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Does anyone have any knowledge of classic British rifles in 30-06? How about German mausers.? Im wondering about pre WW II. I know most British rifles were in British calibers but how many were in 30-06? According to what I've read the 300 H&H was developed to match the 30-06, so obviously it was highly thought of. Has any seen or heard or read of any. Captdavid "It's not how hard you hit 'em, it's where you hit 'em." The 30-06 will, with the right bullet, successfully take any game animal in North America up to 300yds. Get closer! | ||
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Don't know if it applies to your question, but, I have an old Griffin & Howe brochure that shows their "Standard" Mauser customs available in " .25h.p. , 7mm. , .30/06, .35 and .400 Whelen. " | |||
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Thanks, but Griffin & Howe was a U S company. Captdavid "It's not how hard you hit 'em, it's where you hit 'em." The 30-06 will, with the right bullet, successfully take any game animal in North America up to 300yds. Get closer! | |||
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Mauser, H&H, Jeffery, George Gibbs and others all chambered for the 30-06 under various designations. We see reference as US 9106 as in the case of Mauser or simply 7.65x63 or 7.6S We see various English names for the 30-06 even referenced as 300 Mauser in the 1930 Jeffery Catalog. The designation 30 Springfield is a popular reference in English catalogs. The Mauser Model C was chambered in 30-06. | |||
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I'm well aware of that. But they were using Mauser actions. That why I said "don't know if it applies to your question, but" Your welcome. | |||
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Griffin and Howe , Abercrombie and Fitch and Vanlengerke and Detmold directly imported Mausers and English guns and did put their own brand names to them. The primary agent was Vanlengkerke and Detmold G&H was bought by A&F in 1930 and A&F also bought Vanlengerke and Detmold in 1929 | |||
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Craigster, I ment no slight. Captdavid "It's not how hard you hit 'em, it's where you hit 'em." The 30-06 will, with the right bullet, successfully take any game animal in North America up to 300yds. Get closer! | |||
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Yes sir, the 30-06 is a world class cartridge, its popularity is world wide, and a favorite throught out the world, and rightly so, as it has proven itself without question, and remains so. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100814361 DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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I have reprints of the 1910-11 Eley catalogue and the 1925 Nobel Industries (Kynoch) catalogue on hand. The former contains no mention of the .30-06, but does list American lever-action cartridges from the .25-20 to the .50-110, including both the .30-30 and the ".303 (.301) Savage", but not the .30-40. On the other hand, the later list contains both the ".30 Rimless Rifle (U.S.A. Model, 1903)", with 41 grains of smokeless powder behind a 220 gr. "Metal-covered, Solid or Soft-nosed bullet" giving 2200 fps, and the ".30 Rimless Rifle (U.S.A. Model, 1906)", with 47 gr. of smokeless powder behind a 150 gr. solid pointed or copper-pointed bullet giving 2750 fps. It also lists the .30-40. From this, it would appear that interest in sporting use of the American bolt action military rounds in Britain arose subsequent to WWI, but was well established by the mid-1920s. Cheers, Al | |||
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I'm an American and like the .30-06, but let me give a frank assessment of why not more Brit .30-06 rifles in existence built for Africa. The .318 Westley Richards was and is a superior cartridge and the Brits knew it. Why? One historical reason. We did not make a 220-240 grain solid or soft for the .30-06 in its early years. That single reason made the 250gr soft and solid in .318WR a superior option for Africa. Had the heavier bullets come out for .30-06 the Brits wouldn't have made .318 in 1910 and the .30-06 would have been the British and American safari standard of the 20th century. Thus, there were alternatives in Britain dividing the market share that should have belonged to .30-06, namely the longer reach of the .300HH and the more effective moderate range .318WR. In my opinion, bullet weight alone for Africa caused the Brits to innovate with a desire to improve the 150-168gr or even 180gr early .30-06 projectile options. | |||
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I think the 30/06 was very popular in Africa. Leslie Tharlton used one for a lot of lions and called it the best small bore around. Without getting into my books I cannot give hard dates on when 220 grain 30/06 bullets became available, but it was during the Golden Years of Safari. Hemingway used 220 in 1930s. The 30/03 was designed around 220 grain bullet. I bet the 30/06 had 220 loads from the start given the 308. 220 grain bullet had a 3 year head start. Yes, you cannot interchange 06 in an 03, but the bullet was available. I do agree that the 250 grain 33 caliber 318WR was a good step up. | |||
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There is currently a beautiful Cogswell and Harrison 30-06 up for sale in 30-06 on Gunbroker. I think when you see this rifle it will answer any question you might have about a top end classic British rifle in 30-06. | |||
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Context and timeline = all important ! 30-06: Conceived 1903 and introduced as the 30-06 1906 but....... it was a US military cartridge for a military rifle ! The first real indication of sporting use comes when Teddy Roosevelt hunts Africa in 1909. The rifle a sporterized 1903 Springfield This was the kick off ! Seymour Griffin ( G&H) was the outfitter and after the Roosevelt endorsement he starts selling 30-06's in limited number. The first production sporting 06's come from Winchester in their model 1895 Lever action with caliber introduction in 1908 as the "30 Govt 06" WW1 basically introduced the 06 to ordinary men and after the war many wanted it to hunt with. Remington introduces the 30-06 in 1923 in their model 30 Winchester follows in 1925 with their model 1954 Mauser and the 30-06: Just before WW1 Mauser offers the Mauser Special Model A in their model no 1 and 2 offering in 30-06. They designate this was the "US 1906 " and on their factory work charts and orders we see it referred to as the .300 US 1906. What is interesting is that a German national one Hans Tauscher a rifle importer in Manhatten imported the Mauser Model C in 30-06 into the USA. Tauscher who was a officer in the imperial german army would later be accused as a spy. Tauscher also imported Lugers and he had his business in Lower Manhatten on 14th street. at the time there were other foreign nationals operating in Manhatten as importers AH Funke , JL Galef, Jenkins and Abercrombie and Fitch all operated from the area There were also foreign nationals operating in upper Manhatten notably Stoeger, Von Lengerke and Detmold as well as von Frantzius. by the time the 30-06 had taken the US by storm in the 20's most of the big name brands in the UK were offering them in their catalogs. | |||
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ALF, you are amazing! Captdavid "It's not how hard you hit 'em, it's where you hit 'em." The 30-06 will, with the right bullet, successfully take any game animal in North America up to 300yds. Get closer! | |||
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The Cogswell and Harrison to which Steven was referring: http://www.gunbroker.com/item/630634537 I'm thinking the recoil pad needs to be replaced................leather or Silver's? | |||
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Silvers would be age and gun type appropriate  | |||
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ALF: Red, black, or orange? I'm thinking, depending on the actual color of the stock, red if it tends to be a little darker in color, as in some of the photos, orange if it tends to be a little lighter in color, as in some of the other photos. http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/silvers.html | |||
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relics6165 That is one that I cannot give an opinion on other than one has to match it in person to the gun. And I know exactly what you are saying ! I have original Silver's pads on almost all of my old guns that have soft pads some still original and brittle hard as rock ! bought some from Kynamco to exchange but somehow have been procrastinating to do it. | |||
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(sigh) actually, the 30-03 was conceived in about 1898 or so, and the 30-06 was conceived of until the problems with the 30-03 were made to the field opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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1898 or so ? No ! Notes on the development of the 30-06 cartridge: Spanish American War = 1898 American Forces armed with the 30-40 Krag and the 45-70 Both outshot by the German 7x57 rate of fire as well as distance etc. The idea was to produce a more powerful cartridge than the 30-40 Krag for the Krag ? Problem was how to achieve a velocity requirement of 2300 fps. Pressure would be to high for the Krag and it has to match the magazine of the Mauser Prototype rifle of 1900: Mauser like action / magazine otherwise its a Krag with 3o inch barrel Improved Rimmed Krag case with shoulder pushed forward and longer than the Krag. 220 gr bullet RN cupro nickel clad steel bullet single crimping cannelure 2300 fps ( 30 inch barrel) The 2300 fps was a problem and difficult to achieve Initially the Krag 30-40 was designed as a Rimless cartridge in 1892 but headspacing was a issue so we ended up with the Rimmed version of the 30-40 The Rimless M1901: This case is the true forerunner to the 30-06 Case dimension almost that of the 30-06 220 gr service bullet ( 3 cannelured lubricated cupro nickel RN bullet) 2300 fps 30 inch barrel M1903 ball cartridge for the M1903 Rifle 2300 fps (24 inch barrel) 220 gr smooth flat base “sharp pointed” bullet ( actually not sharp but a 1 ½ ogive bullet) The jacket was made thicker in 1905 to avoid jacket stripping Nitro glycerin powder caused barrel erosion ( very hot burning) Big problem ! 1904 reduction in velocity to 2200 fps Various options "special use" cartridges) The 1906 Ball: The 30-06 Development starts in 1904 The catalyst for development is the German FB 154 Spitzer bullet. 2 bullets were developed The No 1 Spitzer and the No 2 Spitzer The bullet adopted was the 30 cal 150 gr FB uncannelured 7 cal radius point cupro nickel jacket New powder = Du pont Pyro = mitigates the erosion problem Date 15 Oct 1906 : Cartridge Ball cal 30 Model of 1906 | |||
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 Really? You think the cart was designed, tested, a NEW rifle model built, and ACCEPTED by the US Military in ONE YEAR?  Forgive my while I laugh myself off my chair I mean seriously, the US MILITARY changing everything in 365 days? oh boy, i'll keep this one quoted for YEARS for a quick laugh But, of course, you don't address the heart of the issue, Doc -- again -
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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The wonderful thing is that we have factory records of what prototype rifles and what rounds were built and accepted complete with dates. With the 30-06 we have the Springfield armoury records of when rifles were built which could handle the various versions of various cartridges. I did not elaborate on the numbers of round loaded of each variant for testing but that too is available in print. Also what powder and when even bullet dimensions and who designed the bullets. The development of each step was closely related what propellant became available and when. First and foremost there was no rifle that could handle a 30-06 in 1898. There was also no propellant ! Now we can pontificate as to time but there seemed to be a definite pressure to produce in a in step with fashion what the Germans were offering ! Each time the Germans took a step the boys at the Frankford Arsenal and Springfield followed and followed at quite a pace to counter ! | |||
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Here in Germany the 3 most popular rounds are 30-06 and 8x57 with the 308 a close third. I am not sure if the 8x57 IS or the 30-06 is more popular. When I go to Frankonia (or any of the small shops), 30-06 is the most common caliber, on both new and used guns. The 7x64 and 270 are popular, but not as much. Austrian's like more esoteric calibers. Other Europeans have similar taste. Of course everyone knows that the 6.5x55 is loved by Scandanavians. I see old 30-06 Mausers, none of them are marked anything other than 30-06 that I have seen. I am not sure about the pre-1930's guns. | |||
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Hey Doc Alfie, please read what i SAID not what you READ The 30-03 (3 aint 6) was conceived ABOUT 1898 --
WOW -- no propellant and no action to handle it? Hmm, what else was readily available in 1898 and was of similar pressure?? 7x57? Nah, it was in production for 6 years by then -- no one in their right mind would EVERY put a high pressure round in a 96 action... oh, wait, you mean there's 10s of thousands of 257 roberts and a ton of 308s on those actions... and even hot loaded 7x7 and 7.65... opps.. hold on, its just a 51k psi load.. 7.65 Argentine? -- yeah, some story... no powered available? opps, 56kpsi in a 30 caliber load? well, dang, and it had been around almost a DECADE before 1898... 1896 mausers? yeah, sure, on the endge oh, WAIT A MINUTE I remember what happened in 1898 -- that little bitty two brother firm released a little known action, certain to be lost to history the MOdel 1898 mauser, along with its 56kpsi loading on the same case head.... Do you think the mauser developments had ANY influence on the development of the 1903 Rifle? I dunno, We had to pay patent royalties due to a lost case saying the springfield infringed on the mauser patents.. Of course, in the late 19th century, the US Military was still against the use of small bore weapons, but that politics, not history. I mean, really, doc, this is a SILLY discussion ... now, go back and delete all your posts on the matter, like you always do opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Where did you see this? I seem to remember something like it in John Taylor's "African Rifles & Cartridges", but I'm not positive. Not trying to start a fight, just genuinely curious. Thanks, Okie John "The 30-06 works. Period." --Finn Aagaard | |||
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Was highly thought of where? In the UK? There is exactly 1 300 H&H rifle for sale on wwutow.guntrader.co.uk right now. There are several hundred 308s, and about 50 30-06 rifles. | |||
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Okie John, I think it might have been in one of Jack O'Connor's 'rifles' books, but I could be wrong. Captdavid "It's not how hard you hit 'em, it's where you hit 'em." The 30-06 will, with the right bullet, successfully take any game animal in North America up to 300yds. Get closer! | |||
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In 1924, Mannlicher-Schoenauer, in Austria, lengthened their 1903-1910 model action to handle longer cartridges, including and especially the .30-06, which they originally called the 7.62x63. This model, which was called the "High Velocity" model, was sold along side the earlier 1903, 1905, 1908 and 1910 models until WWII.  It was and still is a wonderful round for medium to heavy, non-dangerous big game hunting, and has been made and used for such purposes all over the world. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I've read this a number of times as well, along with the point that the voluminous design was meant to house cordite and allow for pressures to not get too high in the African heat. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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One of the finest 30-06's I ever owned was a J.P. Sauer and Sons Mauser. All I have left of it is a picture..They have gotten too expensive to hunt with, so I sold it..Wish I hadn't..It shot better with a receiver sight than most scoped rifles. Sold it to Jack Belk. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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