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| <toto> |
I am thinking of a new rifle in either Sako or Savage or Winchester in the STW. Anyone know personally how these compare in accuracy and how accurate they really are. Thanks. fws | ||
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Of the three, both Sako and Savage have a better reputation for consistent accuracy. That's not to say that a Winchester won't be, but chances of getting an accuracy dog are probably a little bit higher with Winchester. Now, when it comes to craftsmanship and attention to detail, there is a very clear pecking order: Sako, far and above over the other two. Winchester in second place, about 2/3s as nice as a Sako. Savage, waaaaaaaaaaaaay at the bottom of the list. | |||
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The Sako 75 SS, is outstanding. The wood stock is pretty, but I like synthetic. If you buy a Sako, you will be MORE than happy, I'm sure...sakofan..... ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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As far as accuracy, a Sako must shoot 1/2 or less at the factory, before they ship it out. I have heard that, I believe it's true. Mine does!!!..sakofan... | |||
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toto The odds are the Sako will be the more accurate factory rifle, as Orion 1 has said and it will also be finished much nicer. However, if you wanted to go beyond the factory level then the Model 70 in my opinion then jumps out in front. Jewell 3 lever triggers available, better bedding configuration and better scope mount setup. Mike | |||
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Good points, Mike...Buy a Sako and leave it alone!! The others would be better for customizing. My Sako is stock, and will probably stay that way. Good Luck, with whatever you decide...sakofan.. | |||
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quote:Mike. I'll disagree. Sakos DO NOT need help in the form of aftermarket triggers. Anyone who has shot a 75 can tell you that. Mine has zero creep (as they all do) and is owner adjustable WITHOUT REMOVING THE ACTION FROM THE STOCK down to 2 lbs. I like mine at 3 lbs. I see no advantage to the Model 70's bedding, vs the Sako 75. In fact, Sako's more consistent accuracy is proof that Sako's bedding is more than adequate. Better scope mount setup? Please. A dovetail mount is FAR more rigid, repeatable, and sturdy than the little tiny screws that hold on to rifle bases on a M70. You go downhill from there if you insist on using the lame Redfield-style rear windage mount. IF, you mount Talley rings and bases with 8-40 screws, you might come close to the sturdiness and repetability of the Sako dovetail. That's just my professional opinion based on a mechanical engineering education and experience, mind you. | |||
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Mike. I'll disagree. You are welcome ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} Sakos DO NOT need help in the form of aftermarket triggers. Anyone who has shot a 75 can tell you that. Mine has zero creep (as they all do) and is owner adjustable WITHOUT REMOVING THE ACTION FROM THE STOCK down to 2 lbs. I like mine at 3 lbs. A 3 lever Jewell will adjust from 2 ounces to about 12 ounces with one spring, about 8 ounces to 1.5 pounds with another spring and about 1.5 pounds to 4 pounds with the third spring and without removing the rifle from the stock. Sear engagement is also adjustable without removing stock. I see no advantage to the Model 70's bedding, vs the Sako 75. In fact, Sako's more consistent accuracy is proof that Sako's bedding is more than adequate. No it's proof that a Sako is better put together. However when the Sako recoil lug system is thrown away and a Remington style recoil lug is installed between the barrel and action, then that would bring the Sako in line. Better scope mount setup? Please. A dovetail mount is FAR more rigid, repeatable, and sturdy than the little tiny screws that hold on to rifle bases on a M70. You go downhill from there if you insist on using the lame Redfield-style rear windage mount. IF, you mount Talley rings and bases with 8-40 screws, you might come close to the sturdiness and repetability of the Sako dovetail. That's just my professional opinion based on a mechanical engineering education and experience, mind you. Standard 6 X 48 screws with bases epoxied on simply don't move. If in doubt then the bases are sweated on. Sako's dovetail problem is the tapers in conjunction with the tiny recoil stud system. Agree completely that Redfield windage style rings are not good. Go to a website like Badger and you will see they make bases only for Rem 700 and Model 70 None of that is to say that a Sako can't be made to deliver top accuracy. However the Rem700 and M70 receiver simply make things easier. One area where Rem 700 is better than M70 is that the trigger can be removed when the action is glued in. Mike [ 05-18-2003, 08:21: Message edited by: Mike375 ] | |||
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Toto, As far as accuracy out of the box, it would be a tossup between Savage and Sako for first place and Winchester in last place. As far as the rest of it, it depends on your priorities. For fit and finish Sako, Winchester, Savage in that order. If you are the sort of person that appreciates craftmanship, Sako is your gun. For myself, a rifle is a tool. I wouldn't give you five cents for a pretty gun. That's why I buy Savage. I'm hard on my guns, I maintain them alright but I certainly don't baby them and all mine have synthetic stocks. Winchester makes some fine guns but I don't like their cone feed. Most guys probably wouldn't agree but if controlled feeding was important to you, I would look at Ruger above anybody else. And that's my two cents for the day. Good luck on your new purchase. | |||
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The new Guns&Ammo has some Sako info. They are good rifles,people have been beating them up for decades over here. No problems. The climate is rough,people do not "pet" their rifles that much at all. Give Sako a try,you can always trade it. | |||
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quote:I neither need nor want a trigger that goes much below 2 3/4 lbs in any rifle. I don't compete in benchrest, so I really have no use for a Jewell. Jewell trigger for Sako 75 = wasted money. The way Sakos shoot, why the hell would anyone want to change the recoil lug to a Remington style????? Sakos don't need bedding redone because they are bedded CORRECTLY from the factory. I dare you find that in a Remrugerchester. Once again, a waste of time and money. The Sako devetail is tapered to tighten the scope bases during recoil. The recoil lug is big enough for the loads it needs to handle. Loads that it shares with the scope base/receiver doevetail. There is NO need to sweat/solder/loctite anything on. Those are band-aids for crappy scope mounting methods , aka Remchester scope mounts. Me engineer, you insurance salesman. Don't try to teach me mechanical design. You can't. There are two reasons why Badger makes bases for Remchesters and not for Sakos. One: market size. A lot more Americans own Remchesters than Sakos. Two: market demand. Sako owners don't need aftermarket bases. A sako is much easier to make it deliver top accuracy. It needs to be fed premium ammo and it needs a decent scope. That's it. Remchesterugers need a lot more than that. | |||
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Sako does not have a written accuracy guarantee that I can find in their literature on their website or from any dealer.They are accurate rifles but the 1/2" guarantee is a rumour that I have yet to see validated. | |||
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I neither need nor want a trigger that goes much below 2 3/4 lbs in any rifle. I don't compete in benchrest, so I really have no use for a Jewell. Jewell trigger for Sako 75 = wasted money. The topic starter asked about accuracy of Winchester and Sako. I said that out of the box the Sako was probably better. However I then went to the next stage. The simple facts are that the M70 or Rem 700 allows more scope in the search for accuracy and Jewell triggers are one of the avenues open to M70 and Rem 700 but closed off to Sako. Many shooters in the past have bought a rifle with a good reputation for accuracy out of the box but become disappointed if they want to go to the next stage of accuracy. Bottom line is that a Rem 700 ADL with bent barrel is a better basis for top accuracy than a Sako. The way Sakos shoot, why the hell would anyone want to change the recoil lug to a Remington style????? Sakos don't need bedding redone because they are bedded CORRECTLY from the factory. I dare you find that in a Remrugerchester. Once again, a waste of time and money. The fact that you are happy with what a Sako delivers out of the box does not change the fact that in the world of achieving top accuracy an out of the box Sako is a piece of shit. Secondly, if you have the Sako rebarreled the factory recol lug system belongs in the garbage tin. A Remington style lug is the best fix. The Sako devetail is tapered to tighten the scope bases during recoil. The recoil lug is big enough for the loads it needs to handle. Loads that it shares with the scope base/receiver doevetail. There is NO need to sweat/solder/loctite anything on. Those are band-aids for crappy scope mounting methods , aka Remchester scope mounts. Not correct. The recoil stud is designed to stop the bases from getting tighter. The problem without the recoil stud is that some individual bases will slide on too far which is why the side screw is needed. If the side screw is used and the recoil stud not used the system is then completely hopeless. The Sako system would be better if bases could be made consistent and of very good steel so that the bases could be simply belted onto the dovetails. Alas, that does happen as some bases will go onto the dovetails too far and some not far enough and so the combination of the recoil stud and side screw is used. Me engineer, you insurance salesman. Don't try to teach me mechanical design. You can't. Engineers have had it wrong before. There are two reasons why Badger makes bases for Remchesters and not for Sakos. One: market size. A lot more Americans own Remchesters than Sakos. Two: market demand. Sako owners don't need aftermarket bases. The reason is that the Sako is virtually an unused action for accuracy rifles. As to after market bases Leupold and Burris are two that come to mind who make them for Sako. Also, at least in Australia, custom dovetails are made for Sakos that fit properly and do away with the need for the recoil stud and side screw. A Sako is much easier to make it deliver top accuracy. It needs to be fed premium ammo and it needs a decent scope. That's it. Remchesterugers need a lot more than that. Depends how you define top accuracy. I would agree that unless someone was unlucky with a Sako purchase and lucky with a Win/Rem purhcase then the Sako will deliver more accuracy if the rifle is left standard. However, once serious accuracy is the goal, then Sakos are best left in the box and kept under the bed. Mike [ 05-19-2003, 10:52: Message edited by: Mike375 ] | |||
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Well said Mike, ever thought about taking a executive position in the Shooters Party or SSAA....Les | |||
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Les On the odd occasion. Sometime ago the SSAA in NSW was advertising for a position and I was going to phone Roy Smith as I thought I could do what was wanted and fit it into my own business, which these days is mostly making data base programs. In addition I produce written analysis of various insurance contracts and in particular Income Replacement or disability insurance. Gun laws are quite easy for me to look at as I am used to tying together things on page 8 paragraph b that change the meaning of something on page 2 paragraph c etc. Mike | |||
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Why are Sako's so heavy? According to their website they seem to be pretty close at 9 lbs.! Heavy gun when it's all loaded up and ready to take to the field. I'd take a Winchester or the Savage. | |||
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Mike, your first two issues are matters of opinion. On the scope mount dovetail, you're flat dead wrong. It has to do with shear forces, and the fact that a clamp on a diverging surface parallel to the shear plane resists it far better than a pair of screws with their minor dimension perpendicular to the shear plane. Don't even need a recoil lug. I'll leave it up to you do do the math. I know enough about mechanical engineering to be able to discover a bullshiter amateur, and you're it. Out. [ 05-20-2003, 04:03: Message edited by: Orion 1 ] | |||
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Orion 1 I mentioned above that if bases for the Sako are made of good steel and accurately enough (which also includes accuracy of the rifle's dovetails)then no side screw or recoil lug is needed as the mounts can be simply belted on. However belting them on is ruled out because of inconsistent measurements and hence the side screw is needed. The other problem with being able to belt them on is that some shooters don't like the idea that the base won't simply release when a screw is undone. Remember Sako has historically offered an aperature sight to fit the rear dovetail. The net result is the need for the side screw which in turn means the recoil stud is required, all of which completely cancels out the advantage of the tapered dovetails. Since the tapers are canceled there is no engineering degree required from the world of tapers. Remember that in my original post I said Sako was the choice if "out of the box accuracy" was the criteria but not if someone wanted to go down the road of serious accuracy. You say that other areas are a matter of opinion. However, like many before me, I discovered what is required if serious accuracy is the goal. If can you point out to me the advantage the Sako action offers over the Rem 700 or M70 when serious accuracy is the goal then myself and countless others would be very pleased to know. One of the reasons why some people select actions like Stolle or Nesika is because they want something nicer than a Rem 700 action. So if the Sako action can offer what the Rem 700 offers for a serious accuracy rifle many many people will be extremely happy. Mike [ 05-20-2003, 05:36: Message edited by: Mike375 ] | |||
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quote:WTF is belting them on? Speak American, geek. BTW, I'm holding in my hands a Sako 75 in 300 Win mag with a Burris 3-9X40 scope held on by a pair of Leupold ringmounts made to fit the Sako dovetail. The ringmounts do not have a protrusion to fit into the recoil lug recess, and they don't need one. The scope has not moved a millimeter in almost 150 rounds yet. Actually, it probably moved a few thousands of an inch forward until the clamp on the rings achieved an interference fit with the widening sides of the dovetail. Frankly, when it comes to Sako's scope mount system, you haven't a clue. Stick to selling insurance policies and following the herd. This is so far over your head. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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I personally don't like sakos mounting system.I prefer bolting the base directly to the reciever and using leupold rings and bases.As to the sakos potential for extreme accuracy, they are rarely seen taking home trophies at benchrest competitions while 700 actions take home their fair share. | |||
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WTF is belting them on? Speak American, geek. Knocking them on with a copper drift or copper headed mallet. The scope has not moved a millimeter in almost 150 rounds yet. Actually, it probably moved a few thousands of an inch forward until the clamp on the rings achieved an interference fit with the widening sides of the dovetail. You have just highlighted one of the problems with the tapered dovetails if the side screw is not used. That problem is not being able to easily drop the scope on and off as is the case with cross slot type mounts. All serious accuracy shooting requires one to be ready to change scopes without hassle and settling in periods. Frankly, when it comes to Sako's scope mount system, you haven't a clue. You have to ask yourself why the system is not used on other rifles that are accuracy based or big game calibres. All dovetails are parallel whether they be made integral with the receiver or are on a base that is fitted. It can't be a money situation because the American military use cross slot and in the case of high end custom guns the making of mounts/dovetails will only be a small proportion of the cost and not a tapered diovetail is in sight on high end big bore custom rifles. Stick to selling insurance policies and following the herd. This is so far over your head. Again I ask you, point out the advantages the Sako action offers over say Rem 700 action for serious accuracy. Give me a reason to leave the herd. The Sako is a fine rifle as I have previously said on this thread. However the facts are that when it comes to serious accuracy where we leave behind the "out of the box" criteria the Sako action is not to be found on the firing line and when it comes to high end custom rifles that is the place for the Mauser, M70 or similar. What about actions like Searcy, Johannsen, Hartman & Weiss, Granite Arms. These actions range from $3000US to $5000US and are for the big kickers, but not a tapered dovetail in sight. What about Stolle actions which are probably number 1 in benchrest and super accurate varmint rifles. Parallel dovetails all the way down the action. Again, show me the reason to leave the herd. Point out the advantages the Sako action offers for serious accuracy. Mike | |||
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I have a fondness for Sakos myself. I own an old L61R in 7mm Remington Magnum that was the first centerfire rifle I owned when I bought it used in 1985. I've recently fired a friend's TRG-22 in .308 that was the most shockingly accurate rifle I've ever had the pleasure of shooting. My 200-metre group with that rifle "opened up" to 1/2 an inch when I got cocky and pulled the fifth and last shot. I also tried a fellow's Sako 75 Stainless .30-06 with factory ammo that printed three shots into an inch at 200 metres. Suffice it to say that I'm impressed with the technology used in new rifles generally, and Sako in particular. One thing does trouble me, however. As much as I love Sakos, I have to concede that you rarely see them in serious competition/accuracy rifles. The Remington 700 and variants are everywhere at matches, including even some benchrest matches. And Winchester Model 70s make a good showing, too, as do Savages. Why are Sakos so rare in these kinds of rifles? From what I've seen, they're wonderful actions. What's going on here? | |||
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P-17 It is simply a case of what you can do with say a Rem 700 as compared to a Sako. For example, many seriously accurate rifles have the action glued to the bedding. They are often called "glue ins". The good part about a Rem 700 is that the trigger can be removed without "ungluing" the rifle. Then there is everything you can buy for Rem 700 and M70. Stocks being an example. If two people set out to have extremely accurate rifles made and one starts with a Sako and the other with a Rem 700, then the journey is just much easier with the Rem 700. If further down the track the Rem 700 owner would like to achieve the same sort of accuracy but with a nicer action like a Nesika, then his Jewell triggers and stocks will fit the Nesika. Mike | |||
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Mike 375, I believe that a lot of benchrest shooters modify their Rem 700 bolts with a Sako extractor - is that correct? If so does that points to a deficiency with that little extractor that Remington uses with their system? | |||
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dingo Sometimes Remingtons don't easily engage over the case rim and also shave lots of brass off it in the process, so that is one reason for the Sako extractor. The other main reason is when say a Rem 700 in 223 bolt is opened for the 6mm PPC. A Sako extractor is then used and ther Sako extractor is also good because it will allow the bolt face to be opened to 308 size but still work on the PPC case rim. Thus you can a switch barrel in a 22 or 6mm PPC plus a 6mm Rem or 22/250 etc. Mike | |||
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In my opinion, it's a question of a whole lot a different philosopsy. In Finland ( in spite of the Beretta system) we make rifles to be as good as possible for the hunting purposes they were originally designed for. If they are lesser to some other rifles in that same purpose, they have failed.But whatever any reasonable user wants of a Sako rifle, that will be done. Because after all, who really NEEDS an accuracy of a sniper rifle for ones hunting rifle? About scopes and scope mounts...buy the ones that are recommeneded for the Sako mounts, and you won't be failed. Period. | |||
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LD100, I have sold my "other" hunting rifle. A Rem. Sendero 300 RUM, and am sticking w/ my beloved Sako 75 SS 300WM Dont take this as a slam on the Sendero. It is, or was, a great weapon, and was the least demanding of all my rifles, as far as loads, bullets, powders and accuracy. It would shoot most anything, with good to great results. BUT, as far as "feel". I have never held a rifle in my hands, that shouldered, and gave me total confidance in my shot, like the Sako. It's bone stock, even the trigger, with the Opti-locs, and a Zeiss Conquest 3.5-10x44 scope. It's all about confidence, and to me feel for a gun. Mike and others have made valid points on this thread, but as far as "stock" hunting rifles, Sako has no equal. And while they may not have sniper style accuracy, I personally have never heard of a Sako "that wouldnt shoot"...Amen....still..sakofan... ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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sakofan, Well said. I'm the same way, but my gun ain't a Sako nor a Remington. | |||
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quote:AMEN to that S�lvi | |||
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I guess I have to weigh in here. I bought a Sako 75 when they first came out. Mine is one of the pre key ones. Its a stainless steel and fiber stock. And its a 338 Winchester Mag. Sako mounts and a 3x-9x Ziess for sights. I zeroed it with 250 gr Nosler Partition Federal Loads. The first two shots, hit 1.5 inchs apart just about 12 O'clock at 100 yards. New gun and trigger, I then put four more in between those two holes, a 12 O'clock and you could cover those four with a nickel! Four days latter I let the air out of a Bull moose. Sako is a very good rifle, now if they would bring 9,3 x 62's in to the country I would buy one in a heart beat. Then again I could just buy a 30-06 Winchester and turn it over to a gunsmith and get one that way. Oh mine is a DM. it was the only way they came when I bought mine. They have a very good DM set up. I like it. I like it better than I thought I would. Good accuracy, feeds and extracts with out a hitch a trigger that is good out of the box, what more can you ask of an out of the box rifle? | |||
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Never had a Sako but they do look awful nice on the internet website. Thought about getting either a stainless hunter model in something like a .270 or or a magnum. My other choice in the Sako 75 would be the stainless laminated varmit model in either the 7mm-08 or .308. Can anyone comment on either of the above Sako rifles and what they are like in shooting and quality. Thanks. As a note; I sent Beretta USA a money order for a 2003 catalog and instead they sent me a gun lock! Never did get the catalog! | |||
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Hey Sizzlebird....I live in York, and will show you my Sako 75 SS 300WM, live and in person!! Kidding...I see you live in Catawba Co. NC... I bought mine at Carolina Sporting Arms...but they dont have any more. Go to Hyatt's Gunstore on Wilkenson Bld, going towards Gastonia. They have 3 or 4 Sako's. Go and "feel" the Sako differance...Sounds like a commercial.....sakofan.... | |||
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quote:I have a Sako 75 Stainless Hunter in 300 Winchester Magnum. It is a fantastically well made rifle. While so far I haven't found a load that it shoots sub-MOA, that's not a requirement for me in hunting rifles. It does shoot consistently right at 1.2 MOA and that's beeen good enough for kills out to 320 yards. Love them Sakos. | |||
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I have a Sako 75 Stainless Hunter in 300 Winchester Magnum. It is a fantastically well made rifle. While so far I haven't found a load that it shoots sub-MOA, that's not a requirement for me in hunting rifles. It does shoot consistently right at 1.2 MOA and that's beeen good enough for kills out to 320 yards. My Sako 75 SS 300WM, Sunday, shot a 5 shot group at 100 yds, .382, using Barnes "X" bullets...sakofan.. | |||
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My Sako 75 SS 300WM, Sunday, shot a 5 shot group at 100 yds, .382, using Barnes "X" bullets...sakofan.. | |||
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While sako's are high quality rifles they are on the heavy side and I will not own a rifle with the new locking bolts.Can the bolt locking assembly on the sako 75 be easily removed?With the remington 700 locking bolt the locking assembly is easily replaced with the older non -locking parts. | |||
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I have a couple pre-lock 75's also and will not buy the newer ones with the locking bolt. Contact JB at AccuFlite Arms as he has the bolt shroud needed to change one over to make it a non-locking bolt arrangement. Sorry l did not ask what they cost but he does have them in stock. Good luck. | |||
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Sakofan: I haven't tried loads with the X bullet. Maybe I should. stubblejumper: Mine has no bolt lock. But even if it did, I wouldn't care. I'd just leave it unlocked if I couldn't find a replacement shroud without it. | |||
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Orion 1-You may not care but obviously other people do or no one would bother to stock the parts to eliminate the bolt lock. | |||
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