I went on the FN Herstal web site and clicked of the Winchester link.
The Winchester page shows a few versions of the M70 rifle available.
The "find a dealer" link showed no north american dealers but lots of dealers in every other continent or county.

Is the M70 back in limited production, or is this just old stock being sold off?

IIRC, older mfg actions used, nor currently made.

That said, a contract was made when the plant was shut down that NO M70 rifles were to be made ANYWHERE for 2 years. Per SHOT Show winchester employee.

Per above, I'd look for someone to re-mfg outside the US, perhaps Browning's Japanese mfg Miroku. A possibility.....

Really the M70 is still being produced. Not as a winchester though. FN makes their Special Police Rifle (aka police bolt rifle) on the 'pre-64' model 70 action design. So really you can still get a model 70 for $1400. It just won't say winchester on it. These are made at their plant in Virginia. It would be nice if they decide to start the line up again they could very easily produce them there.

Our local Browning rep told us resumption of M70 production, on a limited basis, would be announced at the 2008 Shot Show. Stay tuned.

quote:

Originally posted by greenjoy:

Is the M70 back in limited production, or is this just old stock being sold off?

Who cares?

Ouch! Wish everyone would refrain from putting others/their questions down.

Choices of mfg. and varying consumer taste are a good thing to all, for quality and price control. It would be a dull world if we all looked alike, thought alike, sounded alike, and acted alike, and there was not the choices we have in everything around us.

I think it's apparent if someone asks a question, THEY care. Greenjoy, excuse this person, they must have been having a bad day. Good question.

I recommend the movie Evan Almighty. At the end, a point is made about changing the world by one Act of Random Kindness at a time. ARK for the acronymn.

Now back to the topic, my thoughts about the FN rifles were based on various reports that there were actions previously mfg and sent to them for assembling the rifles. The post above re: Browning, same owner of Winchester, so I imagine that is good advice, next Jan. could be good news for M70 fans.

Personally, I think the M70 is a good design and like the actions. Had mixed results with guns mfg.....accuracy, but still like the actions. FN's reputation on accuracy shows what the M70 can do when attention is paid to details assembling a rifle. Bedding, consistent good barrels, etc. comes to mind. My M70 coyote had a barrel issue, very visible to the eye, but other Featherweights I owned were fine in every way. I think quality control did not help Winchester's newer M70 guns, but there were many good ones made IMHO.

quote:

Per above, I'd look for someone to re-mfg outside the US, perhaps Browning's Japanese mfg Miroku. A possibility.....

Gee, if Miroku made them, the M 70 would be a good rifle again..............

I have nothing against the quality of what I have seen them produce. My former 1885 low wall was SWEET. Oh, did I tell you it was VERY accurate. Buddy put the first 2 of 3 in 1/2" at 200 yds, 243 cal. Avg. well under MOA.

the fn special police rifles are made on mdle 70 actions. mine has a 24" barrel and shoots quite well.

SAY " A M E N " to dave bush comment on winchester !

for years winchester sold rubbish to unsespecting customers.

they got what they deserve, OUT OF BUSINESS !

good riddance, may they r.i.p.

I am a Winchester fan and wish them and all sportsman that enjoy Winchester the very best to return. The M70 came to life in 1936.

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
SAY " A M E N " to dave bush comment on winchester !

for years winchester sold rubbish to unsespecting customers.

they got what they deserve, OUT OF BUSINESS !

good riddance, may they r.i.p.

Tom
You are shortsighted, uninformed, biased and just plain WRONG. The company sold the best that came out of their factory, the UNION drove USRAC out of business by requiring huge raises and wouldn't take QC feedback.. and that drove the REJECT rate outside of bounds, and USRAC could not make money per unit.

the UNION killed the quaility, and drove up prices, and the COMPANY tried to manage the bst for the CUSTOMER.

id-10-t error for tom.

I still have 2 model 7 classics.
My .338 is really prety and shoots prety well too.
MY 7mmSTW is not not as prety but shoots incredibly well.
Iff I could change anything about them it would be an all steel floor plate.
...tj3006

A quick call to Williams or Pacific Tool and presto! an all steel floor plate.

Jeffe you are 100% right on the money!
Good call telling it like it is.
M70 is a great action and my favorite hands down, Springfields and Mausers are 2nd and 3rd place with Rugers right in there and the rest are not even on the radar............for me.
However I have friends that rave about their Howas, CZ's, WeatherB's, Remingtons and Savages and I don't begrudge them a bit for their choice.
Here is one customer anxiously awaiting the 2008 announcement at the SHOT show.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
SAY " A M E N " to dave bush comment on winchester !

for years winchester sold rubbish to unsespecting customers.

they got what they deserve, OUT OF BUSINESS !

good riddance, may they r.i.p.

Tom
You are shortsighted, uninformed, biased and just plain WRONG. The company sold the best that came out of their factory, the UNION drove USRAC out of business by requiring huge raises and wouldn't take QC feedback.. and that drove the REJECT rate outside of bounds, and USRAC could not make money per unit.

the UNION killed the quaility, and drove up prices, and the COMPANY tried to manage the bst for the CUSTOMER.

id-10-t error for tom.

Jeff, as I read your post, you AGREE with Tomo and I. I don't care WHY they turned out such junk, the fact is that they did and that is precisely why they went out of business. I agree with tomo. It's time to let them rest in piece or ship the whole mess over to japan.

Dave

P.S 6.5BR...Just because I don't share your opinion does not mean "I must have been having a bad day."

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
SAY " A M E N " to dave bush comment on winchester !

for years winchester sold rubbish to unsespecting customers.

they got what they deserve, OUT OF BUSINESS !

good riddance, may they r.i.p.

Tom
You are shortsighted, uninformed, biased and just plain WRONG. The company sold the best that came out of their factory, the UNION drove USRAC out of business by requiring huge raises and wouldn't take QC feedback.. and that drove the REJECT rate outside of bounds, and USRAC could not make money per unit.

the UNION killed the quaility, and drove up prices, and the COMPANY tried to manage the bst for the CUSTOMER.

id-10-t error for tom.

Just to be contrary, who were the talking monkeys in managment that signed the contracts with the unions that were so bad? It takes two to tango.

Dean

the unions took a 10% pay cut, and agreed to a 2-year wage freeze in exchange for a profit sharing program and job security for the two years. The upper management team took bonuses over two million dollars during that time frame, and golden parachutes when the company closed...

Fortunately, not a single swinging richard from USRAC will ever have anything to do with the new company...ever...ever again.

Rich
DRSS

I have 6 m70 classics & they are all good accurate rifles. I had a 1st year supergrade that had something freeze up in the front of the bolt it was replaced by the factory with another with really nice wood.

Peasonally I like the post 64 control feeds better than the pre 64's.

Blaming the unions is too simplistic of an answer. What about us consumers that would not pay a little extra?? What about the fact that Winchester was owned by a corporation that owns nearly all the arms manufacturers in the world. It was clear that Winchester workers were doomed, just like most current American manufacturing workers. We are outsourcing every thing we are a nation of consumption not production and it is very saddening too me.

There is yet another reason why Winchester failed. It was also because of a guy by the name of William Batterman Ruger. Ruger made what shooters wanted and he did it better than Winchester. Survival of the fittest. That's the way the market works.

quote:

Originally posted by Siam_Krag:
Blaming the unions is too simplistic of an answer. What about us consumers that would not pay a little extra?? What about the fact that Winchester was owned by a corporation that owns nearly all the arms manufacturers in the world. It was clear that Winchester workers were doomed, just like most current American manufacturing workers. We are outsourcing every thing we are a nation of consumption not production and it is very saddening too me.

True. When a company fails due to economic reasons, there are always a number of causes, but the biggest contributing factor is lack of visionary leadership. And it is upper management's responsibility to furnish this. Leadership requires a creative view of the future Today, too many CEO's are only interested in this year's bottom line. It doesn't matter how well you do this year, if you are not going to be able to be here next year........Stockholders have a right to be concerned about return on investment, but should be MORE concerned about losing their investment entirely!

I think Siam has some good points. The consumers have to share part of the blame. Back in the 1950s a typical sportsman paid a higher percentage of his income for a Winchester and was happy with a decent product. They were also content in owning a few good items instead of several poor quality ones. We complain about the quality of modern production firearms but how many of us (me included) own more of them than our grandfather did? The good news is that there are many custom makers (and buyers) now that recognize this and will produce a fine firearm for those of use willing to part with a higher portion of our paychecks to own something of some quality.

Deja Vu? This thread is the same that just died down on 24 HR not too long ago!

Once you lose your market share which could be due to a number of factors it is really hard to get it back. You can make a lousy product for a while and ride on your reputation, but sooner or later it will catch up with you. Like General Motors. Making gas guzzlers for years and now caught in the gas crisis like in the 1970's. They and Ford have some newer good products, but getting people back from Toyota and Honda is going to be hard.

I had the money and the inclination to buy a Model 70 30-06 featherweight in 2005, but the ones I looked at didn't really look all that good. I have 4 others (no 30-06) that I am really happy with. When they shipped the all aluminum bottom metal I walked away (There were some with the williams all steel, but no 30-06).

I am looking forward to seeing the M70 made again. From what I have read it will be made at the FN plant in Columbia, SC.

Not sure if I will buy one or not but if its made in Japan forget it.

Who set the standards for the QC dept, Winchester or the union? Who set the fit tolerances, Winchester or the union? To blame the demise of Winchester on the union is ignorant at best. The bean counters in the front office had as much to do with it as anyone. Lower your QC standards and more product goes out the door at a lower cost, reaping a higher profit and a shitty product. Did the union make these decisions? It's amazing how bad management get's absolutely no blame in this but the evil union caused this true blue apple pie unsuspecting company to go out of business. HA! the ignorance and arrogance I read every time this subject comes up.

Think it's all unions and management doesn't make a difference? Look at GM with Saturn and all the foreign car companies building cars in the south now. GM needed to get out of Detroit to build their new Saturn line because of the evil unions. They built all the factories in right to work states just like Nissan, Toyota and several other foreign makers did. Guess what, GM makes shit cars in the south just like they do in Detroit while Nissan, Toyota, BMW and Mercedes are making nice cars and profits! I guess that damn union is to blame here too. Wait, none of the Saturn plants are union. You don't think management is to blame do you? Management sets the QC standards not the union.

If Winchester made a nice rifle and went out of business because they couldn't pay their bills I would probably agree the union had a hand in their demise, but the simple fact of the matter is Winchester turned out shit for a product and paid the ultimate price for it.

Terry

Dave, my apologies sir,

I respect all of the insight those bring to AR, many good comments here on this matter. It is a sad reality in this country to have lost so much work overseas, and I agree about CEO's, having worked for MANY US corporations, where stock price drives it all, and the CEOs milk it, at the cost to employees who NEED long term employment, not making wages at thousands of times over the wage of ONE worker underneath them. Enron is the perfect example at it's worst case scenario. About the Enron guy who died of a heart attack I believe before the court case was over......was that 'bad karma?' ....may be some truth about that eh?

I think the pay that many CEO's get is out of control and something should be in place to better protect the common man. Let's not get started on how government has gotten too big here!

Look forward to healthy debates/info exchange here w/o mud slinging.

Oh, re: Ruger, MY experience has been positive with their QC and their service when needed on very few occasions. Being publicly traded may have had something to do with quality...that aside, I think shooters/Model 70 lovers would appreciate a return of Winchester actioned rifles if built well and priced affordably. WHERE they may be built and if one chose to buy is a personal choice I realize and respect.

The further back in time we go when goverments and cooperations were nothing compared to what they are today,life was good.

I took a post grad course, and the instructor said there was a guaranteed "B" for the course for the best one page thesis explaining why things are so much harder today than they were twenty-five years ago. I won.

Answer in a nutshell: we are always torn between looking back over our shoulder at the past, where we "got 'er dun...", then looking around as we try to "get 'er dun..." today, and peering into a dim future and trying to see what might need to "git dun...". God sets scenarios in front of us each morning, some for the day, some for however long it takes, and we haven't a clue at that point except past experience. Our reference to "the good old days..." is generally from a successful standpoint, ie we "got 'er dun...".

The ancients said "...those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it...". Because they didn't "git 'er dun..." then and learn anything. Or forgot the lesson, and now have to "git 'er dun" again with out reference points.

Hire and keep good help.
Have a plan for today, the year, and the forseeable future.
Don't get greedy or cut corners.
Take care of your customers.
Live well, and make time for your family.

I spoke with Bill Ruger several years ago at a SHOT Show, and I am paraphrasing what he told me was the key to his company's success.

Rich
DRSS

Sounds like Wise advice. Thanks for the post.

You know what killed Winchester? WAL-MART.
Winchester wanted the order volume that Wal-Mart offered and they adopted the "Wal-Mart Way" mentality that they could produce ever higher volumes at ever lower prices.

I think Winchester's demise is a direct example of the fallacy of trying to produce high volumes of cheap products and lower volumes of better products from the same assembly lines. There's plenty of blame to go around: the unions wanted the jobs that came from the production volumes; management wanted the bonuses that came from incremental sales. QC was a failure and profits disappeared.

The gun business is a very low growth business. Big players like Ruger, Remington, Savage and Browning/Winchester are all fighting over the same piece of pie. None of them seem particulary adept at differentiating their product offering and delivering the quality that most sportsmen want. The manufacturers rely on gimmicks and low pricing in order to move volume. None of them seem willing to downsize into a niche player with a higher quality product offering.

When even the "Custom Shop" can't turn out a decent quality rifle the first time it leaves the factory, they should know they have a problem.

Winchester was operating on dated machinery, they pushed for high production numbers and cutback on QC. Labor might or might not have been to blame, but not likely, it was the same union and labor that made high quality firearms 10 yrs prior to their demise. I am sure the Clinton justice dept an their zeal to ban and fine legitimate commerce protected by the constitution might have made mgmt nervous about re-tooling.

If USRC is to remain cometitive, they will need high tolerance CNC machines and processes to keep up with the Jonses so to speak. There are still a few american manufacturers doing well, like Remington and Ruger, and lets not forget Weatherby's MkV is being made in USA by SACO.

Again, corporations lack soul, innovative quality projects are made by people with a passion for what they do, not a passion for how much money they can make.

John

What is "SACO"???

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
You know what killed Winchester? WAL-MART.
Winchester wanted the order volume that Wal-Mart offered and they adopted the "Wal-Mart Way" mentality that they could produce ever higher volumes at ever lower prices.

I think Winchester's demise is a direct example of the fallacy of trying to produce high volumes of cheap products and lower volumes of better products from the same assembly lines. There's plenty of blame to go around: the unions wanted the jobs that came from the production volumes; management wanted the bonuses that came from incremental sales. QC was a failure and profits disappeared.

The gun business is a very low growth business. Big players like Ruger, Remington, Savage and Browning/Winchester are all fighting over the same piece of pie. None of them seem particulary adept at differentiating their product offering and delivering the quality that most sportsmen want. The manufacturers rely on gimmicks and low pricing in order to move volume. None of them seem willing to downsize into a niche player with a higher quality product offering.

When even the "Custom Shop" can't turn out a decent quality rifle the first time it leaves the factory, they should know they have a problem.

That big RAT Walmart screwed everyone.About the rifle companies improving their product,I don't think there is much of a demand for best quality.Most hunters I talk to don't want to pay more than 200 dollars for a rifle.

I also believe that another serious factor for the demise of Winchester, and possiblely other gun companies in the future is the fact that in most gun shops they also have used guns. How many of us have been in a gun shop and seen a pre-64 with a scope for less than a new Winchester classic?? Maybe not know that the model 70 is gone but there was a time in the recent past.

Also didn't Winchester have new CNC machinery down in one of the Carolinas? and just assembled the rifles in New Haven?

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:


The manufacturers rely on gimmicks and low pricing in order to move volume. None of them seem willing to downsize into a niche player with a higher quality product offering.

When even the "Custom Shop" can't turn out a decent quality rifle the first time it leaves the factory, they should know they have a problem.

ForestB, I AGREE!

That is also the reason we have a plethora of new cartridges that duplicate everything already on the market. Witness the Winchester Short Magnums.

For what it's worth. I feel that the Model 70 should of been called a different model number in 1964. Then again changed model numbers in 1990 when the controlled feed model appeared. There are too many differances in these models to be named the same. Like it or not the Model 70 remains one of the more popular rifles in the collector, and hunter field. Unless they are gonna make them like the original Pre'64 style I hope the name changes. Let this grand old gun rest in peace!

The Winchester WSM's and WSSM's are good ideas based on what we've learned about case design.

Dave Bush,I thought the same at first,but know I think that more cartridges are a good thing.