300RUM or 338Lapua for 400 yard deer shots. 300 RUM or 338 RUM?

For deer only I use my 7mmstw's.They shoot as flat or flatter than the other cartridges mentioned and have plenty of power for any deer with less recoil than the other cartridges mentioned.I use my 300ultramags for elk and moose.

kimber222, There are not a whole hell of a lot of places in W.VA to shoot 400 yards!!! And the need to "kill on both ends" for a whitetail does not exist!!! There are a whole gamit of cartridges that will suffice for whitetails at that distance!!! First to come to mind is the 25-06 using 115's or 117's or 120's, then the .260 and the various 6.5's using 120's or 140's and then the 7mm's come about....7mm-08, 7"whoevers lttle short fat case you choose", 7mmMag, now we get to the 30's!!! .308, 30-06, "whoevers magnum or short version you choose"!!!!! "How dead is dead?" The need for a 300RUM or a 338 does not exist in the eastern United States and probably the Western part too!!! Unless you have an affection for getting the dog doo doo kicked out of you at the drop of the hammer!!! 350-400 yard deer shots...not running but time to take a rest....anything over the 6mmRem is overkill!!!! Which eyeball do you want to see disappear? GHD

If those are your 3 choices, the best one for deer is the 300 RUM. No need for a 338 of any kind on deer. The big 30's are plenty powerful, and the RUM is nice and fast.

stubblejumper is right!

No need for any of those on deer only. I'd suggest a 7mm rem. mag. but if you want unique, semi-wildcat or proprietary, then I gotta throw in the .264 win mag, 7mm Dakota, 7mmSTW.


If you want something current and short, then 6.5 Leopard (264x270WSM) 270 or 7mm WSM.

If you absolutely want .30 cal, then: .300 Win Mag, .300 Dakota, maybe .300 Weatherby.

For what it's worth, almost any standard cartridge in .270, .308, 7mm-08, 30-06 will kill deer very dead out to 400 yards IF you place the RIGHT bullet in the vital zone.

I would say the .257 Weatherby low recoil and shoots super flat

I really like my .300RUM. I trust it for long shots, even on deer-sized animals. It kicks some off the bench, but you don't notice it at all when you're hunting.

And you can use it on elk/moose sized animals, too.

Did I mention I like mine?

Steve

For 300 to 400 yard shots on deer I'd go with the one with less recoil and I really think the two listed are over kill for deer at those ranges. A 270 would be as perfect as it gets for deer at those ranges with bullet drop difference being nothing worth comparing to your two big magnums.

If you were talking elk moose and griz at 400, we'll thats a whole different game.

I set up my 7mm Rem Mag as my antelope gun with a 400 yard zero. It works fine.

For these loooong shots on deer, I love my Weatherby in 270 Weatherby mag. Last long shot was 500+ yards. Just my $0.02 worth.

Best,
Brad

I'll throw in here too. You can get to 400yds for deer/antelope w/ just about anything bigger than a .243/6mm. The big RUMS are just alot of punishment for???? I have a 7mmDakota for those longish shots, haven't had to take one over 150yds yet, go figure. A .270/.280 would be about right, even the .260, maybe the .25-06.

A 270 Win would be plenty.

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3x62:
A 270 Win would be plenty.

Agree. Add a ballistic compensating reticle and a rangefinder and the problem becomes dealing with windage.

Waaaaaayyyyyy too many hunters worry about elevation, which is very predictable, and never mention what they will do about windage. Target shooters like me think the opposite way.

Hello HP Shooter,
You are right that the "wind" factor is rarely mentioned by hunters at these extreme ranges. Could be that instead of trying to put that hole in the paper on the X and at least touching the 10 ring line, they are trying to hit the "bread basket..." of the critter (large target) and unless the wind is really howling, it still works OK.
Close ranges of 3-400 yards (close for match shooting that is) does not take a bunch of wind adjustment so again, not much thought is given to it as it would be at 600 and on out to the 1K mark. Shooting at game at ranges beyond the 350 mark and knowing how the wind does impact on the flight of the bullet, would keep me from taking the shot, but to each his own.
Another reason would be that the rifle being shot in a match vs a sporting/hunting rifle is a whole world apart in accuracy and loads and sight equipment to say nothing of having a very solid prone position w/ good sling vs some flimsy bipod or stump as a rest to shoot from. I can not recall of recent past any of the hunting videos a hunter using a sling for shooting?? Believe it is almost a lost art these days. Not to start an uproar, but using those goofy looking "sticks" reminds me of the famous remark made by California's "terminator" Arnold, 'girly men..." What do ya think, HP, is that incoming I hear???
Favor Center!!
dsiteman

dsiteman, perhaps you are right about the more forgiving target in a game animal's vital area. Still, the fact that wind is hardly ever mentioned by shooters who are exclusively hunters leads me to wonder if they have considered it at all. My conversations with some personal acquaintances who shoot only to hunt leads me to believe that more often than not they don't. Elevation (and flat shooting rifles) is the end of their thought process.

You're right about sling usage. All my hunting rifles wear the same USGI M1 sling with QD sling swivels. I can don that sling as quickly or more than most hunters take to set up using sticks. Not only that, I can use it as a hasty sling faster than shooting sticks would ever be. As you know, us target shooters understand how to use our bones for support in conjunction with a sling. A skill that most hunters seem ignorant of these days.

All I have to do to confirm that impression is watch hunting shows on TV.

This application of ultramags to whitetails is a mystery to me. How big are the whitetails in your neck of the woods, anyway?

My theory is that people want these thunderguns because they want to have the biggest gun at the range. They can't afford to take them to Alaska or Africa where they are actually useful, so they turn them loose on the local whitetails and coyotes. Like the idiot down here who bought a 416 Rigby for wild hog hunting. Oh well, to each their own.

Any competent shot with a good rest can reliably kill whitetails at 400 yards with a .270Win, NO problem. That's PLENTY of gun. A gutshot deer isn't going to be any easier to deal with just because you gutshot it with an ultramag.

You don't need an Ultra-Gag for hunting deer at any range. SJ's 7mm STW would be a better choice.

You can also get by very well with a 7mm Rem. Mag., .300 Win. Mag., .264 Win. Mag., etc., etc., etc., etc.........

I use a .300 Win. Mag. for most of my hunting, and I've found it to perform very well on medium-size game at ranges over 400 yds. I haven't found the need for a faster .300 for hunting any game of this size at any distance. Learn the rifle, learn yourself, put in plenty of practice, and the rest comes easy. An Ultra-Gag won't make up for any deficiency in those departments -- not now and not ever.

Quite honestly, I think for most guys the U-Gs are not only unnecessary, but because of noise and recoil a great hindrance.

AD

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
You don't need an Ultra-Gag for hunting deer at any range. SJ's 7mm STW would be a better choice.
AD

The STW and RUM are virtual ballistic twins, why is the former OK and the latter excessive?

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3x62:

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
You don't need an Ultra-Gag for hunting deer at any range. SJ's 7mm STW would be a better choice.
AD

The STW and RUM are virtual ballistic twins, why is the former OK and the latter excessive?

Because one is a Remington?

quote:

The STW and RUM are virtual ballistic twins, why is the former OK and the latter excessive?

Because the RUM takes alot more powder to get basically the same vel. I think it's in that "overbore" catagory.
HP is right of course, wind is the 800# gorilla on the sofa that no one wants to think about when hunting. That's what gets me about the LR "hunters", but that's a diff. story. High mountain winds have kept me from taking shots on several occasions, making me get closer or passing the shot.

Way toooo far for me, I just can't dope wind that well.

Sorry, I guess the difference seems odd to note when we're talking 90ish grains of powder for a 7mm...

While you certainly don't need the Ultramag to kill a deer, the guy might like one. I sort of stumbled unwillingly into mine, as the rifle I wanted was only available to me locally in that chambering. And I felt ridiculous with the super-duper magnum. But I really like it now.

About the wind: it's one of the reasons I like the .300 UltraMag (or any of the other hated overbore magnums) for longer range shooting where you have to calculate and compensate for windage. It shoots flat with big, heavy wind-cheating 180grain Nosler Partitions.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by skl1:
About the wind: it's one of the reasons I like the .300 UltraMag (or any of the other hated overbore magnums) for longer range shooting where you have to calculate and compensate for windage. It shoots flat with big, heavy wind-cheating 180grain Nosler Partitions.

Steve

Yep, much easier than learning to shoot in the wind.

quote:

Still, the fact that wind is hardly ever mentioned by shooters who are exclusively hunters leads me to wonder if they have considered it at all.

HP Shooter:

Whenever there is a string on LR shooting at game, I ALWAYS bring up the wind. What I don't understand is how anyone can think they can reliably hit a deer past 1000 yards - at that range a 1/2 mph wind can cause a reasonable chance at a miss.

These guys should shoot competitively - they would have a room full of cups and trophies to go along with all those trohpies shot at long range.

[/QUOTE]

Yep, much easier than learning to shoot in the wind.[/QUOTE]

HP shooter,

I should have anticipated the snide comment. You still have to dope the wind; it's just that you can reliably dope it out further with heavier bullets.

I knew pointing out an advantage of the UM's was a bad idea, because it's obvious that anyone doing so must not know how to dope the wind, right?

That's why you always shoot a .45-70 for long-range shooting, I'll bet. Because anybody who shoots a .270 must not be able to learn to adjust elevation. Come on!

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Still, the fact that wind is hardly ever mentioned by shooters who are exclusively hunters leads me to wonder if they have considered it at all.

HP Shooter:
What I don't understand is how anyone can think they can reliably hit a deer past 1000 yards - at that range a 1/2 mph wind can cause a reasonable chance at a miss.

These guys should shoot competitively - they would have a room full of cups and trophies to go along with all those trohpies shot at long range.

You're right. They should show up at Camp Perry every year and clean the clocks off Mid Thompkins, the Gallagher girls, David Tubb, et. al. But the funny thing is that none of those braggarts ever do show up.

I have some very strong opinions about those "hunters" who shoot at game at distances where sighting shots are needed. I'll keep them to myself, though.

At some point it ceases to be a hunt.

quote:

Sorry, I guess the difference seems odd to note when we're talking 90ish grains of powder for a 7mm...

Actually about 90gr for the 7mm ultramag and 80gr for the 7mmstw both using 140gr bullets.The velocity difference in my rifles is from 50fps to 70fps.However the original poster was talking about the 300ultramag,not the 7mm ultramag.

quote:

Actually about 90gr for the 7mm ultramag and 80gr for the 7mmstw both using 140gr bullets.The velocity difference in my rifles is from 50fps to 70fps.

I guess I had 140s and Retumbo in mind, which is about 90 and 96, respectively. But whatever, it is still a ridiculous amount of powder either way. I'll stick with my 270 recommendation... to each his own.

quote:

I'll stick with my 270 recommendation... to each his own.

Everyone has his/her own favorites.Personally I will never own a 270 of any variety.

Hello,
Don't think any offense meant by mine and HP discussion about wind doping, but would offer a real basic formula for those interested in doping the wind. Not perfect, but better than a straight out guess.
Estimate the range or know the range by a range finder, forget about exact "clock" direction the wind is coming from for difficult to tell-it is either from the right or left and adjust into the wind, estimate speed, velocity of wind and use the following:
R (range to target) x V (wind veloicity) / 1000= MOA adjustment. Example: 500 yards x 10 mph = 5000/1000=5 MOA (minutes of angle)
Not the right answer for that would be more adjustment than you would want. Reason is that you do not know the clock direction the wind is travelling so the constant of 1000 is a compromise for all the possible directions, that is 1 o'clock to 7 o'clock, 10 o'clock to 4 o'clock, etc. Take half of the 5 moa and you will be pretty darn close to being on. I would put on 2.5 moa adj. in this example either right or left, again into the wind. At 500 yards that would be 12.5 inches.

Truth of the matter is that most hunting situations do not permit such studied effort and pretty much useless data for sporting/civilian marksmanship and if you have to go through all this exercise, probably a good reason not to take the shot.
Someone mentioned that a little wind at 1000 yards would move a great deal and if you have a 1 mph wind at that distance with a 308 or '06 class cartridge, the movement by such a wind would be approx. 1 moa or in inches, 10 inches for a full value wind. If I took half of that, or 1/2 moa adjustment, I would shift the point of impact 5 inches one way or the other. 1 moa at 1000 yards is 10" Again, data for the military/match shooter and not of use to sporting rifles and game targets, but interesting to see the results and how accurate you can judge the wind and place the shot.
Favor Center!!
dsiteman

quote:

Everyone has his/her own favorites.Personally I will never own a 270 of any variety.

Well, in truth I prefer a 7x64 or a 280 myself, but the 270 is a fine choice (ballistically at least) nonetheless. Pretty boring, however, to be sure...

quote:

Well, in truth I prefer a 7x64 or a 280 myself, but the 270 is a fine choice (ballistically at least) nonetheless. Pretty boring, however, to be sure...

Actually my reasoning for not owning a 270 is that I think that it is larger than necessary for deer yet on the small side for elk and moose.My personal favorite bore size for deer is the .257 and I prefer the 7mm and up for elk and moose.My reason for using the 7mmstw for deer is that I originally had two built to use for all of my big game hunting(from pronghorn to moose) and I liked the rifles so much that I kept them for deer sized game when I started using the 300ultramags for elk and moose.

I have a tack-driving ultralight 257 Roberts I pieced together a years ago - what a sweet 300 yd. deer rifle. I'm itching to try those new 110 gr accubonds at 2900ish fps, might be an excellent whitetail/muley combo for next season in MT. I have a particular fondness for the 6.5x57 as well... For elk, I skip up to the 338-06 or there abouts.

I like all the "ballistics" I can get for long range. Of course the big diameter bullets will recoil hard.

High velocity along with an excellent ballistic coeficient does matter over ordinary velocities or bullets.

But even my 264 drops, drifts and takes a while to get to 400 yds.

Starting the 120 gr BT's at 3350 fps with a 250 yd zero calculates to a 11" drop at 400 yds. Thats a lot. Also the drift at a right angle for a 10 mph wind is 9.5" and what if it takes a step at only 5 mph? Then it will move 3 feet. That's worse than the wind if it happens.

Not only that but I can't really tell 300 yds from 250 or 350 for that matter. When I hunt open fields I am glad for the laser. Before that it was bad guessing.

I try to get closer. I really wanted to shoot at a deer at 450 yds last season. Something made me try to get closer and I got lucky as another showed at what was 190 yds. I shot at that one. I really like the idea of long range rifles and think about it a lot. For target shooting ok but I don't want to wound a game animal. That would bother me.

SJ, this is completely out of curiosity. How much do your STW's and RUM's weigh. Thanks.

Chuck

Wow alot of responce. Let me clarify what I am trying to do. I have a Lapua now, and love it. Do I realy need it, no. Although it has taken deer out to 550yds. Here is the problem, it is a right hand Sako and I am a left hand shooter. What can I get that will replace it that is left handed. I guess that is my real question.

k222,

I can't keep up with the left handed questions. A buddy of mine has owned over 950 guns and is left handed. He just reaches over and works the bolt.

Chuck-My 7mmstw's weight right around 9-1/4lbs with scope mounted.My 300ultramags weigh around 9-3/4lbs with scope mounted.I have carried the stw's on backpack sheep hunts and didn't find the weight to be a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by kimber222:
300RUM or 338Lapua for 400 yard deer shots. 300 RUM or 338 RUM?

I think a 6.5X55 with something like a 140 gr Partition at 2700 fps will be enough.