What is the practical range of a 30-06 given the following parameters, for elk sized game.
-scoped bolt action
-24 inch barrel
-180 grain premium bullet
-max (safe) hand load
Thanks for any replies.

IMO it's good for 400 yards in the hands of a knowlegeable shooter.

at 2700 fps, MV..

300 yds easily...

If you can shoot or have a mildot scope reticle.. you can stretch that to 400 yds..

the 06 and the 180 grainers easily have the power to do the job...

a 300 Mag might buy you an extra 50 yds of point blank range.. but 2 clicks on the scope's elevation knob compensates for that....

an elk is usually 28 inches from backbone to chestbone...for deer I zero a rifle 3.5 inches high at 100 yds... for an elk, you are safe, changing that up to 4.5 inches high at 100 and you are still safe... but you have to do little compensation of your site...

some people argue against shooting at an elk at that range....but after shooting little bitty sage rats whom are the size of a 20 ounce pop can at 250 to 300 yds during the summer and spring... an elk at 400 yds is a pretty big target to me..

if you are looking at doing something along those lines.. I'd highly recommend spending time at the range and teaching your eyes to be able to shoot that far...

your caliber and load already have the ability to do so if you can get the bullet to where it needs to go.... they will do the rest...

shooting at 400 yds is no big deal if you practice it... it is your eyes and your brain that have to get use to shooting at that distance....

That and learn to make use of a rest in the field or learn to get into a prone position to shoot....without crawling the stock and getting hit in the forehead with the scope upon recoil..

cheers and good luck, eh?
seafire

long range will depend as much on your ability to read the wind and adjust for it.
about 7.5" at 300 yards w/ just a 10 MPH full value breeze with a 180gr w/ 2800 MV.
at 15 MPH its a bit over 11".
at 400 yards its 14" at 10 MPH and 21" at 15 MPH.

so if your shooting at a 10" vital area youll need to be accurate in you ability to read the wind.
also you need to look at time of flight. at 400 yards that bullet takes half a second to reach the target.
that may not sound like much but its enough time for an animal to take one step and move you point of aim 3 feet AFTER youve already sent a bullet down the barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Leo M:
What is the practical range of a 30-06 ...

Only as far as you can practice with it and still have 1500ft# of energy for Game that size to create ethical Kills in the forward 1/3rd of the Game.

Best of luck to you.

Unless you are really a good shot , The load should be able to take elk farther than you should be shooting.
A 180 grain bullet at 2800 delivers about 1500 FPE at 500 yards. (barnes manual) A good hit at that distance should do the job, but I ain't shooting that far.
...tj3006

Unless you are a very exceptional shooter, the old '06 is good a whole lot further than you are. I know mine is good a whold lot further than I am. Past 400 the wind reading becomes more important. I think there are people that can shoot the '06 accurately out to 1000 yards or better. I make no claim to being that good. About 400 is all I would take the chance at and might need some encouragement to do that one. It is not the rifle that is the limitation, it is the rifleman; his skill and his confidence after practice in varying conditions of shots. Wiedmanshiel. "D"

KStephens -

Excellent post, and I agree 100%. A lot of variables start to come into the equasion at 400 yards. These apply to all rounds, not just the .30-06.

Dave

300 yards with any caliber, beyond that things can happen..The 06 is a wonder round and can compete with the 300s in the field and has for many years...400 yards is iffy but doable most of the time, "most of the time" is the drawback and the recipe for wounded animals.

quote:

Originally posted by loud-n-boomer:
KStephens -

Excellent post, and I agree 100%. A lot of variables start to come into the equasion at 400 yards. These apply to all rounds, not just the .30-06.

Dave

That's a excellent comment and worth repeating. Even for the supermagnums this is still true!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by loud-n-boomer:
KStephens -

Excellent post, and I agree 100%. A lot of variables start to come into the equasion at 400 yards. These apply to all rounds, not just the .30-06.

Dave

That's a excellent comment and worth repeating. Even for the supermagnums this is still true!

Whatever you do, don't tell the Magnum Guys that... they get all bent out of shape when you criticize "Big Bertha"....

whatdaya mean git excited!!!! my crusty rusty 499 1/2 winington manglum will knock em ded at 4000 yards almust every time ya yust gotta use a quarter pound of blasto #5 and one of dem uranium bullits

Guy I reload for is shooting 165 Interbonds over 57.5grs H4350 and knockin' em dead at around 400 yds, or so he says. I do believe he is a very good shot or lucky, hasnt checked the rifle since I sighted in for him 3 years ago.

quote:

Posted by Hot Core:
Only as far as you can practice with it and still have 1500ft# of energy for Game that size to create ethical Kills in the forward 1/3rd of the Game.

I'm not picking a fight in any way but wanted to know how you reached the 1500 ft lb energy mark? I know Colorado reqires the use of a minimum or .243/6mm cal with 80 grains or more of bullet with 1000 ft lb of energy at 100 yards to hunt elk legally. I will not argue the more energy the better when hunting any big game animal, but is this your personal way you measure performance on elk?

750-1000fp would seem more realistic to me, assuming an appropriate caliber, bullet type and bullet weight.

Off the bench we know it will go 1000 Yd. .

Now we hunters know real world conditions Large game should be taken between 5 Ft. - 400 Yd. Reliably !.

Yea so I shot a Big Mule Deer at 525 Yd. Way back with a 7Mm Rem Mag. . Because I didn't own a range finder or a bullet compensating scope back then . I also dropped him in his tracks with one shot . I was LUCKY and foolish both .

IMO : It's the Hunters responsibility to kill humanely one or two shots in quick secession , when ever possible . Depending on terrain that can be near impossible while hunting at extreme range . Part of the skill of hunting is stalking the prey .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

Originally posted by Leo M:
What is the practical range of a 30-06 given the following parameters, for elk sized game.
-scoped bolt action
-24 inch barrel
-180 grain premium bullet
-max (safe) hand load
Thanks for any replies.

For those who have such a 30-06 rifle of sufficient accuracy with a useable scope and are practiced at reading the wind, and can shoot, 500 yards is about it. Of course ranging and correctly doping the wind are critical. Proper use of a range finder and wind meter (or a lot of experience shooting in and judging the wind) along with an accurately adjustable scope for setting the range (hold over doesn't cut it) are necessary. Having the time to get into a solid position (prone with a rest and perhaps with a sling obviously) is also a critical componant. Having the "time" also settles the heart rate from exertion, excitement, etc.

Most "hunters" have no business shooting past 100 yards (if that) simply because they lack a zeroed rifle and any marksmanship skills what so ever. (Regardless of quality or money spent it is the shooters skill that count most and most have little skill) If you doubt that go to any "sighting in day" at a range or just hang around a range.

Some hunters who have a properly zeroed and accurate rifle and a medium of marksmanship skills are quite deadly to 300 yards. A few of them can use hold over and hold off and connect at to 400 yards given the right conditions. The ones in this catagory usually practice (such practice involves shooting from positions other than the bench) a lot at a range or even shoot competively in some rifle shooting sport. They do not however practice in the field under hunting conditions at long rage shooting at targets of known size.

It is only a few who are practiced enough, have the required skills and have the proper equipment to shoot beyond 300 yards with certianty of putting the bullet in the heart lung area of the game. They also have the required judgement of knowing when conditions are right and when they are wrong given their expertise. They have the judgement of when to shoot and when not to shoot. This only comes from much practice in the field shooting at heart lung size targets under hunting conditions.

While I concur with the selection of the rifle and cartridge I'm not so quick to agree on the "premium bullet". I prefer to select a "proper bullet". There are many bullets that have been giving excellent terminal ballistics at the '06's velocities for years and are not considered "premium" bullets. If one reads the fine print regarding premium bullets you will notice the "heavier construction) (bonding, partition, etc.) so they hold together at magnum velocities. This also means they may not expand at long range when started out at the non-magnum lower velocity of the '06. One also should consider velocity retention, i.e. a high BC in the selection. One of the best, especially if longer shots are possible, is the Hornady 180 SPBT. With it's BC it holds velocity and thus energey well out to 500 yards when started out at '06 velocity (2750 fps+ is very feaseable with the 24" barrel and safe pressures). The 180 SPBT Hornady also gives reliable expansion at that range and kills well. I've shot enough big game with it up close also to know that the "InterLock" works. There are other bullets that work also so I'm not hung up on that bullet, just that it's worked well for me. Below is an excerpt from the story of my '02 elk hunt. I was using the Hornady 180 SPBT over IMR4350 out of a very accurate 20" barreled '06 that I'd shot at long range a considerable amount. Velocity was 2670 fps.

I do not make it a practice to shoot at long distance but I practice to be able to shoot long distance. Last November I shot another spike elk in Sterling Gulch at not a step over 30 yards. I had a 24" barreled '06 loaded with Hornady 190 SPBTs over H4831SC (2745 fps out of that rifle). The bullet went a tudge high (the elk had just got up from a bed and was moving) going through both shoulders, the neck vertebrae where it joins the spine) and lodged just under the offside hide. Not the classic long range shot, eh? Anyways here's bit on the long shot.

Larry Gibson

I continued to hunt opening day and spotted a small herd with a bull in it way out on a ridge. However by the time I got over to that ridge and halfway out to the elk, 3 other nimrods stumbled to the ridge top just above the elk and began looking around every way but down where the elk were. They never saw the elk as the small herd slipped into some timber in a draw and was gone. The next day, Sunday, I went back out onto the breaks and put the sneak to a couple of small bunches of elk but they were all cows and calves, no bulls.

On Monday I hunted Alder Creek and Sterling Gulch drainage’s in the hopes that some of the elk herd from the "Buttes" herd would have splintered off and moved down into them, no elk and no fresh sign. Tuesday I made the hunt from the breaks of the Imnaha West down through Indian Village. Didn't see any elk but I saw some fresh sign moving back into the breaks. Best thing though was that I only found one other hunter out there and he hadn't seen anyone other than me.

So Tuesday night in camp Jack and I had to rethink our strategy. Two things had changed since opening morning. First, the arctic front that had dropped the temperature below zero two days before season and down into the low 10-25 degree range on the first two days of season had passed. There was now a Chinook wind coming out of the south and the temperature was rising fast, melting the snow. Second, all the other hunters seem to have moved to other areas to hunt and there was now zero hunter pressure on the breaks. Thus I reasoned that since the elk really liked the south facing ridges on the breaks east of Indian Village, as there was plenty of forage, water and sunshine. Also from the Zumwalt Road we had been able to look back East out onto Long Ridge and see the herd about mid-day sunning itself. They had "holed" up out there on private property since opening morning.

Our thought was with the break in weather and lessening of hunter pressure some of them might have splintered off from the big herd and moved back out into the breaks where they were huntable. Tuesday afternoon there was about half as many elk on Long Ridge so we were hoping our guess was good that the herd was getting over opening morning jitters and beginning to break up. We figured some of them would move back to the breaks so I put all my chips on that bet.

Wednesday morning at daylight found me with my hunting partner, Jack who didn't have a tag, out on the ridge that I should have been on opening morning. The ridge is a pretty long one that drops quickly down to the Imnaha River and runs SE. Unfortunately we had the Sun to our face but then fortunately we also had the wind to our face. The breaks or ridges there are wide open with little cover except for an occasional tree or out cropping of rocks. They generally slope down quite rapidly with a series of benches. The elk like to gather and sun themselves on these small benches in the early morning. As Jack and I moved off the top and out of the tree line onto the open ridge we followed the cattle fence that runs down it. We had gone only a couple hundred yards and were glassing very carefully. Jack spotted a cow elk down the ridge in a saddle just above a bench.

Short of a low crawl it was going to be difficult to get closer as the ridge where we were was very rounded and there just wasn’t any cover between the elk and us. Below us a couple hundred yards along the fence was a large patch of thorn brush about 30-40 yards wide. We knew there was a spring right below it with a couple water troughs. There the ridge made a zigzag to the left with the drainage dropping off about 60-70 yards right below the water troughs. As the ridge straightened out a couple hundred yards to the left there was a large rock butte with a bench below it a little more than a hundred yards long and about 25-30 yards wide. That was where the elk seemed to be heading for as they fed out of the very steep drainage.

If we could get to the thorn brush we might have a shot – that is IF there was a bull in this bunch. We did the old “bend over and move slowly head to ass†trick hoping the elk would think we were a cow, as in cattle, as there were still quite a few of those around also. It worked. We moved slowly down the fence line until we were about a hundred yards above the thorn brush.

More and more elk were coming into view as we moved down the fence line. With my Zeiss 10x40s I spotted a spike bull that jumped the fence and then moved onto the bench below the butte. That was the elk I was looking for. Jack hit him with the range finder and it was just over 600 yards. We slid our pack frames off and again moved cow like very slowly down the fence to the thorn bush. By this time there were quite a few elk in view and they appeared to be feeding out of the draw below the troughs up onto the bench.

We finally got to the thorn brush that screened us from the elk. If you’re familiar with thorn brush you know we had a problem. You just don’t walk through it. While trying to figure out what to do next I noticed a small faint trail that led up to the center of the thorn brush and seemed to disappear into it. Getting down on my knees I could see a tunnel went through the brush about 2-3 feet high. Thus we went to hands and knees and worked our way through the thorn brush. However, once on the other side there was no further cover and the tall grass prevented a prone shot from there.

We then had to low crawl about 40-50 yards as far out onto the ridge as we dared. It appeared there were elk below us just under the edge but whether there were any bulls there we could not see. One old “lookout†cow out to the left just below the butte was beginning to eyeball us suspiciously so I told Jack to range the spike bull on the bench. He said 457 yards.

That long of a shot was in my comfort zone with the rifle I had. I had done a considerable amount of long range shooting with the rifle and I was confident I could make the shot putting a bullet into the heart/lung area. I would be shooting about 15-20 degrees downhill with a not to constant 10-12 mph wind quartering in from 2 o'clock. The scope on the rifle is a 3x9 Redfield Accu-Trac that I have used for years with absolute reliability. I have it ranged to 800 yards with the yardage settings matching those given by my Bushnell rangefinder, the one Jack had just ranged the bull with. I turned the scope to 9x and set the range at 450 yards. I had Jack slide around in front of me for a rest. Jack whined and sniveled as he wanted to watch but ya got to use what’s available. That's exactly what he was, a rest, and I had a perfect prone supported rest across the small of his back.

Quick mental calculations based on many years of long rang shooting with that rifle and load told me I would have about 8-10 inches of wind drift at that range. I waited for the bull to be clear of any other elk. When he was clear he was standing quartered away to the left about two thirds of the way down the bench. I wanted the bullet to go into the heart and lungs so I held center of the chest for elevation and on his last rib to the right for wind.

The shot broke clean and crisp. At the boom and rolling echo I recovered from recoil and saw the bulls left shoulder drop as he hunched from taking the shot. A brief moment later I heard the “thwack†of a solid hit. The first shot was a "10" going in behind the left shoulder and taking out the front of the lungs and the major artery in the throat on the way out. After taking the shot the elk was dead on his feet but he and I did not know that. He moved about 20 yards farther away and stood broadside to the right. He was close to the edge of the bench and it was a long way down on all three sides to the Imnaha River. I really did not want him off that bench!

I shot him again holding center again for elevation and holding on his brisket to the right for wind. Again the shot broke clean and I saw his front knees buckle as he took the shot. Then again came that satisfying “thwack†of a solid hit. The shot was an "X" going through the shoulder, the heart and breaking the offside shoulder. The range of the second shot was 477 yards. On taking the second shot the bull recovered momentarily but due to the broken offside leg he staggered back to the middle of the bench (thank you God) and collapsed there.

If there was a trophy fee on elk of let's say $2500(and they're worth that) and you paid for wounded game just like in Africa; what shot would you take? My guess is that most experienced shooters would cut er off at 300yds or less.I love the old 06 but my cut off would be 250yds. I think too many "wish" shots are taken at long range and too often the game pays the price and are never found. When you consider all the factors in long range shooting e.g. windy, cold, and commonly at a different altitude setting, you really push the envelop beyond 300yds and most can't shoot well even at that distance. So consider the animal before before trying for a luck shot.

i can say that the deer i have killed past 200 dont even register in my heart like the ones killed at 25 yards.
there is something that happens when you can see the wet shine off a bucks nose and the steam in his breath that you lose when shooting deer or any animal from long rang.
do i take deer at long range? I have and probably will again. but i spend more time hunting deer like turkey than sitting on a bluff and glassing them in the next county.
man, when you smell a buck before you see him...
when you hear those soft little steps and watch his shadow betray him as he sneaks along a creek bottom and there you sit snuggled up with a low branched cedar tree, iron sighter carbine in hand...
theres nothing like it.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
IMO it's good for 400 yards in the hands of a knowlegeable shooter.

Ditto

Roland

I'd say 350 yards with a premium 180 @ 2750 fps (Accubond or TSX)

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Leo M:
What is the practical range of a 30-06 ...

Only as far as you can practice with it and still have 1500ft# of energy for Game that size to create ethical Kills in the forward 1/3rd of the Game.

Best of luck to you.

the average bull elk ways around 800 pounds doesnt it? so 1500ftpounds is about 1.9 ftpounds of energy for every 1pound of animal.
a male elephant weighs around 12000pounds ( i googled it and it came up with lots of answeres, i just averaged them). using this formula you'll need 22800ft pounds of energy to kill a elephant.

so using a .475 500gr swift a frame, youll need a good 4500FPS MV to have your 22000ft lbs, better be within 10 yards to kill it safely! just to be sure that bullet better be going 5000FPS MV.

how about a 510 dia. 800 gr. Lapua Bullex-N Silver Jacket (is that any use for hunting?) doesing 3800fps will give you enough energy to kill one at 200yards. i bet the recoil would be mild.

bullet choice and shot placement are more important than ft lbs in my books, then again u dont only want it going 150fps

quote:

Originally posted by Pathfinder:
If there was a trophy fee on elk of let's say $2500(and they're worth that) and you paid for wounded game just like in Africa; what shot would you take? My guess is that most experienced shooters would cut er off at 300yds or less.I love the old 06 but my cut off would be 250yds. I think too many "wish" shots are taken at long range and too often the game pays the price and are never found. When you consider all the factors in long range shooting e.g. windy, cold, and commonly at a different altitude setting, you really push the envelop beyond 300yds and most can't shoot well even at that distance. So consider the animal before before trying for a luck shot.

your right. and to add to that a good guide should be able to get you within 200yards for the shot anyway.

KSTEPHENS your onto it! there is nothing quite like the rush of getting really close to a deer, its truly amazing and everyone should do it atleast once in there life. however the thrill of hitting one way out there is amazing too. still getting close is probably the best ever, it takes the most ammount of hunting skills and deffinatly seems more deserved!

let me address something else.
when you make that hit at 400 yards plus you bullet is going to have diminished energy and may not be exactly were you want it.
this comes from standard physics that the round is losing energy every inch it travels and that noone can accuratly compensate for the various changing winds that the bullet will travel through on its flight path.

so lets say you make a "Hit". what are the chances that the deer is going to run?
mow i have hit deer square in the heart from 30 yards and had them run.
are you as a hunter able to look out at that strech of 400+ yards and pick the exact spot the animal was standing in to begin the trail?
what about the loss of energy in the bullet.
maybe it didnt penetrate completly.
was this shot made in dusks fading light?
finding a spot on the ground, in the dark, from 400 yards away that may not even have blood in it it a daunting task for even a seasond hunter.

how many deer die with blow out guts from shots just like this because the hunter couldnt find blood at the spot he estimated was were the animal stood?

a lot of factors to consider.
my last "long" shot (long for me) was well over 250. from my point of aim ( the back line) i had 9 inches of drop. wind was2 miles an hour and i was shooting from a solid rest on a slight downhill grade.
at the shot the buck turned towards me and ran about another 50 yards were he quartered to the left and i hit him again with a shot that struck the neck and traveled the entire length coming to rest under the offside ham.
this is with a rifle i shoot every week, all year. from a good rest at an unsuspecting (for the first shot at least) buck.

no were near as exiting as the 9 point i killed from 30 yards a few years back in the creek bottoms. he had two does at his side and one of them was always looking while the other ate.it must have taken 5 min for me to get the rifle shouldered. you probably would have to fast forward a video to even see me moving.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul from nz:
...the average bull elk ways around 800 pounds doesnt it? so 1500ftpounds is about 1.9 ftpounds of energy for every 1pound of animal.
a male elephant weighs around 12000pounds ( i googled it and it came up with lots of answeres, i just averaged them). using this formula you'll need 22800ft pounds of energy to kill a elephant. ...

Hey Paul, That is some fine extrapolating you did. Only problem is I wasn't talking about Elephants.

Have only seen one Killed while on a visit to Southeast Asia. It got all kinds of "ft# of energy" from any number of small arms, but the old M79 seemed to be the decisive blow. Not sure how many ft# that was.
-----

Thinking it is possible to "sneak closer" in all terrain simply shows that the individual is unfamiliar with some places the Game lives. I do agree that is nice to do when it is possible, and it increases the thrill of the Hunt.
-----

Use an Adequate caliber. If 1500ft# is unrealistic, then use 1501ft# as a minimum.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:
...I'm not picking a fight in any way but wanted to know how you reached the 1500 ft lb energy mark? I know Colorado reqires the use of a minimum or .243/6mm cal with 80 grains or more of bullet with 1000 ft lb of energy at 100 yards to hunt elk legally. I will not argue the more energy the better when hunting any big game animal, but is this your personal way you measure performance on elk?

Hey Taylorce1, Since I recommend 1000ft# Minimum for Deer, it seemed reasonable to me that in order to drive through the Elk size bones, a bit more Energy would be wise. Perhaps 2000ft# would be better.

The real problem is we have otherwise sane people trying to justify using inadequate Cartridges on Game. Using a 243Win on Elk is not something I would recommend regardless of the Colorado Regulations. I'm sure people can site plenty of examples about how they Killed one with a 243Win, but it is still the WRONG Cartridge!

You can also Deer Hunt in KY with any Centerfire Rifle. And one Board member says he would actually take kids hunting with a Load that is equilavent to a "Down Loaded 22Hornet" - Absolutely Pitiful!

If a person can't handle an Adequate Cartridge for the task at hand, then they need to wait until they are physically capable enough to do so. Nothing to argue about at all.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills - with an Adequate Cartridge.

Hey Larry Gibson, Great story! Congratulations on some excellent shooting.

Another successful Hunt - with an Adequate Cartridge.

Continued good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

From a purely ballistic point of view, the combination that you present is capable of hitting elk out to 300yds easily. If you care a competent shot and practice with the rifle out to that range, it will be easy to hit the animal with a killing shot at that range.

You must consider that you will not get a follow up and you must have a good blood trail to find the animal, therefore, I'd suggest less distance and perhaps a 200gr Ballistic Tip for a bigger exit hole and easier tracking. Kudude

PS: You will find that the 200gr's BC makes up for its reduction in muzzle velocity and runs about the same as the 180. k-d

Those of you who have wounded game know that the ones you wounded were from shots taken too far out at least for the most part..be honest with yourself on this.

The elk that I have wounded all went down hill into the bowells of hell (into the most inaccessable places) and the TORTURE I went through to recover them taught me to get a little closer, and shoot a little better..

I believe 300 yards is max for elk or deer, if your a hunter. Perhaps under ideal circumstances 400 is OK, but I don't do it often..

Hold over is the easy part, wind is what causes wounded animals for the most part, at least in Idaho. I don't know anyone that can read wind in the mountains, and anyont that says they can is just kidding themselves. Hunting Idaho rockchucks in the Snake River Canyon will certainly teach you what wind can do..

[QUOTE] ... it seemed reasonable to me that in order to drive through the Elk size bones, a bit more Energy would be wise. Perhaps 2000ft# would be better.

I'm sure people can site plenty of examples about how they Killed one with a 243Win, but it is still the WRONG Cartridge!

If a person can't handle an Adequate Cartridge for the task at hand, then they need to wait until they are physically capable enough to do so. Nothing to argue about at all.

[QUOTE/]


the 30-30 blackpowder load developed what? 200FPS MV with maybe 1200 FtLb of E at 100 yards.
the 243 has what 1600 FtLb's at the same distance.

how come all those elk were killed before and now they are what, tougher?

E=Mc2
Energy is always going to favor a lighter faster trajectory because you square the speed while the mass remains constant.
energy is not the only factor. if a 405 gr 45 cal lead slug hits an elk at 900 FPS he is going
dinner. as energy goes thats just over 700 FtLb's.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Those of you who have wounded game know that the ones you wounded were from shots taken too far out at least for the most part..be honest with yourself on this.

Ray

The only big game animal I ever lost was a nice black tail 4 point (that woud be a 10 pointer to easterners) buck I shot at about 80 paces. The buck was face on to me standing in the same skid road I was. There was nothing between him and me. I went to kneeling and shot him in the center of the neck just where it joins the brisket. I was using a 6mm Remington (yah I know but I was young and foolish then and now use enough gun with enough bullet) with 100 gr bullets and went to a kneeling positon for the shot. At the shot the buck went straight over backwards onto his back with his legs kicking in the air. I was so sure the buck was dead I didn't even chamber another cartridge (see I told you I was young and dumb!). I closed about hlaf the distance when the buck was on his feet and into the brush quicker than I could react. I spent 3 days trying to find that buck and other than a large tuft of hair where I shot him I never found another trace that he'd been hit.

I've hunted my fair share of rock chucks (lived in NE Oregon for 18 years) and certainly know what the wind will do. I also shot a lot of high power 600-1000 yard matches over the years and have a clear understanding of what the wind does to a bullet. For such shooting I gave up on hold over years ago and use reliable adjusting scopes (iron sights in matches). If you noticed in my previous post i used a very reliable adjusting scope and set the range to match the lazer ranger finders measurement. (the scope range settings are calibrated agains the range finders measurements). As to hold off for wind, which is what I usually do in big game hunting, knowing the actual drift of the bullet given the speed and direction the wind is coming from is a must.

One of the most important things to remember when deciding to shoot at long range is that regardless of using hold over, hold off or sight adjustments is that you are not adjusting for the placement of that bullet but the center of your cone of fire at that range. One should never fire if the size of your cone of fire given your position and accuracy capabilities excedes the heart/lung area. I know what my cone of fire is under hunting conditions from the offhand, kneeling, sitting and prone positions with and without a solid rest. I never shoot beyond those limits or beyond the limit of the bullet to kill cleanly. Only those who realisticly practice under field hunting conditions are going to know these limits and can adhere to them.

For the "average" hunter out there who is not guided or doesn't have anyone else to tell him the range and other conditions anything past 100 yards is a very long shot. That is a simple fact because the "average" hunter does not practice shooting from position, can not estimate range, is clueless about the winds effects and most often will shoot entirely too fast from the off hand position. Most do not have a zeroed rifle either (bore sighted doesn't cut it nor does "hitting paper is good enough" at sighting in day). Too many of them have bought god aweful magnums thinking that will make up for their lack of skill. Not complaining here, just stating the facts. I'm sure you've seen more than your share of it.

Larry Gibson

I wonder how many "clean misses" are the result of not being able to identify the location of the animal and/ incomplete penetration resulting in no evident blood at the initial site?

i know of two bucks i have killed thatif i had known the actual yardage i wouldnt have taken the shot. both were clean kills because i held on fur and didnt over compensate.

Hot Core, I won't get into the ethics of hunting with a down loaded .22 Hornet. It would not be my rifle of choice but if it is legal where that person hunts and he doesn't push the limitations of that cartridge then I can't call him unethical. I'd like to hunt elk myself with a .30-30 in a Win Model 94 just to say I've done it, and that rifle will not work on elk according to your 1500 lb requirement at 100 yards.

I can honestly believe that the .30-06 can be an effective elk cartridge at 500+ yards. As long as the person pulling the trigger is capable of making that shot. Going buy your 1500 lb limit then 400 yards would be the limit of .30-06 using 180 grain bullets. Again I believe the 06 can be an effective elk killer past 400 yards for a hunter who has spent the time learning his cartridge and rifle combo.

I'm not a fan of long range hunting but I don't get upset when people want to try it. I think it is only a natural progression for a lot of shooters. You spend all this time building your skill at long range targets plus the money spent to buy the equipment to do it. I mean who wouldn't want to try out their skills on something other than paper.

My only thing though for long range hunting is the target needs to be static. I mean you wouldn't want to take a 500+ yard shot on a moving animal or one that is about to move. For this reason I try to limit the range of my shooting to 300 yards or less. I've take shots beyond 500 yards and have made the shot, but a Larry Gibson wrote I did a poor job of estimating distance. I was by myself and left my range finder in the pickup and rushed to make the shot, I did it and got away with it this time but I hope not to repeat it any time
soon.

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My only thing though for long range hunting is the target needs to be static.

wouldnt that call for some precognitive ability?
i mean seeing that it takes a 30 caliber bullet 0.639 second to make it to the target after you have pulled the trigger.
i mean even a call animal with a mouthfull of grass sunning himself on a ridge at 500 yards away can be urged to take a single step, right?

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Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
... Only those who realisticly practice under field hunting conditions are going to know these limits and can adhere to them. ...

That separates the Ethical from the wanabes. Seems like someone else mentioned something similar to that in this thread.

Hey Larry, You are doing just fine in the answers.

I agree that the 30-06 would work on elk out to 400 yards assuming excellent shot placement etc., but I personally never shot at an elk much past 275 yards, and I use to use a 350 rem mag. The reason being, caution and a bit of laziness. I really hated to have to track down injured animals, and shooting at ranges like 400 yards often results in lost animals no matter how competent the shooter (i.e animal moves after shot is taken, wind changes direction, there is a branch etc. in the bullets path you can't see from such distances, etc.).

If you were asking the safe distance for pronghorn with an -06, I'd be more apt to agree that 400 yards is acceptable (easier to find on open plans, and less worry about impediments to the bullets path), but that's just an opinion.

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Originally posted by taylorce1:
...I'd like to hunt elk myself with a .30-30 in a Win Model 94 just to say I've done it, ...

Hey Taylorce1, If you have a Dog Food Plant near you, and if they would let you ride along, you could see HUGE Bulls and Horses cleanly killed with a 22LR every day of the year. The circumstances when doing this are as different as night and day when compared to Hunting Game. But, some of them are quite large and they drop at the shot. No running around Tracking the critters, none of them jumping back up and taking off, none of the things we might be faced with as Hunters, just time to hook up the winch and drag it into the truck.

If a person doesn't have a grasp of "what can happen" with Game, then I can see where they would be led to believe a 22LR would work just as well on Game. But, it just doesn't work that way.

That doesn't mean the 30-30 won't Kill an Elk. because it no doubt will. However, it isn't the best tool for the job. Think of it as a long barrel Revolver and it will perform about the same as a 44Mag. Lots of folks Kill Elk with Revolvers. And they also have to "Pass" on a lot of Elk because it would be unethical to take a high probability Wounding shot.

I've had to Pass on a good many Whopper Trophy Deer over the years because I was "Testing" Bullets way too light for the shot at hand. It does not nag at me though because I knew I was not prepared for those shots before I ever left the house. (Had I known I'd see those Whoppers, I'd have had a different "Test" going. )

By recommending 1500ft#, it totally eliminates many marginal Cartridges and Bullets. Most folks with a bit of Hunting experience will recogninze:
1. Bigger Cartridges with Big Bullets Kill better than small cartridges and small bullets - with the same placement.
2. Faster Cartridges Kill better than Slow Cartridges - with the same placement.
3. Big and Fast Kills the best of all.

No need for all the excuses about poorly placed Bullets with rifles having a stout recoil. A poor placed Bullet is just that regardless of the Cartridge.
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So if you see a 350-400 class Bull at 200yds and know you can't get closer, how will you feel about the decision to take the 30-30?

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My only thing though for long range hunting is the target needs to be static.

wouldnt that call for some precognitive ability?
i mean seeing that it takes a 30 caliber bullet 0.639 second to make it to the target after you have pulled the trigger.
i mean even a call animal with a mouthfull of grass sunning himself on a ridge at 500 yards away can be urged to take a single step, right?

No it just means picking your shots carefully. What I mean by static is finding an animal bedded chewing on it's cud or something, but other wise incapable of sudden movement. Not to say a deer or elk can not get up and move suddenly but chances are it will take them longer than the 0.639 seconds you used (too much math) to move, unless disturbed by other factors. To some shooting a bedded animal is another foul. My thing is in hunting stuff happens regardless if you are close or far away, I just try to control what I can.

There is no law that I know of that says we have to get as close as possible while hunting. Neither is there one that says the animal has to be alert and standing for us to shoot one. I'd rather have someone hunting out there that has done the range work to shoot an animal at 400+ yards, than to have one who just bore sighted his/her rifle and grabbed a box of ammunition from the store on the way to the hunt.

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Hey Taylorce1, If you have a Dog Food Plant near you, and if they would let you ride along, you could see HUGE Bulls and Horses cleanly killed with a 22LR every day of the year.

Don't need too, I've shot plenty of farm animals myself with a .22 lr. I'll say this a properly placed .22 lr will not cleanly kill bull, cow, pig, horses, or sheep. A .22 lr will however knock them down quite fast and eventually kill them. When we butchered cattle, sheep, and pigs on my fathers ranch we used a .22 lr to knock them down and then cut there throats to let them bleed out. Blood loss killed them before the trauma of a .22 lr did. I just recently had to put a cow down for dad on the ranch I decided to use the .22 lr, after watching that cow lay there and breathe for 10 min after I dropped her with the first shot I got a "bigger gun". I have no doubt she would have died from the shot but since we were not going to butcher, I should have used a larger caliber from the get go. So I'll call B.S. to anyone who says they can case a clean kill "DRT" with a .22 lr on anything larger than a small game animal.

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By recommending 1500ft#, it totally eliminates many marginal Cartridges and Bullets. Most folks with a bit of Hunting experience will recogninze:
1. Bigger Cartridges with Big Bullets Kill better than small cartridges and small bullets - with the same placement.
2. Faster Cartridges Kill better than Slow Cartridges - with the same placement.
3. Big and Fast Kills the best of all.

I'm just glad that is your rule, because that sure would eliminate a lot of my hunting and a lot of others as well. I find hunting with a Muzzle Loader or the .30-30 to be a challenge worth taking, I've even got a bow but haven't hunted with it yet. Yes I'll agree with you there are shots I'll have to pass up from time to time. Part of being a hunter is knowing your limitations and the limitations or your equipment and not letting the "fever" take over so that we know when to pass on a shot. If we all lived by your rule then no one could hunt elk with a pistol, muzzle loader, "near obsolete caliber" (ie .30 WCF, .38-55, .32 WCF, .35 Rem) or bow; now where would be the fun in that?

Don't get me wrong I'm glad that we all draw limits somewhere. My personal limit on elk is I will not use a bullet diameter smaller than .277 caliber or a bullet weighing less than 150 grains. Sure I could go smaller diameter and weight and be legal but I don't want too. The thing is I pretty much have the opportunity to hunt elk every year and I've yet to find one that is bullet proof or puncture resistant, shot placement wins every time regardless of pounds of energy, feet per second, and diameter of projectile. Dead is Dead regardless of what you use as long as you use it well.

taylorce1, i beg to differ! ive shot a few sheep with the 22LR, seen a couple of cows shot with one and even a horse. naturally the sheep were all farmed and in paddocks, we were simply killing them for food. one shot to the brain and they go down and aint getting back up. you just make a X between the eyes and the ears and pull the trigger in the middle of the X.
the cows we killed were going to the butchers to be turned into sausages etc, so they were in the yards and one shot was all that was needed to kill them. but to try and kill them in the field through the chest is absolutely ludicrous.

dont get wrapped up on energy numbers.
theres alot more than energy.
E is only a measure of the potential transfer ability of a projectile on the surface.
at impact @ 100 yards a 220 swift has 1500#'s.
that doesnt make it a viable big game round.
compared to a 45-70 trapdoor a 405 @ 1300 MV has only 1270.
so by energy your going to buy that a 220 swift is a better elk caliber at 100 yards than a 45-70?
comon. let logic be your guide.