458 Only,
Thanks for the detailed response. 140 fps would matter to me. I'm not quite clear about the first part of your post. Was it the Browning or Sako stock that split under recoil?

The question as to the optimal barrel length for 338 is a perfect illustration of ballistics and gun design in practice.

The ratio of a guns average pressure to its peak pressure is referred to as piezometric efficiency of the gun.

"Magnums" fall in this category.

They have low expansion ratios: ( total gun volume to chamber volume ) ie they have large cases relative to to total gun volume. They consume large charges of typically slower burning powder.

The net effect is a Abel and Noble curve which is shifted to the right. The position of "all burnt" is close to the muzzle giving higher velocities as long as the barrel is long enough!

These guns are said to have a high piezometric efficiency.

In order to maximize on this effect barrels are chosen long to maximize the work time of the gas on the projectile. The net effect is higher velocity but at a cost in the form of an increase in intershot variability.

If the barrel is chosen to short the propellant position of all burnt is outside the bore and effectiveness is lost.

If one would like to go short on the barrel then a lower piezometric efficiency offering would be more appropriate. There is little to be gained from cutting a 338 Win mag down to 20 inches especially when compared to a 338-06 or a 338RCM

Equal velocities ( from a 20 inch 338 Mag) can be obtained by using a case like the 308 burning smaller volumes of faster burning powder.

Enter the 338 RCM.

The piezometric efficiency is lower, the expansion ratio is larger , the chamber volume smaller and smaller volumes of powder ( but faster burning ) is consumed for same net effect in velocity as long as bullet sectional density is not to high.

The gun blast and report on the latter is smaller than that of the short barrelled magnum and in theory at least should have less intershot variability when compared to the magnum fired from a short barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

quote:

Originally posted by JeffreyPhD:
A while back I acquired a Browning X Bolt 338 Win Mag. It has a 26" barrel. So far I haven't choreographed anything with it. In general though, is there a consensus about optimal barrel length for a 338 Win? I'm thinking it would be more handy in thick areas with a somewhat shorter barrel, probably 24". The 338 Win Mag doesn't seem like a large capacity cartridge (relative to bore diameter) that would need a 26" tube. What say AR gun geeks?

Why is a 26" barrel on a shotgun considered "short" (even on a pump or auto-loader) & ideal for thick cover yet a 26" barrel on a rifle is considered "long"?

Generally, if bird hunting with a shotgun, you don't walk much with it, especially in the bush.

Corey

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
If you are going to choose a short barrel 338 you could achieve the same result with a far lesser cartridge .... actually come to think of it one would actually do far better with a lesser but more efficient option.

Please give the specific cartridge example you are thinking of.

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
I have a Win M70 .338 that has a 21.5" barrel, before everyone screams "muzzle blast" and "low velocity", "might as well have a 338/06" just hear me out.
Mine gets 2845 fps with a 225 grain bullet (70.5 gr IMR 4350) shoots tiny groups and does not have any noticeable muzzle blast any worse than anything else I shoot.
So having said that I would say the optimum length of barrel for a .338 WM is up to you, anything from 21.5" to 26" seems to work.
If you are hell bent on shortening yours have it chopped at 22 or 23 and never look back.

Excellent post!

If you measure the case capacity and distance from bullet base to muzzle you can calculate the expansion ratio. that will indicate if a shorter barrel will have a significant affect of velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray Alaska:
(if there is such thing as beauty on a rifle)

No, there isn't.

21" for me on the 338 Winchester Magnum.

Velocity loss between a 21" and 24" is about 65-75 fps.

Really one shouldn't talk about velocity loss in the scenario. One should talk about bullet drop difference at 300 yards, or whatever between a 21" and 24" barrel. I use 300 yards because that is my maximum shooting distance at all big game.

There must be a computer program that can quickly calculate a loss of 65 fps in relation to bullet drop difference at 300 yards?

Corey

A .338 win. should have a 24 or 26 inch barrel..I think you guys are over thinking this subject..

All the tests Ive done on the .338 shows you give up about 120 to 140 FPS when you cut a .338 to 210 inches from 24, I suppose that could vary depending on powder..I used old surplus 4831, and RL-22 some time ago. Not that would get all excited over 150 FPS for that matter. I didn't enjoy the blast particularly.

Ray,

Do you have an idea how much extra the bullet would drop at 300 yards giving up 120 fps?

Corey

I am not concerned about penetration at all in this day and age; I use TTSX's exclusively.

Just want to know the drop.

If we do not view 150 fps as important and these agonizing to and fro's about this and that or the aspects in the minutia of all things shooting we may just as well give up and simply resign ourselves to shoot everything with a simple 30-06 ! All be damned and simply use one caliber one rifle and thats the end of that..... something like communism in shooting.

Winchester got it right the first time with the original Alaskan--25 in barrel.

I love mine

Alf is at least fundamentally right. I think 150 FPS is ballistically significant though you won't be loosing that from 26-24" and probably not even 26-22. I have 3 338s with 24" barrels, 2 started off with 26" barrels I lost MAYBE 30 fps out of them. Brad says he gets about 2680 with a 250 out of a 22" barrel. That looses about 50 yards to my 24" guns that are at 2750. To some that might be important. I don't mind 24 inch guns but do mind 26 inch ones, everyone has their comforts. I have found that a balanced rifle where the muzzle doesn't have a lot of momentum, doesn't seem as long in the bush. There is no doubt however an equally balanced shorter barrel is more handy. The real answer is: chop it to 22"s and then buy a 340 wby.

I have never found a rifle with a 2" shorter barrel hanging up in the bush any more or any less than a barrel 2" longer. The only time I have ever thought about it is when tracking Elk on horseback and I have to pull a long gun out of a scabbard.

When on the ground in Africa, I am more vigilant of every thorn bush (which is every bush) wanting to rip the flesh off my legs and arms than I am worried about the barrel length of my rifle.

I believe folks are overthinking the whole barrel length thingy.

Ill restate my post so as not to confuse..I don't really give a damn how long or short my barrel is within reason, I can make that adjustment if need be, but never found it to matter much from a hunters stand point..I use carbines when I hunt horse back. When walking or driving for spot and stalk I normally, but not necessarily, opt for a 24 or 26 inch barrel...I like a 26 inch barrel for off hand and running shots, but a heavy 20 inch works as well... I have yet to notice that the deer or elk could tell the difference in a 150 FPS with even my 25-35 or 30-30. bottom line is shot placement and bullet construction. Ive shot elk with my 25-35 with 117 gr. WW soft points or Rem corelokt factory ammo at about 2000 FPS in a 20 inch carbine and with my handloads at 2300 FPS. neither I nor the elk knew the difference. but Im talking strictly from a hunters point of view..If I need more velocity I would just just use a bigger hammer.

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
Ray,

Do you have an idea how much extra the bullet would drop at 300 yards giving up 120 fps?

Corey

Using Hornady's online ballistic calculator plugging in data for my own handloaded 225 TTSX from my 26 inch XBolt using Brian Litz tested B.C. for that bullet using a G7 profile, the difference in drop at 300 yards between 2825 FPS and 2705 FPS is three tenths of an inch.

http://www.hornady.com/ballist...allistics-calculator

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:

quote:

Originally posted by wildcat junkie:

quote:

Originally posted by JeffreyPhD:
A while back I acquired a Browning X Bolt 338 Win Mag. It has a 26" barrel. So far I haven't choreographed anything with it. In general though, is there a consensus about optimal barrel length for a 338 Win? I'm thinking it would be more handy in thick areas with a somewhat shorter barrel, probably 24". The 338 Win Mag doesn't seem like a large capacity cartridge (relative to bore diameter) that would need a 26" tube. What say AR gun geeks?

Why is a 26" barrel on a shotgun considered "short" (even on a pump or auto-loader) & ideal for thick cover yet a 26" barrel on a rifle is considered "long"?

Generally, if bird hunting with a shotgun, you don't walk much with it, especially in the bush.

Corey

You don't hunt Ruffed Grouse do you?

Or ruffled francolin or guinea fowl. Once they are ruffled you will really walk.

quote:

Using Hornady's online ballistic calculator plugging in data for my own handloaded 225 TTSX from my 26 inch XBolt using Brian Litz tested B.C. for that bullet using a G7 profile, the difference in drop at 300 yards between 2825 FPS and 2705 FPS is three tenths of an inch.

You might want to re-do your figures. I just ran the difference between 2825fps and 2705 fps with the 225TTSX (Litz-G7 BC) on the JBMballistics website with a 2.1" maximum height above line-of-sight at 4000 feet elevation and the different drops at 300 yards were -6.3" and -7.7".
The difference was -1.4". That is significant to me, though manageable.

I have four .338 caliber rifles: a WM, Edge, and 2 LMs. The Edge and one LM wear 26 inch bbls; the other LM is 30. My WM, which kills all the game, wears a 24 inch barrel; I have never wanted it shorter or longer.

There is one subtle point about short bbls, not necessarily an issue with .338s: a longer barrel paints a much longer arc when you swing the barrel, so for whitetail hunting I much prefer my 20 inch .308. It is also easier to keep in my lap, since the weight is between my hands.

I also prefer my 20 inch R77 full stocked .243 when calling coyotes since it is easier to get in and out of the truck.

I would never bob my .338 WM to 22 inches, but I did cut my .416 Remington to 21 inches. What advantage a 24 inch barrel gave me is a mystery to me: that gun has shot the longest range Cape buff I have ever seen documented: 350 yards by our very own Wendell Reich. He beat my longest by 42 yards.

As for shotguns, I prefer 26 inch barrels but my 30 inch Win Mod 101 sure does swing better...

I find these drop figures ridiculas, If one can tell the difference in 1.5 inches or 5 inches for that matter at 400 to 500 yards, and under field conditions, then a miracle has taken place.

Every inch or two goes into overall calculations, whether or not one can see them in the field.

And the earlier poster suggested that the difference was only 0.3" which was just wrong and not data to be used in deciding loads.

I suppose if one is anal about such things then he is in his cups, and good on him! I on the other hand can wiggle off a foot or wiggle on a foot at 500 yards, especially if Im chewing gum!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I find these drop figures ridiculas, If one can tell the difference in 1.5 inches or 5 inches for that matter at 400 to 500 yards, and under field conditions, then a miracle has taken place.

We are NOT talking about 400-500 yards. We want to know the facts about bullet drop at 300 yards with a velocity drop of 120 fps.

Thus far we have 1/3" and 1.4"

Please keep on topic or refrain from trying to steer this topic away from the truth.

(There has been 99.99% focus on our vocabularly of velocity difference, in all conversations on this forum. It means nothing. Bullet drop should be the focus.)

AR--

One item that you may need to control if discussing drop at 300 yards is keeping the maximum height above the line-of-sight the same. For example, if one keeps a zero the same, say 200 or 250 yards, then the 300-yard drop may not be very different because the slower bullet will use a higher arc getting out to the zero and show up with less drop at 300 yards than if the same max height had been maintained.

When I do calculations I keep the overall maximum height limited to 2.1" over the line-of-sight. That ensures that a hunter does not shoot high at 150 yards, something I sometimes noticed thirty++ years ago when I was first learning about optimum point-blank ranges. For example, 3" zeros at 100 yards with a 223 could mean potential highs of 4-5" at 150-200 yards, which is too high when shooting at little oribis.

At speeds of 2700-2800 the max height will be pretty close to 100-125 yards and a 2" zero can be used at 100 yards. However, as velocities raise up to 3000fps and faster with lighter bullets, then the 100-yard zero needs to start dropping to 1.9", 1.8" and lower.

Also, if a higher maximum arc is used the 'flat part' of the arc spreads out farther away and the drop-off at 300 yards is not as pronounced. Again, one needs to be careful to compare apples with apples.

quote:

Originally posted by JeffreyPhD:
A while back I acquired a Browning X Bolt 338 Win Mag. It has a 26" barrel. So far I haven't choreographed anything with it. In general though, is there a consensus about optimal barrel length for a 338 Win? I'm thinking it would be more handy in thick areas with a somewhat shorter barrel, probably 24". The 338 Win Mag doesn't seem like a large capacity cartridge (relative to bore diameter) that would need a 26" tube. What say AR gun geeks?

Personally, I would go with a 24" barrel. But, I hunt with various cartridges with barrels 20-24". If I were trying to achieve the ultimate velocities I would go with 26".

Opinions differ, some certainly like 26" barrels. Optimal for use and optimal for velocity can differ. And there is the compromise 25".

As is stated many times, you can always remove the excess length easily.

Make a hunt or two with it at 26". If you don't like it, cut it.

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
I have a Win M70 .338 that has a 21.5" barrel, before everyone screams "muzzle blast" and "low velocity", "might as well have a 338/06" just hear me out.
Mine gets 2845 fps with a 225 grain bullet (70.5 gr IMR 4350) shoots tiny groups and does not have any noticeable muzzle blast any worse than anything else I shoot.
So having said that I would say the optimum length of barrel for a .338 WM is up to you, anything from 21.5" to 26" seems to work.
If you are hell bent on shortening yours have it chopped at 22 or 23 and never look back.

Excellent post!

I thought so too........

Doesn't matter in the least how short your barrel is if you are getting great velocity and accuracy.

I am telling you, this is a perfect opportunity to chop the 338 to 22" then build a 340 on a 700 action and put a 24" barrel on it.

"700"?
Ruger's controlled feed are called 77 (Hawkeye).

Seriously, though, I don't think that controlled-feed or not means anything for non-dangerous game rifles. And I sure wish that in-expensive, mass-produced 338/375Rugers would become available, since that puts 340 capacity in a standard length action. But that is a different, older thread.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
"700"?
Ruger's controlled feed are called 77 (Hawkeye).

Seriously, though, I don't think that controlled-feed or not means anything for non-dangerous game rifles. And I sure wish that in-expensive, mass-produced 338/375Rugers would become available, since that puts 340 capacity in a standard length action. But that is a different, older thread.

It be a decent cartridge and if it existed people would be saying the 338 win mag is for 22" barrels but the 338 Ruger is for 24". I like my 340 at 24"s

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
AR--

One item that you may need to control if discussing drop at 300 yards is keeping the maximum height above the line-of-sight the same.
Also, if a higher maximum arc is used the 'flat part' of the arc spreads out farther away and the drop-off at 300 yards is not as pronounced. Again, one needs to be careful to compare apples with apples.

Thanks Bro.!

After reading this entire thread, including the calculated bullet drop of approximately 1.4" @ 300 yards by losing 120 fps; I would say it might be a good idea to limit the drop to around an inch.

That would be like chopping a 24" barrel down to 22.5"

Therefore, 22.5" is probably the best choice for field handling without affecting actual shooting drop.

22.5" also has a very acceptable muzzle blast and should pose slightly more accurate than a 24" (barrel whip)


Corey

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
After reading this entire thread, including the calculated bullet drop of approximately 1.4" @ 300 yards by losing 120 fps; I would say it might be a good idea to limit the drop to around an inch.

That would be like chopping a 24" barrel down to 22.5"

Therefore, 22.5" is probably the best choice for field handling without affecting actual shooting drop.

22.5" also has a very acceptable muzzle blast and should pose slightly more accurate than a 24" (barrel whip)


Corey

I think that you will be happy with 22.5" and maybe positively surprised.

I would only expect a velocity drop of 40-50 fps, not 100. Your 300 yard drop differential will be around -0.5", max.

Stay with 4350 group of powders (Acc, IMR, H4350, Rel 16 and 17, IMR 4451) rather than 4831's. My wife has a Tikka 270Win with a 22.4" barrel that does very well with Rel-17. If you have time and money you could try Vihtavuori N540.

It seems to me that the barrel on the M70 Alaskan 338 made in 1960 was 25" and that was back when Winchester made things right.

Wow!

I just checked the Barnes website and they have updated their load data :

http://www.barnesbullets.com/f...014/11/338WinMag.pdf

Using RL17 in a compressed load of 73.3 grains, the 185 TTSX is absolutely smoking out of a 24" barrel at 3162 fps!

Chopping that barrel down to 22.5" would probably lose 70-75 fps. I don't know how to input those figures into the drop program but I am guessing it would be somewhere around 0.35"

Very acceptable performance going to the shorter barrel with max. loads! No problem for a 185 TTSX moving that fast; to easily zip through a massive Yukon bull moose too at 300 yards!

Yes, that would be 'wow'. Thank you for calling attention to the new Barnes data.

I ran the trajectories for you maintaining +2.1" max-height at 4000 ft elev.
For 3162 fps the 185TTSX drops -4.0" at 300 yards.
For 3102 fps the drop is -4.4" at 300 yards.

Some better news is that a 1.5" barrel chop should only drop the published velocity about 45fps. I used 60fps as a worst-case guess.

However, please note that Barnes was using Remington cases, which are sometimes a little smaller in capacity, so you might need to increase the powder by 1/2 grain to match their load, and of course, their barrel and yours will have their own unique friction and fit, affecting velocity +/-100fps. Since their barrel is already about 150 ftlbs over the 'normal' 338 WM loads, I would guess that your rifle might shoot 50fps slower at 24". You'll have to check. Realistically, your own 22.5" barrel should be shooting between 3040-3120fps. Not too shabby. And at 300 yards you are talking a difference of -1/2" inch from your 24" barrel. Of course at 400 yards that difference in barrel length produces ... a -1.0" greater drop (-15.5" total drop at 400yards).

Happy developing. I'm glad I'm not a moose in the Yukon.

This thread convinces me I should be drinking more again. Jiminy Christmas

And the earlier poster suggested that the difference was only 0.3" which was just wrong and not data to be used in deciding loads.[/QUOTE]

I just ran it again and it still showed 3 tenths of an inch difference at 300 yards. This is with using a 260 yard zero. The intent of the 260 yard zero is to keep the trajectory roughly 3 inches or so either above or below the aiming point out to 300 yards. Sort of a modified MPR method to make use of the bullet's trajectory. (This is how I sight in my rifles as 300 yards is my self imposed limit) The only variable I am changing in Hornady's online calculator is the velocity.

If we zero the rifle with both loads at 300 yards there will be no difference in bullet drop at 300 yards. Both loads will impact where we aim at 300 yards. There will obviously be a difference in bullet trajectory out to 300 yards. In other words, the bullets won't impact to the same point at 100 yards with a 300 yard zero. If we zero the rifle at 260 yards there will be three tenths of an inch bullet drop at 300 yards according to Hornady's calculator. If we zero the rifle at 200 yards there will be more drop at 300 yards and if we zero the rifle at 100 yards there will be an even greater drop at 300 yards. It's relative to the distance we zero the rifle.

Here are the results cut and pasted below.
=====================================================================
Your Input Variables

Ballistic Coefficient 0.253 Velocity (ft/s) 2825 Weight (grains) 225
Maximum Range (yds) 500 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G7
Sight Height (inches) 1.6 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 260
Wind Speed (mph) 0 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 0
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78

Ballistics Results - 225 TTSX

Range (yards) Velocity (fps) Energy (ft.-lb.) Trajectory (in) Come UP in MOA Come UP in Mils Wind Drift (in) Wind Drift in MOA Wind Drift in Mils

Muzzle 2825 3987 -1.6 0 0 0 0 0
100 2646 3497 3.1 -3 -0.9 0 0 0
200 2473 3055 2.9 -1.4 -0.4 0 0 0
300 2306 2657 -3.1 1 0.3 0 0 0
400 2146 2300 -15.6 3.7 1.1 0 0 0
500 1991 1981 -35.7 6.8 2 0 0 0
===================================================================
Your Input Variables

Ballistic Coefficient 0.253 Velocity (ft/s) 2705 Weight (grains) 225
Maximum Range (yds) 500 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G7
Sight Height (inches) 1.6 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 260
Wind Speed (mph) 0 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 0
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78

Ballistics Results - 225 TTSX

Range (yards) Velocity (fps) Energy (ft.-lb.) Trajectory (in) Come UP in MOA Come UP in Mils Wind Drift (in) Wind Drift in MOA Wind Drift in Mils


Muzzle 2705 3655 -1.6 0 0 0 0 0
100 2530 3197 3.5 -3.3 -1 0 0 0
200 2361 2785 3.2 -1.5 -0.4 0 0 0
300 2198 2415 -3.4 1.1 0.3 0 0 0
400 2042 2083 -17.2 4.1 1.2 0 0 0
500 1892 1788 -39.4 7.5 2.2 0 0 0

http://www.hornady.com/ballist...allistics-calculator