Hmmm. Should a grandkid's rifle in Africa be a 308 or 30-06?

While I've hunted and taken game with 30 calibers, including 30-06, 300 WinMag, and 300 Weatherby, I've never gone out and bought one myself. Now I'm thinking about a thirty caliber rifle as a guest gun, camp gun, and grandkid's gun.

A grandkid's rifle means that 18", 20" and 22" would be the potential barrel lengths, with at least one stock with a 12.5" LOP. I've heard good things about the Ruger American and a person can buy a second stock for only $99, potentially having a 13.75 LOP and 12.5" LOP for the same rifle. On the other hand Mossberg now has a youth model with a 12" LOP and 1" spacer, but only for a 308 in the youth model and not a 30-06.

Questions arise:
is the Mossberg inherently accurate? Any experiences, testimony? It even offers a wood stock option, though the Mossberg is a tad heavier than the Ruger. (I don't want to consider the Savage lines, having a poor experience with one in the past. I know that they have improved and are also an good, inexpensive choice.)

A second purpose for the rifle would be as a guest gun, lightweight camp gun. For that, a 30-06 might seem to be a more versatile option for Africa and hand loading, since it should handle some of the longer and heavier bullets better than the 308. Currently, our lightest gun is a 338WinMag with 14" LOP, certainly a worthy guest gun but too big for the kids or smaller framed guests.

Whether 308 or 30-06, we would probably test and bring over three loads, or at least two.

- - One would be a lightweight training round in 110 or 130 grains at light 243 power levels.

- - The second would be something like a 165 grain CEB Lazer at 2700fps as an all-purpose antelope (plains game) load. I'm thinking that either the 308 or 30-06 could achieve this power level.

- - I suppose if a 30-06 would be chosen, then a third load would be the 165gnLazer at 2850-2900 fps or perhaps 168 TTSX at the same fps, or even the 180 CEB Laser at 2750-2800fps. (Yes, I've pretty much gone over to the monolithic this century. It's hard to pass up guaranteed max penetration, especially when heavier animals may be encountered.)

In terms of rifles and weight, the 308 saves about 2-4 ounces in the Ruger American, depending on whether or not the 18" barrel is chosen. But a bare rifle at 6.25lb. in 30-06 is already pretty light. So I'm thinking that the caliber choice can be made on the merits without thought about rifle weight, as long as the barrel has 1 in 10" twist.

A rifle in .308 will use a shorter and somewhat lighter action -- about an inch or so depending on which manufacturer's rifle you choose. This is a significant advantage in a "kids" rifle since it is the length, plus the weight, which makes a rifle hard for smaller people to handle.

The .308 will be only about 200 fps with a given bullet slower than the .30-06 in optimum handloads -- the difference in factory loads is less than that, perhaps only 100 fps or so. Since you want to limit the range at which "kids" shoot, the .308 will have as much impact energy at those limited ranges as would the .30-06 at a somewhat longer range.

As to the inexpensive "leader" rifles offered by the various manufacturers, I can't tell you much; however most of them will exhibit acceptable accuracy. The problem with them is that they tend to be heavier and bulkier than a bit more expensive rifles do. So be sure to check the weight of a given model before choosing.

I have been promoting the Tikka T3 Lit in .30-06 as a starter rifle for years. But I encourage the reduced loads sold by Remington. These loads reduce the recoil in half, and once the child grows up, they still have a quality rifle they can use for almost any game worldwide.

Remington also makes the reduced loads for the .308, and that's reasonable as well. My 21 year old son has been shooting a Tikka in .308 since he was 10 years old. I just think the .30-06 is a better all round cartridge.

I have a couple Ruger American rifles, an'06 and 243, and they are great shooters, especially after you tweak the trigger spring a bit (takes 5 minutes).

If weight is an issue as Stonecreek pointed out I'd opt for the 308. If not, you cannot beat a 30-06 and it's ability to handle a huge range of bullet weights.

For Africa I don't see any reason the 308 would not be a better choice. Shots are generally less than 150 yards and with a good monolithic penetration should be adequate. Mrs Blacktailer has taken zebra with 165TSX with her 308. Shorter and lighter action is a plus.
Sorry, can't comment on which rifle.

I have a model 700 in .308 just for this purpose. Its a standard BDL but I found a mountain rifle stock on EBAy and cut it back a bit. Handles and shoots great, just the right weight, and I have the original stock for myself.

I never had a 700 before, because of bad press etc, but this is does everything it needs to do and was at a low price off of the used rack. Look around shops.

I think the good news is that neither caliber will be a poor choice. Honestly, .308 has slightly less recoil because of less powder, but the short action rifles are generally just a bit lighter, so I don't think recoil is an issue. Velocity is so close with the bullet weights you mention, so that's not really a factor.

Only thing I can think of is the shorter barrel. I don't like muzzle blast, so the 18" barrel would be a no-go for me. At 20", maybe the .308 loses less velocity? At 22" inches I cannot believe there would be a relevant difference.

I would second the Tikka T3 suggestion, even though it wasn't in your original line up. I have one in .308 and it's incredibly accurate. Two, the rifle is not a total budget buy. I have concerns about the new line of super budget rifles and how long some of them will be produced. In 5 years, if they're not being made anymore, can you get replacement parts if something breaks? Will the parts be repairable? Probably not because they're made to such a tight production cost.

Bust a piece on a Remington 700 and a new part can be in the mail same day.

My pick is .30-06, just because.

If the 18" barrel is on the short list for a youth or a shooter with a small frame I would highly recommend the Ruger American Compact

My wife has one in 7-08 and it even handles very nicely for me in spite of my 6' 2" frame

I will stir the pot and recommend the Winchester Compact 70 in .308 or 7mm/08. LOP is 13 inches and the barrel is 20 inches. Purchased one of these for my wife last year and she just loves it.
Her's is a 7mm/08 but they do make them in .308. The 7mm/08 has less recoil and I would trust it to kill anything the .308 could. Build quality is outstanding and when the younsters out grow the LOP take off stocks with longer LOP's are easy to find.

Thank you for the responses. They resonate more than you may know.

For example, we currently have a Tikka 338WM in TZ and I concur that it is an excellent, light, accurate rifle. My hesitation with Tikka is price and the temptation to put a wood stock on it.
I also have a Win M70 featherweight 243Win in the US for grandkids there. However, it has a 13" LOP and is a little heavier than the new Ruger American or even the Tikka's. It, too, costs almost double of the new inexpensive rifles.

As for bullet weights, I am a little concerned about the ability of the 308 to handle the long length of the CEB Lazer 165grain, 1.446". Anyone with experience loading such a relatively long bullet in the little 308? for that matter, even the Barnes 168 TTSX is long at 1.418", though they list loads for it that imply that it is doable and reasonable.

- -

So has anyone tried the Mossberg Patriot? I would like to hear feedback on it before elevating it up to the level of the Ruger American. This latter has quite a few positive reviews, although I have heard one person mention the Mossberg Patriot as accurate.

The 165TSX is "only" 1.3 inches long. Mrs Blacktailer has a Kimber and the mag length is the determining factor. I needed to load to book max COL in order for the rounds to fit into the mag.
You might lose a little in effective case capacity with a longer bullet but could probably offset that with a slightly faster powder. I used IMR4320 which is relatively slow for the 308 and it worked fine.

With the barrel length under 24 inches I would opt for a .308. 30/06 offers no practical field advantage over .308 until you get to 24 inches of barrel length. I would throw the 6.5 Creedmoor into the race too. Light recoil, accuracy and very easy to hit with. It will kill anything at .308 or 30/06 will.

I have 4 Ruger American rifle's and I'm impressed with them for the money.
I've shot a couple of Iika T3's and was impressed with them too.

You can get replacement stocks in whatever LOP you need from Boyd's pretty reasonably for either rifle.

Take a look at the MDT LSS chassis system. Put an adjustable LOP stock on it and it will fit everybody you need it to in one easy package. It too is available for either rifle.

I've seen Ruger Americans in pawnshops in the $150-$200 range. You can't beat a deal like that no matter what size stick use.

Not that it would make much difference either way but I would pick the .308 Win. for a youngster, but that would depend on his age, his size and his mindset.

As to barrel length, It would be a push, if both are 20 inches the difference is roughly 100 FPS in favor of the 30-06..If both barrels are 26 inches the difference is roughly 100 FPS, to say otherwise is playing games in favor of one or the other...

I hear the affirmations of the 308.
Let's see, with a 22" barrel we could probably get 3100fps with the 130TTSX. That would only drop -5" at 300 yards and should do a number on anything up to a hartebeest.

Some of my hesitation has probably been caused by thinking about how I would use it between visits of grandkids. A 30-06 can be loaded up to 3000-3100 ft lbs, but what would I be trying to do? The 338 and my wife's 375Ruger are already much better walk-about rifles. The little 30 cal would make a nice spur-wing-goose-from-any-position rifle. So I need to put more weight on the grandkids. I have 9 at various ages slowly approaching hunting ages.

Back to the 308:
the 130gn TTSX can also be loaded down to 2600-2650, producing only about 10 ft lbs. of recoil. That is a 243 level. such a load would be huntable to 300 yards, dropping -10" at 300 yards when sighted-in 2.1" at 100. The meat-and-potatoes distance for a kid would probably be 125-250 yards.
They need the animal a little farther away to be relaxed and to give them plenty of time to shoot. The 308 shines at those ranges, even at a reduced velocity of 2600fps, dropping to -4" at 250 yards.

I suspose I could add some 150 grain TTSX at 2800 should someone want to use it on a wildebeest.

A friend of mine on here that posts as taylorce is trying to sell a Winchester bolt action 30/06 in a synthetic stock and scoped with a 3-9 Burris that is a deal, would suit your needs nicely.
Buy that and don't look back, start with reduced recoil ammo and work the kids up, there is no substitute for a great 30/06.

Tikka: inexpensive, perfectly suited to a young shooter, comes in many configurations including wood stocked versions and accurate as hell.

quote:

Tikka: inexpensive,

tikka are not $300 inexpensive, but they are in the running. I also need to recheck if the 308 uses a 10" twist. The 165 grain bullets (1.54") need a 10 inch twist.

I have a nice BSA I would sell ya for $500 with Leupold bases...

As one who has sold many and seen how they shoot, I would heartily recommend the ruger American in either 308 or 30/06. Cheers luke

This may fit the bill? I bought one of these from CDNN, for just over $500. Super accurate with lots of nice features. They copied a 700 bolt, and added an oversized extractor. The bolt locks when on safety (2 position). Super stiff stock, with fiberglass added....even has a slight right hand palm swell and a cushy recoil pad. The receiver takes 2 piece model 700 bases. Mine shoots sub MOA with 165 grain accubonds...I put QR rings on a Leupold 6x42 with the LRD duplex, and then sighted the iron sights for 220 grain core-locks. Oh yeah, it has the best factory trigger I've ever seen, and super simple to adjust. I set mine at 2.5lbs and it breaks like glass. As you can tell, I'm really sold on this rifle. (And to the double rifle guys....NO, the muzzles are not ground!!!) Andy #3

http://www.sabatti.it/en/Our-p...OX_SYN_#.WJYIcn9BEuM

no meaningful ballistic difference, which ammo is more to hand? accurate an inexpensive? a yugo in 8mm is both!

Trying to justify the 30-06 against the 308 or visa versa just has no justification to it as what applies to one, applies to the other..Your thoughts on using the 130 gr.bullet loaded down in the .308 applies as well to the 30-06...At best there is only 100 FPS difference in the two with the plus going to the 06 I suppose if you want to split hairs...

I have both, the .308 in a Savage 99EG, the 30-06 in a Pre 64 mod. 70 fwt, and a Ruger 77 custom..

There is no difference at all until you go to 180 bullets and that's iffy, but with 200 gr. bullets or larger he 06 reigns..but this shouldn't apply to your grand kids, maybe so it would to you..

Id pick the 30-06 myself, but that's just prejudice on my part.

quote:

Atkinson wrote:
Not that it would make much difference either way but I would pick the .308 Win. for a youngster,

. . .

quote:

the 06 reigns..but this shouldn't apply to your grand kids,
maybe so it would to you..

Id pick the 30-06 myself, but that's just prejudice on my part.

Thank you for maybe inadvertently demonstrating the tension.
When I start to give more thought to the grandkids I lean to the 308.
When I think about what I might want to do with the rifle myself I start thinking about heavier loads in a 30-06. (I might go modern light with a 165gn CEB Laser at 2850fps.)

The choice may end up with the best deal on a particular rifle.

I have a Model 70 Featherweight Compact (13" factory LOP) in .308 and a Model 70 Featherweight in .30-06 (that I had cut to 13" LOP with a 1" pad) for my daughters to use with the Hornady Custom Lite ammunition.

You can get most rifles LOP cut down a bit (had a synthetic 6.8 SPC Remington bolt rifle cut a bit for them as well), but going to 12.5" if you want a 1" pad may run a little too close the the rear swivel base.

Ruger makes a Hawkeye Compact Model 77 at 12.5 LOP. I like the feel of the safety on the Model 70 better, and I like to have a full pad on these to reduce recoil just a little more.

After all this, I have found that in a pinch they can shoot my rifles with full loads just fine, but the shorter LOP is definitely a better fit. My girls are grown (more or less) so shorter guns with lighter loads make sense for the younger ones you are thinking about.

I did have a short Encore stock set made for my oldest when she was about twelve, but she outgrew that in 1-2 years. 13" is short enough to fit them and long enough I can shoot it.

I'm not "up" on current production, but for years I have used a Rem M700 308 20" barrel for demonstration, gun handling exercises and live fire for hunter education classes. I received the rifle for my 14th birthday and was rather small for my age, so over my objections the stock was shortened. It's the ADL model with blind magazine. for the live fire with smaller kids and those afraid of recoil I've loaded 18 grs SR4759 and 170 gr flatnose bullets. In addition to having been handled by something about 1000 students in the last 25 years the rifle for several years was my main hunting rifle going on trips across the US and Alaska. I used Norma factory loads with 180 gr Nosler bullets, however for several years I've been handloading. If you can find something similar, you won't be disappointed.

I helped a new shooter sight in his Mossberg rifle some months back. I was favorably impressed with the it. It shot well, handled well and was an attractive rifle. I can't vouch for all of them but this rifle was a keeper.
Just shot 3-shot groups for zeroing the scope but they were all well under an inch.

quote:

I have a Model 70 Featherweight Compact (13" factory LOP) in .308

So do I, and while I cannot speak about how it would perform in Africa, I can tell you that they are a great little rifle. Easy to carry and shoot. Mine is called the "custom compact", which is an older model (using the original Model 70 type trigger). I think the new ones use a different trigger.

Anyway, don't make your decision without checking one out!

inexpesive is the ruger american rifle. ive heard only good things about this rifle.

Started my first son on a Tikka T3 Lite in .308Win. First 3 shot group he shot was a one holer. For the money I can't think of a better rifle. The action is as smooth as I've ever operated in a factory rifle. And I like the detachable magazine for working with kids. Drop the mag and put it in your own pocket when you want to make sure the rifle stays unloaded.

Just add a little to the discussion, I bought a Remington 660 .308 last year mainly because I just like those little carbines. After my wife shot it she informed me that it is now HER rifle. I can't complain I've been promising I would help her find a lighter rifle than her M700 Remington BDL she bought years ago.

One of the things she liked about it was since the barrel is 20 inches long the weight is more back than her 22 inch .270 is. Woman and kids don't have the muscle strength to hold a longer, more weight forward rifle as well. I had never really thought about this before but it made sense. It's not just the total weight (the m660 is pretty light at 6 1/4 lbs) but it's where the weight is centered. She can plain handle the shorter rifles better. So for a kid that might be something to also take into consideration when choosing a rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
Just add a little to the discussion, I bought a Remington 660 .308 last year mainly because I just like those little carbines. After my wife shot it she informed me that it is now HER rifle. I can't complain I've been promising I would help her find a lighter rifle than her M700 Remington BDL she bought years ago.

One of the things she liked about it was since the barrel is 20 inches long the weight is more back than her 22 inch .270 is. Woman and kids don't have the muscle strength to hold a longer, more weight forward rifle as well. I had never really thought about this before but it made sense. It's not just the total weight (the m660 is pretty light at 6 1/4 lbs) but it's where the weight is centered. She can plain handle the shorter rifles better. So for a kid that might be something to also take into consideration when choosing a rifle.

This is helpful on barrel length.
The Ruger American comes in 22" and compact 18". At the moment I'm leaning to 22" because of concerns on loudness with 18". Tikka Compact and Win m70compact have 20" barrels.

Thirty+ years ago my 11-year old son used a 222, but it was long for offhand shooting. At 12 he used a 270 with a 14"-LOP with 22" barrel--he always looked for a rest, against a tree, over the hood, on a hand-hat lying on a rock, etc. Looking for a rest is a good idea, but there are many times when a person wants to be capable of shooting 50-100 yards offhand. Maybe for the kids, after they are more fully grown.

My question, without having access to testing, is whether a 12.5" LOP on a 22" barrel, e.g., lightweight Ruger American, will be usable for a kid.

I am also partial to 10"barrel twist for a 30-caliber. Some of the companies produce their 30-06 in 10" twist, but the 308 in 11" or 12" twist, making the longer monolithic bullets more marginally stable.

More follow up on the Tikka Compact 308win.
It uses an 11" twist.

A CEB 165gnLazer at 2700 fps will have a stability factor of 1.22, considered fairly marginal. In order to get a a decent stability factor a person needs to drop down to the 150gnTTSX at 2800fps. The stability factor of the 150TTSX in 11" twist raises to 1.54. I wish that Tikka used a 10" twist.

Tanz,

I don't believe the muzzle blast of an 18" barreled .308 Winchester would be louder than an 18" barreled .500 B&M.

I personally didn't find the muzzle blast of the .500 B&M (18" barrel), .50 B&M (16.25" barrel), .458 B&M (18" barrel), or the .416 B&M (20" barrel) to be excessive compared to longer barreled smaller calibered rifles when "not wearing hunting ear protection".

That said, if you're concerned about "extra blast noise" why not get "hunting ear protestors" for the grandkids; even the cheaper ones would cut the noise edge of any short barreled rifle.

Also to answer your other question. Make your primary decision/selection for the grandkids and then purchase a synthetic stock with your LOP for those occasions where you decide to use the rifle...

416 Tanzan I recently did what you are contemplating. I found a Ruger American Stainless all weather compact rifle for $300.00 on CDNN. They had them in several chamberings but I opted for the .308Win.

It's nothing special to look at or hold but that darn thing will shoot 3/4" groups with the cheapest brass cased 150gr FMJ surplus ammo I found. It will also shoot 1/2" groups with the Federal 168gr SMK match ammo. I shot two groups back to back with the same results.

The compact has an 18" barrel and 1" shorter length of pull than the standard American rifle.

I bought this rifle so I could throw it in the truck and not worry about it. Also since it's such a common caliber I could buy ammo at any store be it Walmart or a mom and pop store that has ammo on their shelves.

While I think a 20" barrel is ok for a .308 I'm not sure an 18" barrel wouldn't have too much muzzle blast. I've never had one that short so I personally can't say but to a new shooter muzzle blast can intimidate them. I know I sure don't like it.

Another way to move the weight back is to use a lighter contour barrel. My wife handled my m70 featherweight 22" barreled .30-06 and she did ok except I had it sighted in for 180 grain bullets so it has a fair amount of recoil. I've been using 150 grain bullets in that m660 .308 mentioned earlier to keep the recoil down a bit. I haven't handled some of your choices but before I bought the little Remington I was considering getting her a Winchester model 70 featherweight compact in something like 7mm-08. It has a 20" barrel and a 12 1/2 length of pull.

Regarding twist rate the Europeans seem to like 1 in 11 or 1 in 12 rates for their .30 caliber rifles. Long ago I had a Husqvarna lightweight .30-06 with a 20" 1 in 12 twist barrel that shot 180 grain bullets just fine. I still kick myself today for ever selling that rifle. With certain powders though that short barrel sure lit up the sky with its flash. I couldn't say how the new longer for weight monolithic bullets would do. They didn't exist then.

In my opinion if you find a rifle that is fairly light, has the weight centered more in their hands with a shorter barrel but not too short, or a lighter contoured barrel and load it to keep the recoil in a reasonable range to start I believe your grand kid will do just fine. I have grand kids too so I know how much you want to start them off right. Enjoy the journey with them it's well worth the effort and a lot of satisfaction watching them grow.

I had a .308 in a Ruger INt. mod 77 manlicher, SS with wood stock and a 18 inch barrel, it duplicated a 300 Savage for the most part. but some loads were right up there with a .308..It was handy and really a neat little gun, but I sold it for big bucks, they made a run of them in several calibers, they sold out and the price went sky high...

The muzzle blast wasn't bad at all..

I would lean towards the Ruger American, cheap, and it will shoot.