the USA, any kind of negligence is subject to immediate retribution and lawsuit. No manufacturer wants this. Make an inaccurate firearm? Sure. Make a potential liability in a country that sues for free choice (aka, cigarettes)...? No...that's just not good business...) Regards, Robert ****************************** H4350! It stays crunchy in milk longer! | |||
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are you calling me a liar? | |||
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Well, I'd say you need to get out and do a bit more wandering. And the subject is a bolt handle, not a "bolt", as in your post. | |||
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Have used Remington 700/40X actions for over 40 years now on match type rifles as well as sporters and yes the bolt handle will come off. Does it happen everyday, no, but it does happen. If the handle was installed correctly to start with no problem, but to insure that it does not happen again, drill and tap for two screws into handle and bolt body plus the braze. If you see some of these rifles used for "non sporting use" such modifications are often referred to as "grunt proofing." | |||
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Send it to Dan Armstrong www.accutig.com NRA Patron Life Member Benefactor Level | |||
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I own 20 plus 700s and have bought and spld at least that many over the past 35 years. I had this happen once when I was pounding on the bolt with a 2X4 to open it, cause of a stuck case. Mechanical things are not perfect. I will be buying more 700s. NRA Patron member | |||
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Changed out a scope for a customer once, while he waited and watched. Finished, handed the rifle to him, he looked through the scope liked it, lifted the bolt handle to work the action, and the bolt handle came off in his hand. Atleast, he didn't blame me for it. Sure messed up his weekend hunt. Remington had another one to fix. | |||
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There are ranges across the country littered with these bolt handles... another reason Mausers are better. I pray for mud on my boots the day I die... Go see the nights of Africa..... | |||
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I wonder how many have fallen off in total... 50? 100? 250?.. Let see 250 would be 5 a year...I suspect we would be hearing about it a whole lot more...if it was 5 a year every year for 50 years.. let's go with 250/5000000 = 1 defect per 20000 parts...yep that there is poor quality. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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While I never had a Rem. fail on me for target or hunting use these reports are sure disturbing. On top of that the Rem. design (721/722/700) is junky anyway with that dink extractor, push ejector, poor design safety that does not control the firing pin, lack of CRF etc. Lucky for me that I did not have a failure on my CF 40X as the scores were so important to me. That rifle is retired now so its just there in the back row for sentimental reasons. | |||
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I have 2 model 700's and 2 model 600's. The only problem that I've had on a Remy is a sticky extractor where I had to finish a hunt in single shot mode. I don't think that I would buy another unless I was helping a friend out or the price was rediculously low. Now, if Remington would bring out something based on the 720, I would be the first in line. Never follow a bad move with a stupid move. | |||
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How many fall off in total? I've seen three personally in 30 years, I also busted a bolt handle off of Remington 788 grunting it open after the bolt stuck on a seperated case (excessive headspace, not overload). In 40+ years of hunting and shooting I've had a total of two guns fail on me in the field, both of them Remingtons. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Street price of a new 770 with factory mounted scope is $300. How low can they go? . | |||
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You might want to read the title of this post before you start taking folks to school. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I honestly have trouble accepting that your post is not a sarcastic jest. Bolt handles coming off of Remington bolts has been happening since the first week they built the Model 700. (Mine which lost its handle is one of those first rifles.) Whether it is a significant number compared to the number manufactured, I won't debate. But it DOES happen. It not only happened to my rifle, I have been present when it happened twice more at the rifle range where I was Chief Range Officer for a number of years. It may not be significant to the manufacturer, or to people who don't own the rifles, but I can assure you, it IS significant when it happens to you. That is doubly true if you are a financially challenged student who is scraping the bottom of his budget clean to buy the rifle in the first place, as I was. It can also ruin a very expensive hunting trip, again depending on the size of one's budget. I suspect it happens because the brazing process is an induction-heated operation at the factory, melting the brazing material in a process similar to spot welding. As such, it am led to believe it is pretty much a mindless type of thing, where a small piece of brazing material is placed between the root of the handle and the bolt body, and the whole shebang hit with a very fast, strong, and localized jolt of electricity to create the "melt". I don't know whether the brass for the braze is placed there by hand, or by a robotic arm, but either way, it can slip out of place fairly easily, and many of the brazes I have examined with a strong glass have been obviously imperfect, even if they haven't failed. Do I think it unwise for Remington to continue with such a design? Yes, I do, from a business reputation standpoint. But then, I am not one of the number-crunchers running the company. As long as they keep Remington M700s and their derivatives selling cheaply enough, it will continue to profit them to do so, and bolt handles will continue to come off now and then. I still buy them because it is only about a $15-$20 job to get one rebrazed securely on by a tradesman with whom you are on friendly terms. And the rifles are very easy to make shoot very accurately. So the trade-off/risk is not very oppressive to me. C'est la vie... BTW, you don't still believe in the tooth fairy do you? But you believe that despite all the first hand accounts that Remington bolt handles don't sometimes fall off?......... Not trying to belittle you, just trying to point out that there is no eyewitness evidence regarding the tooth fairy and there is lots of such evidence about Remington bolt handles. Lots of young kids believe in the tooth fairy until their logic and experience overcome the myth. Logic and experience should also eventually overcome the myth that all manufacturers are so intimidated by law suits that they never turn out anything faulty. They do. Immediate profit once in a while overcomes every other consideration. It even happens with military gear service people depend on for their very lives. | |||
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Yeah, but it's still more accurate than a M70 or a Ruger right?  I wouldn't want to hunt things with sharp teath or targets that shoot back with a rifle that may suddenly be a one shot program. Nate | |||
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Well, they don't call them a "SUCKS" action for nothing! | |||
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"Pictures".....of the actual firearm/bolt would be very interesting to look at  DRSS & Bolt Action Trash | |||
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A.C. Not trying to be a smartass here but isn't the M-700 bolt handle AND bolt face/locking lugs "sweated" or soldered on with a lead/tin and possibly silver mix solder? I always thought so as that is what it appears. As you stated above in regards to solder, brazing (w/brass) actually takes place at a higher temperature. "The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc.... -----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years------------------- | |||
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Well, Rae, the ones I've looked at were not fixed in place with either a lead/tin or silver solder at the factory, unless they were for some reason making the solder brass colored. They certainly looked brazed to me, but with very spotty coverage, and what coverage there was had obviously not all originally melted, either. Some of it was still in "sheet" form, barely stuck to either the bolt body or bolt handle. Actually, silver solder would likely have done an adequate job if properly applied, but I don't think the Remington people are gonna wanta spend any money on silver when they can make do with brass. Nor at this point do I think they did. Of course, I can only judge by the appearance of the broken joints and some faulty joints (incomplete, but not yet broken, anyway) I have looked at. That's 3 broken ones viewed while broken and at the time unrepaired, and maybe 9 other faulty ones. Whatever it is, it is not well done in every instance that comes from the factory, and it can be easily repaired by any person competent at brazing. Presumably if "Joe Average Welder" can do a good job of brazing it in place, Remington could too, if they put some genuine effort into it. I really like Models 721, 722, 725, and 700 Remington rifles, and have quite a number of them. But either the QC or the method employed or both, could be better. BTW, it is apparently not just the Model 700 which has had that problem historically. Jack O'Connor mentioned it happening in an article on the Remington 721-722 series of rifles back around 1950 or so, and I have a Model 722 on which the bolt handle has been brazed in place by an obviously not very skilled person, with brass braze slobbered outside the joint and not cleaned up. I don't know, but I assume it was a M722 the bolt handle that came off of at some time or other before I bought it. Ugly as the imperfect joint is, at least it is plenty strong now and has never given a lick of trouble with the current joint in place. I still think it would be a better idea for the factory to form the part of the bolt that the handle fits onto into an oval shape, make the root of the bolt handle as an oval "eye" for the bolt body oval to fit into, and press the bolt handle into place completely round the bolt. Take care, y'all. Glad to see you still participating here...... | |||
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Here's what the brazed joint looks like when it comes off.  Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Yeah, my mistake. That definitely looks like a (poorly - partially) brazed joint. I've heard of handles coming off but have never seen one. I was just judging from one of my two M-700s which has some of what appears to be solder oozed out from under the handle. But it is such a small amount and is hard to tell. Haven't looked at it in a while but sure thought it looked like solder. Apparently I was mistaken. A.C. Tikka does something very similar to their bolt as what you describe (press fit). "The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc.... -----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years------------------- | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rae59: Not trying to be a smartass here but isn't the M-700 bolt handle AND bolt face/locking lugs "sweated" or soldered on with a lead/tin and possibly silver mix solder?[QUOTE] Locking lugs sweated or soldered on? Really, the lugs could take the pressure when sweated on? Surely not, they must be forged in one piece with the bolt body? Do you mean the bolt head / front portion of the bolt is joined to the rest of the body well behind the lugs? (Like a Savage but just joined permanently? Haven't noticed a join on the Rem bolt body). | |||
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Well I have three M70's that will surely give the average M700 a serious run for their money. I'm not knocking the M700 mind you as I have three of those as well. My M70 Featherweight in 7x57 has shot groups as small as .375" with the Sierra 170 gr. round nose. I wish like hell Sierra would make another run of those. I really like that bullet. My M70 in .300 Win. Mag. is also sub-MOA with the 200 gr. Speer Hot-core or 200 gr. Nosler Partition. An M70 in .270 that I found at agunb show that I really didn't need but the price was so good I couldn't refuse shot .75" groups with Winchester factory 150 gr. Power Points. My handloads do just as well and sometimes better. On the other hand, I have an M70 Stainless Classic .338 Win. Mag. that shoots patterns. I believe it's the cheap ass plastic stock "Big W' put on the gun. My ex-son in law mounted it on his lead sled and it still shot patterns. One of these days I'll put it in a decent stock and we'll see what it can do. I also have a post 68 M70 in .338 Win. Mag. and while it's no tackholer, I'm happy with 1.25" groups from that one. After all, I'm not shooting ground squirrels with that one, right? One M700 was bought back in 1981. The bolt hasn't come off yet. The two M700 Classics haven't been used all that much so far but too little time rather than too little interest is what has kept me from doing more with them. Gotta do something about that I guess. The only Remington that has ever given me any problem is my M660 in .308 Win. The extractor gave up the ghost one day at the range and would not pull the brass from the chamber. I'm glad it quit at the range and not on a hunt. The Remington's I've seen with bolt handles coming off were the M788's. Back in the 70's I was working part time and on my days off for a gun smith and I saw probably a dozen M788's come in with the bolt handles broke off. That gunsmith just loved those rifles as they were a quit and easy profit item. Paul B. | |||
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Accuracy don't mean much when you can't work the bolt! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Yea good luck having any editor of any widely distributed rag letting THAT article hit print.... If you think every possible niche has been filled already, thank a wildcatter! | |||
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I bought a brand new Rem XCR II in 375 H&H, it had problems chambering factory Remington ammo right out of the box! I had a Sako extractor put in which fixed that problem, the bolt handle welded on and had it rechambered to 375 Weatherby "while it was there". I figured better safe than sorry. It is kinda sad though, my 1970s vintage Rem 700 BDLs are still in perfect working order with no work done on them but having Norm Thompson (bless his soul) adjust the triggers down to 2 1/2 lbs ... The rifle works just fine now, used it on my brown bear hunt last week ... Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Bolt face/head and lugs are one piece and soldered or brazed to bolt body just behind the front lugs a bit. Was told that by a Remington smith and it appears so on my bolts as there appears to be a joint or seam there. Perhaps someone else can verify? (Not interested in torching mine to see if it's true) "The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc.... -----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years------------------- | |||
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"let's go with 250/5000000 = 1 defect per 20000 parts...yep that there is poor quality." It is in a high powered rifle..... | |||
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