I have had great luck with two old Remington rifles mounted on old two Chet Brown synesthetic stocks that I got from him back when he was trying different materials back in the early 80's.

Both rifles have been great with H4831 and Nosler Bullets over the years. Both used to shoot well under an inch group with 150 grain bullets. My worst day was when Nosler went to the plastic tips back when because before that Partations and spire points hit the same hole.

I have shot a lot of rounds thru both and the patterns seemed to have opened. I do not shoot like I used to but now with Nosler bullets available same loads and bullets seem to shoot 1/2 groups now have open patterns and flyers with same loads and powder. I still have a 7mm08 that shoots win 760 great so It is not me asaik.

160 Nolser partions and H4831 in the 7 mag now suck from all the years with 1/2 groups.

270 is the same with nosler partions though the Hornaday 150 sp seems to hold a 1" groups.

I started with H4831 and now h4831 SC.

At the range I noticed funny things that I checked the 270 rifle has with 150 rounds inc nosler 150 in general shot around 2830,2825 fps but the nolser 150 today were shooting 2974 and 2992. I have never had that velocity. I alternated the shots over the chrony just to check things and the readings are correct.. Why?? The 270 HOrnaday had little over a 1" group.

All three loads 270 nos part 270 , Rem 7 mag 150 np 2924fps and 160 np 2876,2958 fps seemed to have problems with flyers over 3-4 inches all used H4831 sc. The 270 Hornaday gave a 1" group. see 270 above.


I have cleaned the rifles regularly, checked screws, beddings and powder and every thing else that I can think of. Not sure on the throat with all the shooting.
Looked at changing the seating depths a while back.

Could it be the H4831 SC is a lot hotter or different than the other lots I have used over 40 plus years All the Nosler bullets were loaded with a new pound of 4831 and all have flyers and the strange vel that the 270 NP load shows since I have never see that hot of a load??

Any Ideas on what to check or do?

At 78 I really not ready to go buy new rifles if I can try to fix the problems no more than I hunt now.

Thanks, Jim

H4831/H4831SC powders are made in Australia and we here down-under know them as AR2213/AR2213SC.

SC stands for short-cut, a step taken to improve metering of long kernel powders. I imagine just cutting long kernel powder to produce short-cut would increase the burn rate as more surface area of the short-cut kernels is exposed to ignition. If this is so then I assume some change is made to the powder coatings which controls burn rate so short-cut powder remains within specification of the standard cut powder.

I don't know which 4831 powder you used to develop your loads. The original Hodgdon H4831 ex military powder was the slowest of the 4831 powders, this was the powder that Jack O'Connor, Elmer Keith and others of their ilk, developed the well known loads for the likes of the 270W etc.
I also used this powder when loading for the 270 and 7mm magnums. Once this original H4831 supply dried up, Bruce Hodgdon had a new H4831 supplied by a Scottish company, likely Nobels. I also used this powder and like others found it to be slightly hotter than the old H4831.
When Nobels stopped producing powder Hodgdon then obtained H4831 and then H4831SC from the Australian company ADI.
I have used AR2213SC (H4831SC) developing loads for the 6.5-06 and found it a little erratic in terms of pressure. I noted a comment from a seller of some AR2231SC on our auction site where he said it was a newly opened tin of powder which gave high pressure signs compared to the previous tin of the same powder he had used for the cartridges he was loading for. He wanted to get rid of the powder with a cautionary note.

Perhaps the powder is causing the issues you are experiencing now.

As Eagle says, the modern H4831 powders are not the same as the old. In fact each new batch of the same number may be slightly different to the last, so perhaps your old loads should be reworked up from scratch.

Assuming the throat has worn some, maybe if the magazines allow you could recheck the allowable COLs and seat your bullets out a little more.

If that doesn't help, how much accuracy do you really need? Rebarrelling is rarely cheap.

I appreciate the help. I have shot other cans of H4831 sc and did not see this problem. Now the groups may not be in the same hole but even expanding to an inch the rifle usually hit what it was after. Probably a pinch hot but not enough to matter.

I worked these loads up back in the early 80's but is is scary to see the 270 loads over 100 fps faster than the old 2830 standard over the years.

The last older SC loads opened the patterns a little 1/2 but not like this.
I went thru my notes and all three nosler loads were random 3 inch spreads but only the 270 had a higher velocity on the couple of loads that I checked. Exam of the cartridges did not show issues with primer or casing.

I just need to pull bullets and dump the powder back out and start over.


I have two more cans and thought about mixing all three cans to keep the powder more even then have to rework the loads up.

How much have you had to reduce the load to keep your accuracy with this powder?

Not .270 or H4831 SC, but yes.

A simple check is the chronograph. If it’s substantially different between lots, I have had to reduce powder to maintain velocity and accuracy.

I have also had different lots of nosler bullets behave very differently as far as jump to maintain accuracy. I can’t say it went from 1/2 inch to 3 inches but it did go from 1/2” at 100 yards for 5 shots to 2” at the same range for 5 shots.

Frankly, with 40 years you are almost certainly dealing with different lots of bullets, brass, powder, and primers. You might also be dealing with some throat erosion as well (kind of sounds like it with that big of SD changes.)

I’d look at your bore with a borescope and if all looks well, get a good supply of bullets, brass, and powder from one lot and rework up your load if 2” isn’t usable for your purposes.

With my .30-06 it ended up being the bullets were different enough that I never got the .5MOA back with the 165 partitions, but I did get it under 1MOA, by adding .5 grains of powder and putting the OAL at 3.375”… until I had to change bullet lot again.

For some reason the TTSX isn’t as variable lot to lot… and this rifle is really picky about where it likes its OAL for optimal accuracy.

Same powder, in different lots, can give a velocity variation of almost 100 fps with the same load.

It is not supposed to ha, but it does.

I appreciate that. This is the first time that I have had problems with either H4831 or H4831 sc. I had no problems with flattened primers nor did I see any other problems But From The Rem 27 most of the loads have always been right around 2830 for all 150 grain bulletsbut when you get 2831 on old powder then 2992 and 2974 fps on the new can of H4831 sc that is a lot of difference for a measured 57gr for both. a 174 and 143 fps difference is a little something.

The 7 mag was a little touchy with the old powders 67 grs gave 1/2 type groups but 67 grs blew the group apart. The vel checks were higher than the old loads too.

At a guess what do you think the new amount of powder will be to get back to 3/4 or better group.

NOt sure what the new load will be. I took all three poun, all differentlots and carefully mixed them together for a while and they are well mixed.

I was a strong devotee of the original surplus 4831, of which I have used copious amounts over the years. However, I have had no luck with the current ADI-produced 4831.

As my supply of original surplus 4831 dwindled I did try some IMR7828SSC in some of the same rifles. I found its performance excellent, and consistently got very similar velocities and accuracy by using about 3% more IMR7828SSC than the old 4831 with all of the same components. By the way, since the SSC version packs more densely you can nearly always get enough into the case to match 4831 velocities. It is my "new" 4831 now.

Good to hear.
Looking at the old reloading books that I have from the early 80's, it looks like about 2 grains in the early charts gave about 100 fps
for 150 gr bullets in several books

How many rounds do you think you have down those tubes? Barrels don't last forever. I'm a former service rifle shooter and we used to keep log books of our round counts religiously. Cut rifled barrels seemed to last longer than button rifled but it was common to get only 1 season out of a barrel, and that's just a .223. The symptoms were the same as you describe, an opening up of groups and occasional unexplained flyer.

quote:

How many rounds do you think you have down those tubes? Barrels don't last forever.

That is unlikely the problem. Hunting rifles rarely wear out their barrels. Counting hunting, zeroing, and (most of all) load development, a hunting rifle will rarely get more than a few dozen rounds through it a year.

On the other hand, I have a .264 Win that is 60 years old this year and has had, best I can calculate, over 3,000 rounds through it. It still groups MOA or better -- but I haven't needed to change components in the last 25 years, either.