Why belt headspacing viewed as a problem? :

http://www.leeprecision.com/ht...log/dies-collet.html

I don't think that headspacing on the belt per se is viewed as a problem. What is a problem, is that manufacturing tolerances for belts are pretty ample and/or factory magnum chambers tend to be cut on the large side. Maybe they have to be to cope with large tolerances on belts?? Who knows, chicken and egg, perhaps??

In any event, if you reload and size your brass to headspace on the belt every time, because of the ample dimensions of most magnum chambers, your brass won't last too long. You simply work it too hard - large expansion upon firing, large contraction with resizing. For case longevity, it is better to have (bottle necked) magnum cases headspace on the shoulder, and you can ensure this by correct die setup.

- mike

Exactly.

Buy a Lee Collet and use that for a good 3-4 firings.

Then you can also use a Redding Body die to bump the shoulder back to fit the chamber again.

I just load my belted cases just like I do my non-belted cases and headspace off the shoulder.

Most people that have loaded belted mags for any period of time have realized long ago that it's critical to get the shoulder dimension to a minimum.
I've been using collet dies and body dies for a long time...along with a headspace/bushing measuring tool.
One of the problems is that most belted mag brass seems to come from the factory with the shoulder set back alot. It's one of the first firings that stretches the brass and set's it up for failure later on.
Even with moving the shoulder back only .001-.002 per loading most my belted brass shows stress above the belt in 5-6 loadings.
I would not hunt with ammo that doesn't have a tad of headspace so I don't develope loads with zero headspace either. I'm sure someone will chime in with some excellent brass life by running milder loads and not bumping the shoulder back.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I just load my belted cases just like i do my non-belted cases and headspace off the shoulder.

Exactly!

What Fjold said
+2

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
What Fjold said
+2

Me too. What problem? +3
Bear in Fairbanks

I even use a thin washer between the shell holder and the 375 H&H Lee collet die, to reduce the headspace to a minimum.

I am going to start loading for my 300 WM and have never loaded belted cartridges before. So you don't have to headspace off the belt? You can headspace from the shoulder like a non belted bottleneck cartridge?

Correct. If you FL size it is simply a matter of adjusting your die accordingly.

- mike

What many do not realize is that there are 2 dimensions that you have to take into consideration with belted cases. One is "headspace" which is measured from the front of the belt. The other is "head clearance" which is measured on the shoulder.

Like kraky said, there is a lot of "head clearance" on new belted mag cases which would not have a lot of "headspace". It is hard to measure headspace on a belted mag but I have worked out a way to do it and for instance on a custom 6.5 rem mag chamber I have zero headspace but have .017" head clearance.

The head clearance can be measured with a Hornady Headspace gauge which measures on the shoulder close to the datum line



When firing new cases the front of the belt will prevent the case from moving forward in the chamber but the shoulder still needs to move forward to fit the chamber. That is when the damage is done but it will not cause a case failure unless reinforced by continually pushing the shoulder back too far and causing more expansion and thinning.

I keep track of several "head clearances" on different guns and have taken these measurements with the Hornady Headspace gauges on the difference between new cases and fully fire formed cases:

338 win mag Mato - .027"
300 win mag Mato - .0195"
264 win mag pre-64 Model 70 - .0295"
264 win mag post-64 Model 70 - .038"

The cases would have to expand that much whether you are using a Lee Collet/Redding Body Die or not. The problem is with the brass manufacturers as much as it is with the rifle manufacturers. Essentially the rifle manufacturers do not have to worry about excess head clearance since the belt is going to stop forward movement anyway and their go-no-go gauges tell them that they are manufacturing to SAAMI specs anyway.

As long as you initially Fire Form the Cases and then P-FLR them using a regular FL Die Set so the bolt closes with just a bit of resistance, there are no problems. Doing that, there is no Headspace, Head Clearance, nor Shoulder Space problem at all with Belted nor Non-Belted Cases.

Nothing tricky or complex about it - unless you just want to make it harder to do. Oh yes, no "Thingys" needed - nor wanted.

Still can't figure out why you couldn't make the stoney point headspace gauge work. Mine works perfectly....reads consistanty...you seem to be the only one to be negative about it??

I try not to over think things. "Couse then, I'm not german; I'm like the bumble bee. If I have too many thingies, I might discover that I can't fly. Or that I can't get 8 or 10 or more reloads from a belted case. Or that I'm suppose to flinch 'cause I'm shooting a boomer instead of a lesser cartridge.
All's I know is what I do works for me.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

The cases would have to expand that much whether you are using a Lee Collet/Redding Body Die or not.

First shot only, new brass.

Then no FL sizing.

Just collet neck size.

Then barely bump shoulder back with body die after cases fail to chamber from a few neck sizes.

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
Still can't figure out why you couldn't make the stoney point headspace gauge work. Mine works perfectly....reads consistanty...you seem to be the only one to be negative about it??

Hey kraky, I promised not to tell, but HC confessed he has a comparator also and was surprised when I confronted him with his use of a "thingy". I think it was a Sinclair comparator but I was laughing so hard I forgot! It just chaps his a$$ that we don't do things like they used to do in the "good old days".

Seems like HC would be perfectly happy if he could make a rifle with a whittling knife, duct tape and baling wire.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...HC confessed he has a comparator ...a Sinclair comparator but I was laughing so hard I forgot! ...

How could I possibly talk "BAD" about Thingys if I hadn't at least tried them?!?!?!

Actually, the Sinclair Comparitor works pretty good. About the same as using a Socket out of the Tool Box, except you already have bunches of sockets.
-----

quote:

By Kraky: (something Gabby Hayes used to say a good bit)
Still can't figure out why you couldn't make the stoney point headspace gauge work. Mine works perfectly....reads consistanty...you seem to be the only one to be negative about it??

Beats me too. I'm normally pretty good figuring out and using mechanical devices. It was given to me by a buddy, Don, who found it would not give consistent measurements. Same for me, so it might have gone to another buddy for a couple of weeks. But wherever it went, it came back to me and then back to Don. It is probably in a Landfill now.

Since we go by a "Snug" Bolt closure, that measurement is a waste of time for us. And since the Kiss-the-Lands distance for a Bullet is more accurate with the Cleaning Rod Method, we do not need that feature either.Basically a total waste of money and any effort expended trying to get it to read consistently. Sure dosen't mean that ALL you folks shouldn't buy one though.

quote:

Then barely bump shoulder back with body die after cases fail to chamber from a few neck sizes

At last, somone has said it! In my experience, after using the Lee Collet neck sizing dies in several magnum and non magnum calibers, eventually loaded rounds will fail to chamber. At this point you MUST use a FL die, either to "bump" the shoulder or, as I do for hunting rounds, FL size.
Peter.

Woods has got this figured out, and a darn good example

I read somewhere to take out the expander button to neck size/partial re-size. Any danger in doing this?

quote:

Originally posted by Fbull:
I read somewhere to take out the expander button to neck size/partial re-size. Any danger in doing this?

If you take out the expander then your bullet grip (ID of neck) will be dependent upon the brass thickness of your neck. That may work out or it may not.

For example I reload for a 300 Wtby that I only have a FL die for. If I take out the expander it will size the outside of the neck to .331". The inside of the neck is .305" which means I have a .003" bullet grip. That also means the brass neck thickness is .013" so everything works out.

However I wanted to use a FL die in another caliber and it sizes too small with a .005" bullet grip. In that example I could outside neck turn the brass to be thinner and could use the FL without the expander there also, but the gun is not mine and neck turning is too much work to do for someone else.

One thing you must have for hunting ammo is absolute reliability in feeding from your magazine into battery.
Some of the bizarre ideas that folks try to adapt to hunting ammo from the other disciplines never ceases to amaze me. While there is little danger of being charged by a wounded WT deer, the lose of a trophy animal because of a shell that refuses to chamber is very real. Or a trip being ruined whilst you try to clean powder out of a action because of a bullet jammed into the lands so you could get that extra .25" of accuracy is very real. FYI, The other day a newbie asked some generic question but he was working from the premise that you began working up a hunting load at 90% of the book value with the bullet into the lands.
Everybody loves to shoot those little, bitty groups, but if your hunting ammo doesn't slide from your magazine into the chamber like shit thru a tin horn, you're doing something wrong.
I use a simple flat washer between my press and the die. Whether you call that partial full length resizing or neck sizing, I don't care. It only sizes the neck part way down. And after a couple of reloads, a little doughnut forms at the shoulder. I think this helps align the case in the chamber more than anything else you can do. When I get ready to load up some hunting ammo, or if bolting the round home gets a little too stiff if I'm shooting from the bench, I take the washer out and full length resize the case and start over. I don't use any thingies.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
As long as you initially Fire Form the Cases and then P-FLR them using a regular FL Die Set so the bolt closes with just a bit of resistance, there are no problems. Doing that, there is no Headspace, Head Clearance, nor Shoulder Space problem at all with Belted nor Non-Belted Cases.
Nothing tricky or complex about it - unless you just want to make it harder to do. Oh yes, no "Thingys" needed - nor wanted.

EXACTLY!!

Well...the "thingy" just came in handy for me.
I pulled my 30-378 out of the gun safe to try a few of the newer ttsx's. My die was leaving the case mouths at about .303 inside. The ttsx's seated a little harder than I would have thought for that much grip.
Out of curiosity I broke out my "thingy"...stoney point tool as shown above.
I found that seating was pushing headspace back from the normal 1-2 thou anywhere up to 5 or 6 thousands. A lesson learned that will be carried forward to other casings. Will probably solve the problem with a double plunge over the expander ball on these dies in the future. But should I come accross harder seating with other casings...I will be glad I have the $35 tool I can use to see if things are affected or not.