As I read all the posts and questions on cartridges, we all have to agree that they all will do the same thing in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing with them. Size does not matter as much as Bullet placement.
Bow hunters prove this all the time, because they are not hunting with a lot of power on tap.

They can't just get a bigger arrow!

However in all my years of shooting and also handloading, I have come to one conclusion.

If the game does not live in Africa and weighs more than a Volkswagen, or has claws longer than a stripper's fingernails, the 100+ year old 6.5 x 55 and 7 x 57 are awfully dam tough to beat.

When you consider, what the rounds will do, and how much powder ( or little) they will do it with, and how little recoil they do it with, the world has still not come up with a better combination.

Although the grains or bullet weight vary a little from Europe to the USA, the original bullets or around 160 grains for the 6.5 and 175 grains for the 7mm, sure can penetrate thru a lot.

The old Round Nose bullets might not have the long range capabilites of modern spitzers, but they sure can penetrate thru a lot. It is humorous to me how we all talk about our NoslerPartitions, or our Barnes X bullets or Our Swift A Frames, and then the European " premium" bullets, yet still nothing does any better than a good Old Round Nose does. They are reliable in expansion, and don't cost $3.00 every time you pull the trigger. Anyone who thinks different has either never used them, or if he did, I would blame the failure on the shooter, instead of the round. All too often it is the fault of the shooter instead of the round, no matter what caliber it is.

For those that don't believe me:
Go to any rifle range and the busiest time is the night before opening of deer season opening weekend. If you want to see the one night that is even busier? Go to the same range, either Sunday night or Monday night and see how many guys are at the range, re zeroing scopes and trying new loads because they missed or screwed up a shot on something over the weekend, but are blaming it always on the gun, the scope or the ammo.

Those old German and Scandanavian Engineers sure knew what they were doing.

Although not hot topics nowadays, a 30/40 Krag with a 220 grain Round Nose, or an '06 with the same bullet, or less not forget my British and Commonwealth Friends with an old 303 with the old 215 grain Round Nose. Sure other Rounds can better the old 375 H&H, but by how much?

Or for my German friends the 8mm Mauser with the old 227 grain bullet.

Sure you had to get closer with those Round Nose bullets in any of those rounds compared to poplular spitzers, but that is why they call it Hunting instead of SHOOTING ANIMALS.

If you hit it with one of those, you did not frequently have to wonder about it. No matter how big or how small.

Just the 6.5 x 57, 6.5 x 55 and the 7 x57 are my favorite three cartridges. If the hunter is up to the task, then so are the cartridges!

I couldn't agree more. I believe that all cartridges conceived after WWI were done so to sell rifles, nothing more.

The originals (6.5x55 and 57, 7x57 and 64, and 9.3x62) are still in production and have been getting the job done since day one. No magnums, no belts, no gimmicks. Just class.

Amen! May I have a hallelujah, Brothers and Sisters! May others see the light.

The 7x57mm Mauser is my favorite cartridge and it goes well in my CZ 550 American. So well, in fact, that with H414 powder I can push a 162 grain Hornady SST to well over 2,800 fps with three shot groups less than a half inch at 100 yards. That, my friends, should call for respect in anyone's book. With the 7x57 I have taken elk, whitetail deer, wild pig, javalina, coyotes and even one wild turkey with a headshot at 180 yards. With 48.9 grains of H414 and a velocity of 2,850 fps, that thing has more than enough whoomph out to around 300 yards for elk, though I personally would not shoot one any further away with any rifle. With the 7x57mm, I shoot hundreds of rounds each year and I know darn well where that bullet is going at 100, 200, 300, 400 and 500 yards out. The 400 and 500 yards is just for punching holes in paper. By the way, all game I have shot with the little 7 have been one-shot kills. Just my 2 cents worth. Tom Purdom

Hear, hear to heavy for caliber round nose bullets - rarely fails to work, although not necessarily for people in love with their ballistics tables. In the field, ballistics tables don't matter much. Get to know your load, and if you are stretching things a bit, you'll know how much hold-over is required. Beware of the rifleman with only one rifle!
- mike

Seafire

The very words I live by.

I have a 6.5x55 a 7x57 and a 8x57. For the game I hunt, (pigs,donkeys) I don't see the need for anything bigger. The donkey below was shot with a 6.5, and these are tough animals. This stallion went down with one shot.

Bakes

seafire,

we seem to share our appreciation for the 6,5x57.

in the "favourite loads" forum I published some loads. maybe you could share your petloads on this lovely cartridge.

montero

Well, I'm with you on the ol' 6.5, but not necessarily on the round nosed bullets. My little 6.5X55 is particularly fond of Barnes XLCs, and on-game performance is very nice. After experimenting with serveral cartridges, I finally decided on the 6.5 for my NA hunting actvities. I haven't looked back in the couple of years I've hunted with it. Of course I went and bought a .338 for Africa, but what better excuse is there for a new rifle than a safari?

My first high=powered rifle was a sporterized Mauser in 7x57 and proved to be very accurate. The gunsmith was amazed that I specified a receiver sight instead of scope, but it is a light carbine length rifle that is easy to carry.
I believe the heavy for caliber philosophy for good terminal performance is based upon the moderate velocities these rounds produce. With the above mentioned cartridges, you cannot develop enough velocity with a heavy bullet to have problems. A friend of mine who builds double rifles once told me that terminal velocities around 2500 fps provided reliable bullet performance. I believe him and that's what the old 7x57 does with heavy bullets. A lighter bullet will flatten trajectories, but bullets must be matched to the game for good results.

Seafire, if you hoped and expected to get heated arguments, you probably came to the wrong place!

Let's face it, friend, if the .303, 6.5x55 and 7x57 were pieces of crap, people wouldn't still be shooting them today. Just think: how many people do you know who still shoot 11mm Lebel today?

A few years ago, in the March 2000 issue of "Rifle" Magazine, Ross Seyfried wrote an article on the .303 British and the .30-40 Krag in which he argued for the "spectacular level" of their original performance. Mr. Seyfried worked up loads using 215-grain Woodleigh bullets in the .303 and 220 Hornady RN bullets in the .30-40, loaded with charges of Reloder 15 to yield muzzle velocities in the range of 2,100 feet-per-second for both rifles. These loads matched the original 1890s-era specs exactly and the rifles absolutely loved them. His most significant observation was that the penetration achieved by both of these loads was virtually identical to that of a .300 Magnum loaded with a 180-grain X-Bullet.

The only advantage in favour of the magnums was therefore the ability to do the same thing at longer ranges. That's it. Period.

My own 7x57 is an old FN Brazillian Mauser carbine I fitted with a Lyman aperture sight and a simple blade in the front. The only load I shoot out of it utilizes a 175-grain Hornady RN at a chronographed 2,400 feet-per-second. I haven't had the chance to take it hunting yet, but I'm confident that it would be up to any reasonable task here in British Columbia.

My first winter in Canada was brutally long and cold. To pass the time I decided to restore old
military rifles, one each winter. I started with a Swedish M96 mauser from 1907. It finished nicely and the bore was easy to restore. Come Spring I was utterly amazed at how well that rifle would shoot. I now have restored three of them, all M96's plus when Remington made them their Classic rifle a few years ago, I added another. The Remington handles the lighter bullets as well as the heavy round noses. It's hard to believe a rifle can handle everything from 85 to 160gr equally well. I shot my first moose with a 160gr SP. I think part of the problem might be that in North America we tend to be averse to metric chamberings and pass them by. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

P-17:

I had no intention of starting an argument at all. The 6.5's 7 x57, 303, 30/40, 8 x 57, these are really hunter's cartridges.

One of the posts from a fellow from Sweden was saying that their was a Magazine in Sweden that did some penetration tests comparing the 6.5 x55 with 160 ( or 156 gr) Round Noses, to a 375 H&H with 300 grain RNs. The 160 grain bullet actually penetrated more.

Sorry to say, that the old 303 Rifles never turned my crank. But that is not based on the cartridge. I have thought about rebarreling a couple of magnums I no longer need to an old 303.
If I could get a 215 gr RN once again, I would do it in a heartbeat.

While I do shoot spitzers in my rifles of these calibers also, if the range I am to be limited to is 250yds, and the game is going to be large, I will use the Round Noses every time. Foot pounds do not penetrate, Sectional Density and weight do it every time.

Funny that round noses work, because Weatherby still loads their 257Wthby with the 117 gr Hornady Round Nose to this day. Because of how much penetration the bullet will do and how much impact it will stand. I think that is a pretty fair endorcement of the old design. They just don't talk about it much because it is not trendy.

Not that it sells magazines, but many gunwriters will concede the value of an old round nose and the old calibers.

Hell even Elmer Keith complimented the old 6.5 x54 Greek Mannlicher with a 160 gr RN at only about 2,000 fps, as a great load for lions, elephant and Grizzly. He normally did not like anything you couldn't drop a bowling ball down the barrel on.

Mr Montero;

I would be more than happy to send you a list of some of my loads for the 6.5 x 57. Mine has a heavy sporter 28 inch barrel on a Winchester 70 action, late production. I built it for long range shooting, but do hunt with it also.

I am debating about rebarreling another rifle to a lighter set up, but not many people do the 6.5 x 57 over here. Has not been popular since the Arisakas from Japan have disappeared.

Do you use American powders, Reloder, IMR and Hodgdon, or do you use the European available stuff. I do not by the Vitavoori (or however it is spelled or Norma) just based on price. The RL series is made in Sweden for them. I don't know if it is Norma or not.

Some of my loads you may think are too hot, like my 6mm Remington loads. However, I also download my stuff frequently, to match the load for the game being hunted or the reasons I am shooting it. Lighter loads for 300 yd competition and stiff loads for 600 yds competition.

It is my overall favorite round, followed by the x55 Swedish one, then the 338/06, 260 Rem, 6mm Remington, 243 Winchester. 7 x57 are all close together. Also love the 30/06 and the 270, but like opinions, everyone in the USA has one.

Mr. Seafire,

I do use whatever is available at the time, as we have some funny regulations in my country.

I use European stuff more than anything alse, mostly Rotweil, Norma, and Vihtavuori, but from time to time I manage to lay my hands on some Hodgdon, Alliant, IMR or whatever.

In my 6,5x57R I am currently using Re 15 with 93 to 100 gr bullets, Norma 204 with 108 to 120 gr bullets, and Rotweil 905 with 125 to 140 grain bullets.

By the way, Mr Seafire, I sent a fax to the attention of Mr John Harkin at the Shooters Pro Shop, as I am looking to buy some 105 grain partitions, but with no response so far.
Do you know if they have any in stock for the time being?

Regards from sunny Spain.

montero

Seafire, if you're even mildly contemplating a .303 British, get yourself a P-14. If your barrel is even halfway decent, you won't believe the way something made when W.H. Taft was president performs today.

Trust me on this one.

Something the young hot rodders of the day don't think about, is the development that went into these old cartridges. All the old dependable favorites were a military cartridge at one time. The military and the governments were the ones with the money, time, and test facilities to develop the most efficient weapons for the troops to use.
Developers of later cartridges haven't had this luxury of millions of dollars and rounds to blow away. All they are doing now is shaping a container in a different way to launch the same size projectiles in generally the same USEFUL velocity ranges. Some have got to the point I consider pointless.
I believe it was P.O. Ackley that was asked to improve the 6.5X55 for a rifle afficianado. He turned down the job, saying the Swede was already perfect, and there was no improving he could do. And Ackley would Wildcat ANYTHIHNG!
Many snear at the old milsurp rifles.I hope they continue to do so, and keep the prices down. These were battle built, and battle tested. These are the best of the breed, chambering-wise.

Hi guys,

For some reason I thought I would chime in about my 7x57. It's a Ruger #1A light sporter, and I just love the little rifle. It is the sweetest little deer rifle I have owned. I have had mixed results with the #1 rifles, but this one just shoots great. It wears a little LOOpold Vari-x II 1-4x20 in low Ruger rings. My favorite load so far is the Speer 160 grain spitzer hot-cor over a Ruger-only charge of IMR-4350. Don't know the exact velocity and don't care. It shoots great and kills whitetails cleanly. I would love to try it on a pronghorn and/or ekl (my stupid funnynym for elk) and mulie someday. Dang job gets in the way of my hunting aspirations - but that's another story.

Live well

Red,

Your described a very nice rifle.!!!

Mr. Montero:

We have a common thread, with the 105 grain partition in a Semi Spitzer.

It is not available in the USA, but they do sell it at their store as factory seconds.

The few times that they have had them when I was there, I bought the few bags they had. It is by far my favorite bullet for my 260 Remington for deer hunting.

I have shot some of these into wood media to test them out, and they cut a clean path, even compared to the Nosler 100 grain Spitzer which is common in this country.

If you do not hear from him, send me an email to spitfire@cpros.com, and I will personally check for you. If they have some, then let me know what you would like and I will be more than happy to send them to Spain for you, if we are not going to be breaking any stupid laws. I am sure UPS or Fed Ex will deliver them since they are only components and are not dangerous. I will trust you to reimburse me.

If the 105s are not available, will the 100 grain Partitions work for you. I don't know if they are available in Europe but they also have a 125 grain partition. This is my favorite in the 6.5 x 55 and x 57, since I can get a lot more velocity out of this bullet compared to the 140s and it will perform as well as the 140 IMHO.

It would be a pleasure to be of any assistance.

By the way, my first name is John. Feel free to call me that. Last name is Christenson.

John,
Thank you very much for your kind offer.
If I don't happen to hear anything from Mr. Harkin I shall get back to you.
I am looking to buy a small number of them, let's say 100 units, and not being a gun part, nor loaded ammo, etc., I don�t believe we would be breaching any regulations.
100 grain Partitions are easily found in Europe, as well as the 125 and 140 grainers. I have used the 100 gr on Alpine Chamois and the 125 gr on Tien Shan's Ibex and Roe deer, and they always performed the same, with both good expansion and penetration.
I have seen one of my hunting partners use the 105 grain PArtition, as loaded by Hirtenberger, and I would like to try them, but just for the sake of trying them, since they seem to performan just like the 100 grainers.
And, John, than you very much for your kind offer!
montero

Montero:

As a fellow 6.5 affectionato, If you just wanted to try some, and you don't hear from John Harkin, I would be happy to send you over 25 or so to play with.

I do find them superior to the 100 grainers, strictly because of design of a SemiSpitzer ( or Semi Round Nose as I like to call them).

I wouldn't think it mattered, but when I have seen the difference in damage into the same piece of wood, just shot at different points of impact I was amazed. Just keeps solidifying my belief in the good old Round Nose design.

However year after year, companies keep dropping more and more Round Nose bullets from their catalogs, because fewer and fewer of us buy them.

Everyone thinks they need a 500 meter bullet to take a 100 meter shot ( europeanized that for you!)(meters instead of yards).

Practicality and hunting are getting farther and farther apart each year, for the sake of selling something new. What was in vogue this year is old hat next year.

Don't wish to sound dumb here - I'm new to the world of shooting - but can either of these 2 calibers used in any type of target/benchrest competitions.

Seafire. I think we are in agreement on the round nose bullets. two of my all time favorite were thr 170 gr. Sierra RN and the 200 gr. Nosler Partition RN, both long since discontinued. I was scrounging around a yard sale a while back that was selliong off stuff from the estate of a handloader type. I found four boxes of the Sierra 170 gr. RN's and I'm hoarding them like gold.
I have three rifles in 7x57, and at one time had two 6.5x54 1903 Mannlicher carbines, one with single trigger and the other with double set trigers. Some lousy low life decided he should have them, rather than me. A pox on him and all his ancestors and offspring from now till the end of time. Sure did like those for deer.
Gonna put in for my hunting tags today, going for antelope (Lot's of luck, I haven't drawn in twenty years.), deer,(Chances slim) and elk, (yeah, right) These lottery draws for big game suck. I already have my load for antelope and deer, but I'm trying to decide what to use for elk. Deer and "lopes, 7x57 with 140 gr. Nosler BT, but shots here at elk can be at quite long range. Due to a shoulder injury, I'm going to have to stay away from the .300 mag this year, so I'm thinking either a 150 or 160 gr. Nosler in the 7x57. Not sure I could get a close enough shot for the 170 gr. Sierra or 175 gr. Hornady. We'll just have to see.
Paul B.

British,

the 6.5 x 55 definitely is.

Paul B,

I have a load I have to look it up but I chronographed a 175 at about 2700 fps.

I do know with 40 grains of IMR 3031 you can get 2650 all day in a 24 inch barreled Ruger. In fact that is that rifles best groups. With a 4 power scope and Plain old crappy Remington 175 grain spitzers, this thing has given me 3 shot groups I can cover with a quarter at 100 yds.

Certainly a couple of my favorites. Bakes, your picture gives new meaning to "...being shot in the ass."

To all like-minded posters to this thread----

I propose we organize the "ONE HUNDRED YEAR OLD MAUSER CARTRIDGE CLUB"--no dues, no meetings, no officers -- just folks who believe/know that these "oldies but goodies" do the job they are supposed to and rather well, I might add. I personally would have to be a honorary member because I am a firm advocate of the Ackley Improved versions of these wonderful old cartridges......Just got to tinker and really like what Parker Otto Ackley came up with 50+ years ago. Lets keep the faith and keep pouring powder and seating bullets in these 'old faithfuls'.

Ol' John

John:

good idea brother!

I'd go for that. In my town is the last guy still active who worked and trained under Ackley, and his health is not good from what I hear.

Funny but was in a party in which he was Elk Hunting with last season. Thought a man with his experience who can have or make anything he wants, what was he carrying and shooting for Elk:
30/06.! Says a lot.

The other guy alive has retired except for doing stuff for celebrities. I had him do my 338/06 for me before he retired a few years ago..He was in his early 80s.

It is a real pleasure getting to meet these two gentlemen.

The 7x57 has the edge over the 6.5 in killing power and leaves a better blood trail. As the diameter of bullets go up the blood trail gets better...

I shot a few head of game with the 6.5 and it is about like a 257 Robt. and thats a fine caliber for deer etc. as is the 6.5.....

For elk and Kudu I definatly want the 7x57. but should that not be possible then I would survive with a 6.5 just fine...bullet placement and bullet construction being much more important than caliber.

I love both my 6.5x55 and my 7x57 but the ability to shoot 100gr hunting bullets so fast and flat makes the 6.5 my favourite by a whisker.

6.5x55 - the thinking mans 25-06
7x57 - the thinking mans 308

I'm sure I can't add anything that has not already been said about the 7x57. However, real hunting cartridges just don't get much better.
I'm on my second 7x57 now, a Ruger Mdl 77, (Liberty Model, made in 1976) and it has accounted for everything (except sheep) in the lower 48. My gun safe is full...according to my wife, but the gun I reach for first is the 7x57.
My first 7x57 was in a Mdl 54 Win.that I traded off in favor of a magnum that was the craze of the 1960's and 70's. I realized the mistake after the first box of shells, two elk, and a rather smallish White Tail had been taken.
If I were pressed to say "why" the 7x57 has retained it's popularity, I would have to say it is shootability. It is a very mild mannered wolf in sheeps clothing that seems to get the job done...and done well, albeit, without the glamour of our marketing guru's verbiage to glorify that performance.
Once the Green Box Gun Co. got a hold of the 6.5x55 they "fixed" it with the .260 Remington. They also "fixed" the 7x57 with the 7mm08. It is my humble opinion that neither of these old timers were broke, and certainly didn't need fixing!
We are told this is all progress. What we got was an identical round that operates at higher pressures and should, at least in theory, provide higher and better velocities and energy. Perhaps that's true. Time has a way of telling what's true, and what's hype.
Just my thoughts.
Respectfully, Russ

With the 260 Remington, 7mm-08 Remington, 270 Winchester, 308 Winchester, and 30-06 Springfield, there's no need for the 6.5X55, 7X57, or 8X57.

Orion, you have an excellent point. An equally true contrary statement would be: With either one of the 6.5x55 or the 7x57, you won't need a .260, 7mm-08, .270, .280, .308, or .30-06.

At one time I had a Ruger #1AB in 7X57 and reluctantly sold it. I have a pre64 M 70 in 7X57 and a custon 7X57AI on a Sako action. Both rifles are deadly on deer size game and the Ackly with 160 Speer Grand Slams works well on Elk. If I'm not mistaken the 7X57 was Elanor O'Connor's favorite rifle and she took game from all over the world with it.

The 6.5X55 has become quite popular up here, and is at least as easy to find as the 260 Rem, probably easier.

I too was impressed at the accuracy of the 6.5X55 from a pitted old barrel.

I bump into 6.5X55 ammo occasionally, and the local reloading supply shop always has some on hand. Of course, it's not really needed since the little Swede is so easy to load for. I was never a big fan of European cartridges; my mindset was much like Orion's. Then I picked up the Sako I have now and it fit so well I just bought it. I didn't really care what cartridge it used. Turns out I really lucked out with the 6.5X55. It's very well-balanced, well-mannered, and accurate cartridge. Plus it kills things dead with 140 grain Barnes XLCs...

The European cartridges were invented in the days before commercialism. The cartridges are still in production today because they just don't need any improvement.

American cartridges are usually invented to sell rifles.

If the cartridge has the name of a large company attached to it, it is a gimmick. If it is named after is measurements, or if bears the monkiker on an individual (Brenneke, Lott, Roberts, etc.) then it was probably developed with honorable intentions.