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| one of us |
Hello. This is not, by all means, meant to offend anybody. I have, trought this forum, come in touch with a lot of American friends. And they seem surprisingly intelligent! Dont get agry now!! What I'm pointing at is: Why does a fine rifle have to have the complete user manual, printed on the barrel of the rifle?? I guess this has to do with all the unemployed lawyers, looking for somthing to sue? Am I on to something here?? And once again, dont be offended!!(If youre not the owner of a large rifle-company.) ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} [ 05-09-2003, 01:29: Message edited by: 460wby ] | ||
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| one of us |
460wby, I think I'll add a little fuel to the fire; I think we lawyers are only part of the equation and problem. However, without a client looking to make someone pay, there would be a lot fewer cases filed. The bottom line: there is a LARGE portion of the American public looking to hit the law suit lotto. Greedy lawyers - sure are; greedy clients - I have never had one who wasn't! | |||
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Moderator |
That and the 5kg triggers ![[Mad]](images/icons/mad.gif){kind=icon} Think of it as guranteed employment for laywers and gunsmiths ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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one of us |
460, I'm sure you've heard of ambulance chasers. America is where they come from. We've got lawyers that literally advertise on TV and Radio that "you may have a valuable claim, call us". If they could get the laws changed so that the loser had to pay costs of defense we could shrink the amount of lawyers by 75%. Unfortunately since most of our representatives seem to be lawyers, or tied to the hip of the lawyers, nothing ever happens. | |||
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| one of us |
AS ONE of the "maligned many" because of my BAR card holder status, I can add my $.02 When you have people who put HOT coffe between their legs and they are suprised and they get burned when they do something.."creative" to burn themselves... when you have someone cutting their fingers off because they removed the safety guard on their circular saw, and they claim they should have been prevented from being able to do so... When you have people shooting themselves or other people who say "I shouldn't have been able to pull the trigger so easily"... When you have seen a society that has been almost "trained" to believe they can't be held responsible for their own stupidity... When you have all this, you have the necessary breeding ground for people to file litigation...because it really isn't their money, it's the "insurance companies" money. SO it is the insurance company telling manufacturers that they have to put the instruction books on gun barrels and the stickers saying "do not place your child inside to give rides" on the doors of microwave ovens. What we really need is just a smarter group of people, who take/are held responsible for their own actions. (you can REALLY tell I don't have anything to do with civil practice) | |||
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| one of us |
Just buy a Winchester? | |||
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one of us |
Think about it guys, if there were no lawyers filing lawsuits, there would be no stupid clients filing lawsuits. You guys in the leagal field should be policing your own. I agree 460wby, I live here & I don't understand why a warning label is on my lawn mower telling me not to put my hand/foot under it WHEN THE POWER IS ON????????? ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} I REALIZE EVERYONE NEEDS TO MAKE A LIVING, BUT GEEZE!! | |||
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One of Us |
quote:Now dont get mad while I serve you up a backhanded compliment.. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} You sure you arent just posting this because you've got an axe to grind? | |||
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| one of us |
I don't know(not a lawyer) how this kind of litigation take place in court, but if it involves a jury then it only takes the slightest effort from the lawyer to persuade the jury that adding a new warning can perhaps save lives. Those randomly chosen as jurors are just general public, which is the most gullible constituent in a court of law. The lawyer just show the slide of a woman with a scarred face or a child with toes missing, then tell them by adding a new warning etc., can prevent someone from getting hurt in the future, the jury thinks it makes sense, plus they don't want to lose sleep over the notion that their declining leading to someone's misfortune, therefore bang! bang! they've won. People are educated to be benevolent and considerate(I believe people are good in nature), not educated to be wise. As long as the public are suckers when it comes to protecting someone else and there's good money, there will be litigations like these. They say in Japan, they put "CAUTION: MAY CAUSE DROWSINESS" on bottles of SLEEPING PILLS, so be grateful you are in North America. Oh no, I just ran over my bag of potato chips with my car and the chips are all crumbled now, they shouldn't have made this possible. Now if you'll excuse me I have a snack company to sue. Pyrotek CAUTION : THIS PERSON MIGHT RAMBLE | |||
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Q. What do you call a thousand lawyers at the bottom of Sydney harbour. A. ......a good start. | |||
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Pyrotek: your over-simplifying the process, quite a bit. Having represented companies that have been sued and representing individuals suing companies, I can tell you from personal experience that it takes quite a bit of work, and REALLY GOOD facts, to ever get a case to trial. In Michigan, less than 5% of cases ever get to trial. Most cases are settled or dismissed. If you want to have an intellectual debate about our litigious society then you should consider this: affluent areas/counties produce the most conservative juries who do not like to give away money, while lower-income areas tend to be much more willing to give money to a plaintiff. As I said in my initial post, there is a portion of society who think of lawsuits as lottery tickets. | |||
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one of us |
Lawyers are the larval form of politicians. The largest contributors to Senatorial and Congressional elections is the US Trial Lawyers Assoc. Is it any surprise that little gets done on a national level to resolve the law suit insanity. If the highest possible award to a plantiff was $10,000.00, this silliness would come to a halt. If the plantiff looses the case, the plantiff's lawyer and the plantiff get to split the costs incured by the defendant, would slow things down a bit. Judges would be recommended for appointment by citizens from the jury pool, not the Bar Assoc. If judges were reconfirmed every 5 years upon the recomendation of a panel of people from the jury pool, none of which are lawyers or employed or have been employed in the legal profession, ding bat judges would be eliminated. If the judges would throw out the more stupid cases that come before them and censure the lawyer who brought it before the judge's court, say with a 10 days in jail and a $1,000.00 fine for contempt of court for the lawyer and the plaintiff, things might slow down. There is no reason for the US to have 90% of all the lawyers in the world. About the only statistic that I can think of that would be worse is a like percentage of people in the US having STDs. Jim | |||
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Wstrnhuntr. I dont know if I understand exactly what you mean. But, of course, I want to make a rumble and a good discussion. But this is'nt something I made up. The complete user manual on the barrels are uggly. Then I take my rifle for a trip, I'm not out to read! If I was I'd rather take a book with me. | |||
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quote:And you have to turn the gun sideways to read the story on the barrel. Where's the bore pointed? Sounds like a potential claim to me! | |||
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"most claims are settled" Yep, sure are. The lawyers play a finely tuned game. Make it cheaper to settle than go thru the expense and ill publicity of a trial where even if they win, the corporation loses. Just like other blood sucking parasites, the lawyers don't want to kill the host outright, they want to grow fat while nibbling the victim to death. If we don't have severe tort reform, and that right soon, this country is on its way out. | |||
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| <allen day> |
If you really and truly hate American rifles, I suggest that you don't buy any more of them..... AD | ||
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Beemanbeme: Tort Reform - oh man, socialized law. Be careful, you might get what you ask for. The ONLY entity that benefits from tort reform are the insurance companies and businesses that get sued. None of the attorneys (Plaintiff or Defense) come out better and the injured party, and I an not talking about coffee on the lap or a bad BMW paint job, gets screwed - BIG TIME. From a public policy stand point, tort reform provides a dis-incentive for a manufacturer to make a defect-free produce if they know that any potential liability is capped. How much are you worth to your family? How much are your____ (arms, legs, eyes, hands) worth to you? I promise you that it is a hell of a lot more than you will ever recover here in Michigan if you lose one/all of them. Don't get me wrong, I know that the system is sometimes abused, but most of the time the results are fair. The system works better than any other system of justice, anywhere in the world. | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
I certainly agree with your point here. | ||
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| one of us |
Lawyers wrapping themselves in the flag and blaming everyone else. That's what you get when you solicit opinions and lawyers are trolling the boards looking for clients. That they are able to sleep after getting a scumbag off the hook and then can blame someone else for not convicting them....It's this type of individual that makes America a little worse for wear everyday. But they don't care, which is the reason we are forced to teach "Ethics" in school. Just wish sometimes it sunk in. | |||
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quote:What problem do you have with loser pays? If you think that basic change will not weed out the bucketfuls of frivolous claims that are filed every year, you must have something very big to gain from the status quo. I am not a lawyer. I am not a corporate executive. I am not the owner of a manufacturing business. I WANT pain and suffering damages capped, I WANT the loser in a suit to pay for the winner's expenses. And I WANT punitive damages to be capped. | |||
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If you, allen day, had read my post properly you would have discover that I dont basicly hate American guns. I think most of them are as good as any, and maybe even better than the most of them. BUT there is one thing thats dragging them down in value, and that is the whole "old testament" on the barrel. I can see that you really took the bait! | |||
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Ok, so now we jump from a good discussion of the problems with the abuse of civil litigation, to an attack on the American system of justice...Ok, I'll bite: quote:This is quite an indictment of me personally, lawyers in general and the judicial system in total. | |||
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| Moderator |
My my, seems some of the barristers are a bit sensitive Since I'm married to an attorney, and one of shooting buddies is an attorney, I've learned that there are at least two decent ones in the world I look at tort reform in the same vain as unions. Abuses by those in power put bring about undesired consequences, but consequences that are earned none the less. | |||
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I think we need to do something about our system of juris prudence before these ridiculas settlements put this country into ruin..I have a real problem with that..I have a problem with someone else being held responsible for someones action. I have a problem with courts that make law as opposed to interpeting law, I have a problem with the fact that guilt or innocense is secondary to precedure and technical garrrbaaage, and the truth seldom comes out in a trail... I think our courts and politicians (most are attourneys btw) are pretty much selling us down the drain and a lot of greedy folks and lawyers are makeing a lot of money in the process.. It appears that in many cases the honor system does not work.. I have a problem with attourneys that defend a client when they know he is guilty and even though it is against the law, it has become accepted therefore acceptence has taken precidence over law in this country.. I know there are a lot of arguements against my opinnion, and that I'm not interrested in them, my head is made up...I know a few very honest lawyers, car dealers, clergymen and cops, I know some that arn't.... I do know that it will continue until it destroys our way of life and decadence will declare victory, unless we the people and the good lawyers in this country fight the good fight... | |||
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| One of Us |
A lawyer is like a gun and the "client" is the gun owner. The client must pull the trigger. A lawyer with no client is like a an unloaded gun sitting on the table. A semi auto 223 with 30 shot magazine is more likely to encourage shooting bullets all over the place than is a Ruger Number 1 in 22 Hornet. In my opinion, those who wish to place restrictions on lawyers and associated activity are in fact supporting the principles behind "gun control" Mike [ 05-10-2003, 04:13: Message edited by: Mike375 ] | |||
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| one of us |
Just reading through this thread shows why the warning has to be on the barrel. Why plastic bags have to advise adults that they are not toys for children etc. How many posts on this thread say "It's the lawyers fault!"? Of course it is It is never your own fault. It is never the guy who goes to the lawyer saying "I think I deserve some money for...." It is the lawyers fault because he advertises on TV? So drunk driving is because a beer company advertises on TV? People in this country need to grow the F**K UP and start taking responsibility for themselves. And that does include some or many on this board as well as the general public. Common sense is an uncommon thing these days and that is going to be the ruin of all of us. So go ahead, sit back and blame the lawyer or this person or that group, but for God's sake don't DO anything about it. If you don't like the system work to get it changed. Oh wait what's that I hear "You can't change the system" How do you know have you tried? I am as guilty of it at times as others but in this country we have ways to effect change we are just to lazy to do it. We would rather bitch and complain and hope somebody else does it for us. Thus endeth the rant. Sean | |||
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I still say if they were no attorneys to bring suits then no law suits would be brought. DG, I can appreciate you defending your occpation/profession, but you honestly can't sit there & tell all of us that we don't need some kind of tort reform?! We all pay for the bad law suits, whether it is McDonalds, the ladder manuf. & yes even suits against the cops & other govt. officials. Tort reform would bring some relief. Manuf., for the most part, make a good product so they can sell it, not because they are afraid of a lawsuit.When a guy shoots himself in the foot w/ ANY gun, I have a hard time blaming anyone but the gun handler. Lawyers have pushed the society into it's current trend of "it's not my fault, it's __________ (fill in the blank). There area only (2) things I told my kids they couldn't grow up to be, & one of them is a liberal democrat, the other is any kind of trial lawyer. The rest is up to them. Yes I do have some friends that are both, but I make exceptions for many situations. [ 05-10-2003, 05:20: Message edited by: fredj338 ] | |||
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| one of us |
Shakespear had it right in King Henry. "First lets kill all the lawyers". Shakespear was a bard, but he was also a humorist. He poked the big stick right in the aye of the monster, and lived to tell the tail. pun intended. Lawyers dont rip off people, people rip off people. Lawyers are like guns. a lethal device with a safety that you should never trust. Keep pointed in a safe direction. beware unintended targets. never shoot at hard cases where a ricochet could injure others. keep away from children. KEEP LOCKED IN A SAFE AT ALL TIMES> | |||
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I still say if they were no attorneys to bring suits then no law suits would be brought Here is another version for you. If there were no guns to shoot people then no shootings would occur. Mike | |||
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Well put Mike / Lone Eagle. It's not the spoon's fault that the lady got fat. For those not aware, not all lawyers are plaintiff's attornies, i.e. not all lawyers are "bloodsucking leeches". If you are intelligent, a lawyer will draft your will. If you are ambitious, a lawyer will help direct your real estate ventures or you business direction. Our legal system sucks, but it is by far the best in the world. [ 05-10-2003, 06:46: Message edited by: recoiljunky ] | |||
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| <PWN> |
[ 05-17-2003, 07:01: Message edited by: PWN ] | ||
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| <'Trapper'> |
I rest my case - I think!! "Gun maker liable in shooting of boy" Jury also slaps parents, baby sitter with judgments in civil suit -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted: May 10, 2003 1:00 a.m. Eastern By Jon Dougherty � 2003 WorldNetDaily.com A California jury has found a firearms manufacturer partially liable in the accidental injury and crippling of a young boy in a unique court ruling against a gun maker. An Alameda County jury found Bryco Arms largely responsible for the injury of Brandon Maxfield, now 16, of Willits, nine years ago, the San Francisco Chronicle reported yesterday. According to the paper, Brandon was shot in the jaw April 6, 1994. He and a 12-year-old relative were being watched by a family friend who was living with them in their home temporarily. The Chronicle reported the 12-year-old believed some adult had asked him to get the gun out. When he did, according to the defense attorney in the case, the 20-year-old baby sitter – Larry William Moreford II – took the pistol from the boy. In the process of unloading it, he shot Brandon in the jaw. "He was trying to unload the gun," said Richard Ruggieri, Brandon's attorney. "In order to do that, he had to put it on 'fire.' The gun slipped in his hand and it went off. This was not a 'child playing with a gun' type of situation." Ruggieri said the family was "pleased but reserved" about the $50.9 million verdict, while acknowledging it could be some time before Brandon sees any money, if ever. The jury must first decide what part of the damages each defendant is responsible to pay, said Ruggieri. Two of the defendants in the case are Brandon's parents, as well as Moreford. Also throwing the verdict in doubt is the probability of an appeal. Assuming Brandon wins that appeal, he will still have to collect the money from defendants, which could also be a problem because of a bill passed last month by the U.S. House of Representatives protecting gun makers from liability. If passed into law in its current form, the bill – backed by the National Rifle Association – would eliminate almost all civil liability for gun makers, as WorldNetDaily reported earlier. Ruggieri said the bill may not affect Brandon's case, but he admitted he was concerned about its ramifications. "We're certainly concerned with it," Ruggieri said. "It would be a human tragedy if something like that would block something like this." And, the defense attorney told the paper, the case isn't about attacking gun rights. "This trial is not about the Second Amendment or the right to bear arms," he said. "This is just a case about Brandon." Regards, | ||
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| <Stoneybroke> |
I've been reading with great deal of interest. I can't imagine puting a cap on damages would have a positive effect. Look at the Ford Pinto with the flamethrower fuer tanks, ot the Ford "Exploders" rolling over on your family, or how about the Douglas jets with breakaway cargo doors. In all of the above, mamagers looked at probable accident rates, multiplied by average settlement, minus cost of a real fix. In ALL cases, they opted to go with the defective product, because it was cheaper, in their judgement than a fix. Just imagine what happens if we cap damages at 250K. Some possible solutions: Cap attorney fees on a cost plus basis. How about actual cost + billable hours + 10 percent? Second, bring criminal charges against beancounters that think they can place a value on MY life. I wonder if these folks could be prosecuted under RICO. They are parties to a criminal conspiracy! If so, they would lose all personal assets and spend a lot of years in a federal pen with no parole. If we can find a way to slow down the "ambulance chasers" and lock up the perps, the whole problem will evaporate. | ||
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one of us |
quote: Right on Allen, but excuse me, if his screen name (460WBY)is any indication, he didn't buy an American "rifle", but a gaudy pice of crap,that the legend on the barrel is the nicest thing about it, no matter where it was made! ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} Hows that for a fire starter?????? [ 05-10-2003, 20:41: Message edited by: MacD37 ] | |||
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| one of us |
With all due respect Mike375, guns don't do anything by themselves, but attorneys routinely file class action suits & "bogus" claims all of the time. I DO understand that not ALL lawyers are bloodsuckingbottomfeeders, but to those that are, evaluate your station in life & ask yourself; " Am I doing the right thing or is it just about the money"? Me thinks it's often just about the money. ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon} I appreciate that we all make a living doing something, but to justify some of the crap pulled off by trial lawyers as "feeding my family, etc." is like a thief, burglar, dope dealer, etc, doing the same for his family ( except a lawyers practice is legal extortion & robbery). As far as "the lawyers just doing their job", a good lawyer friend of mine told me long ago; it's not about justice or who is wrong/right, it's about which lawyer puts on the best show. Sorry guys JMO and you know what they say about those. [ 05-11-2003, 06:14: Message edited by: fredj338 ] | |||
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| one of us |
PWN, ROFLMAO. I read your morally high road post and was rather impressed until I saw you are an Oklahoma lawyer. Excluding you, of course, I daresay, per capita, there are more crooked lawyers in Oklahoma than in NYC. Is lawyer Bullock still getting rich at tax payers expense filing frivolous suits on behalf of convicted felons? | |||
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| one of us |
Jeez, you are a touchy little guy, methinks I touched a nerve. But thanks, with your reply you made my point, about blame, better than I ever could have. | |||
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| one of us |
Folks, I think you need to back off PWN some! I happen to know him personally, and I can tell you he's the real thing, and a good guy! I don't think any one of you would stay totally calm if you were called "A PIECE OF SHIT" simply because of your profession, or race, or religion,or the state you live in, by some one who knows absolutely nothing about you personally. The broad brush painting of anything, or anyone is simply wrong. There are plenty of ills in our justice system, but it is still the best system in the world. Blaming the people who argue the law, only when they argue it for someone "YOU" think shouldn't have representation,and praiseing that same person when he works for our own defense,is a little hypocritical, don't you think? If you are the one hurt,or wrongly accused, you want the guy who will go to bat for you, even though "HE" may think you guilty. To deny this same defense to others, you don't like, seems a little self serving to me! The job of decideing who is guilty is not the job of the prosecutor, or the defense , but the jury, who must decide which side has made the best case for their point of view. You know that old thing , YOU ARE INNOCENT,UNTILL PROVEN GUILTY! If this were not the case, then all we need is the cop to decide, and issue the punishment. I'm sure we all want a system like Brazil's police DEATH SQWADS! If you want to blame someone there are plenty people who you can rightly spend your venum on! First is the dope who wants to sue someone else for his own stupidity, and the people who are wrongly sued, who settle with these leaches, to avoid publicity, or the high costs of fighting for their rights, then passing that cost on the those who never sue for anything, in insurance costs, or raised prices, for their product. Those two are the ones responsible for the letigeous society we enjoy today, not the attorneys! [ 05-11-2003, 19:51: Message edited by: MacD37 ] | |||
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| one of us |
quote: Is this your opinion, only because you cant handle such a rifle yourself?? "The legend" on the barrel of my .460, says "460Wby."!! And I think that says it all: It is meant to be loaded with .460 Weatherby Magnum cartridges!! I think it's pretty obvious that keeping the head in front of the muzzle, when you pull the trigger, will "cause some serious injury". Let's end it there. I have got a bunch of serious answers to my question. And just to make one thing clear; I dont HATE American produced rifles (I have several), but only the detail about the warnings on the barrels. [ 05-12-2003, 00:47: Message edited by: 460wby ] | |||
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