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In the last discussion about the 270, and the 7MM Mag. There were seveal guys who just had nothing good to say about the 270 Winchester. One comment was too much "blood shot meat", another was it was "way over rated", another, if it wasn't for "Jack O'connor", the 270 would be in the trash heap. I can't understand these attitudes. What's not to like? The 270 Winchester, was the first American factory high performance cartridge. Back in the day it was "spectacular", and even with the advent of so many new Magnum's it keeps up really well, as does the 30-06. For all the paper arguer's, my recent comparrison of the 7mag and 270 out at 500 yds, says it all. Don't hang your hat on the 7mag, cause 220 foot pounds of energy, and 8" less drop, ain't much. Have a Good One! Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | ||
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I am right with you... I own a "big 7", and '06, as well as a few more. When it comes time to go get meat, the .270 is in my hand... It kills way bigger than the bullet, if you know what I mean. | |||
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A 270 Husqvarna has been my go to rifle for everything I have hunted in the USA except bear for 30 years and hasn't failed me yet. The only reason it wasn't used for bear is that the outfitter wanted something bigger. It also took everything I hunted in Germany except red deer stag and again it's because something bigger was directed. I have no doubt that the .270 would have worked very well for the bear and hirsch if it were allowed. "Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult." | |||
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i just picked up a 3 digit m54 win in .270....other than the bolt handle has been butchered and a recoil pad, the rifle is 90%... month or so and i'll have it back from tip burns (he's fixing the bolt handle) and i'll know how it shoots.... go big or go home ........ DSC-- Life Member NRA--Life member DRSS--9.3x74 r Chapuis | |||
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I thought it was "unAmerican" to dislike the 270 Win.! | |||
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i will personly never get one, because the 6,5x55 overshadows it in popularity. and since there is minimum 139gr bullet regulation, i can just as well go for a 7x64 or a .280(of course, i would use a .30-06 with 150-165gr bullets, just to be practical). but if i lived in the US or UK and needed a flat-shooting deer rifle, a .270 would probably be my choice. | |||
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Jack O'Connor admitted to being a baby girl about recoil. He said in print it was as much recoil as lots of folks could tolerate and shoot accurately. Regardless of the actual cartridge, it put you in the sissy category to even admit knowing someone who owned one. That, and the fact that he mostly got guide & outfitters to take him hunting in exchange for free writeups in the magazines he wrote for. They mostly carried a large caliber magnum rifle in case lil jackie made an oops. Nobody, including lil jackie ever told how many of the big game animals he shot were killed by him. Read what he wrote, he talks mostly about shooting things. People in Idaho who knew or knew of him had quite a different opinion of his prowess than Easterners. He was mostly magazine... Rich DRSS | |||
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What I never understood is why we need the 277 bore when we had the 284 (7mm). The 7mm-06 would have made a lot more sense to me. Not that there was anything wrong with the 7x57, but if new and improved was needed 7-06 would be how I would change history if I could go back. I have my 7mm08, so I no longer give it any though. AS for what works, they all work. Dont matter never did. The parent 30-06 is also just fine. | |||
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Do you ever get the feeling someone has been visiting the well?  Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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+1 Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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270 is great. In fact, I like it better than the 30-06. The reason is that it is flatter shooting even with high SDs 150s. If a 270 is questionable it is not as if a 30-06 is going to be a slam dunk. Meaning, if I am concerned that a 270 is big enough than I better really be grabbing a 338 WM or bigger. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Here in SEMO it just flat-out-works!!! And it works for elk to...I know for a fact!!  ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Them's some might fancy words there, pilgrim _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I have my 7mm08, so I no longer give it any though. fourbore; +1.. me too.. if a 270 win. will do it. a 7MM-08 will to | |||
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I have a 270 in a Winchester Featherweight that is just about perfect for the type of hunting I do in Texas. 130gr Speer BTs delivered inside 1/2" at 100yds is all I need. Great old caliber that will be around a long time. Just need a better scope for mine. Free men should not be subjected to permits, paperwork and taxation in order to carry any firearm. NRA Benefactor | |||
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JWP, what part of Idaho you from? I'm a graduate of the Elmer Keith School. "I can't be over gunned, because the animal can't be over dead...". Besides, jack was an ass... Rich DRSS | |||
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what not to like? a fine certridge. thought the 7x64 brenekke was old enough to vote by the time the 270 rolled around . i am not big on nostaglia, but the 7x64 got it all right, the first time opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Now Jeffe the 7x64 was only 8 when the 270 was invented... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Growing up, in eastern Nebraska, most people either used a 270 or a 30-06. Both work ok for deer, the problem comes when a .270 is asked to do something beyond what it should. | |||
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A .270 Winchester in a 22" barreled bolt rifle can be very light and handy and just might be the finest mule deer rifle for mountain hunting one can find! It has light recoil, long range, and plenty of power for mule deer....I can't think of a better cartridge for this task! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Good grief. By my count, this is THREE things that ISS has got right since his return from Africa. There is in fact a pretty good size school of thought on Mr. O'Conner to this effect: fine writer, maybe a less fine guy. He's gone, though. Can we please pick on some gunwriters still writing? Thank you. I herewith return this thread to its rightful owners. | |||
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Tell us more _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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ISS is partially correct about JOC, he was known as "Free hunt O'Connor" in much of the northern BC-Yukon-Alberta country where he "hunted" wild sheep and was not well thought of. Many years ago, as an entry-level "ranger staff" member of the BC Forest Service, I worked with older men, seasonal employees, who had guided, cooked and wrangled on trips where several American gun writers were taken into the BC bush to collect "trophies" and their opinions were enlightening. I was a hardcore JOC fan and tended to scoff at Elmer, but, I was only 18......... JOC, after his stint at OL, wrote for "Peterson's Hunting" and once made a comment about Albertan citizens hunting on a resource extraction road built into the "Smokey River" country he so often wrote of, to the effect that they were, ...slobs in pickup trucks.... Most people I knew then and many I still know, in Alberta, where I worked for the AFS and here in BC, lost any respect for "Cactus Jack" they may have had after that little incident. All, of this notwithstanding, the .270 IS a superb round and it's Remington cousin and German cousin are, as well. Some of the best, most successful BC hunters I have ever known have used a .270 almost exclusively and shot scores of big animals here with one. I have had about a dozen different .270s and it is one of my most favoured rounds and always has been. I might add, that, I tend to be a pretty strong Elmer fan and Bob Hagel fan, as well, however, Frank Keith, a nephew of Elmer's once asked him what hunting rifle to buy and Elmer recommended a P-64 Mod. 70 in, yup, the .270 Winchester! For serious, practical northern and western hunting, especially if one does not handload, I consider a combo of two rifles, a .270Win. and a .338Win. to be the best possible choice and mine would be the last rifles I would part with. With all of that, JOC WAS a VERY good writer and most of his comments about guns and bullets for BC were then and are now "spot on"....and, I do not think that he was much different than many gun writers and was more an introvert than Elmer, so, people tended to think that he was a "dick" in person. I can say, that he was very polite and helpful to a young guy from BC who wrote to him and he did a lot to help American custom riflemakers become what they are today. | |||
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Idaho Sharp Shooter, look in the Speer #8 Manual, you know Speer of Lewiston Idaho, in that book they mention that the 270/150 grain bullet was the favorite of "Idaho's expert elk hunters". As far as Jack O'Oonnor being a dick, I never had the opportunity to meet him, so I guess I have no knowledge. While I tend to lean towards O'Connor's line of thinking, I also like the thinking of Elmer Keith in regards to big guns and heavy bullets. Depends on the job at hand, but for my 2 cents, if it isn't dangerous game, the 270 will take ALL North American game, with power to spare. BTW, that's not to demean the, 7mag,7X64, 7X57, 7-08, what's not to like? Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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I would sure like to hear more about this. It may be 100% true, but it sure sounds like BS to me. Any evidence to back-it-up? BTW, I'm not questioning your integrity, just questioning the validity of the story itself. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Brain Pierce wrote the same thing in one of the Wolfe publications a few years back _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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There was an interview done with Frank Keith and he said that he bought his .270 on Elmer's advice in 1939 and used that rifle for all of his hunting during the rest of his life. Brian Pearce is one source and I think that Ross S. also mentioned this quite some years ago, roughly mid-'90s, or so. I gave away all of my huge collection of gun reference magazines and books, except my loading manuals and a very few others and am recounting this from memory. As, with any human, I am certainly not infallible, but, I recall this as I was rather surprised about it when I first read of it. However, my impression always was that both JOC and EK made far more of an issue about their "feud" and caliber choices in print than in daily life....ya gotta generate "copy" somehow! I have seen enough Elk, Moose and whatnot whacked with NPs in a .270W. to have faith in mine for any hunting I will do and have never felt "undergunned" with my 150NPs at 2900. Even with working alone for years in much of wilderness BC's most densely populated Grizzly country and having a number of close range encounters, I never had to shoot one and as I get into my 60s, I prefer the lighter .270s over my heavier .338s...as rifles DO gain "weight", every year after 40......... | |||
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Mike, you are right .. but its a .284 not a .277 ... and older .. oh, wait, nostalgia doesn't play into my world, does it? but I have never seen 163, 168, ot 170 gr .277 bullet ... my 7x64 saw me through the bad shoulder year.. and its LIGHT! Anyway, I have a 280, and will be making at least 2 more .. 270s? never own one long enough to shoot one, though I've sighted in all my nieces rifles for them. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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The .270 is a great round. As to Elmer & Jack, the funny thing is they both about 100% agreed about the .270. They both said the .270 was a fine deer load, about ideal for open country deer sized game(though Elmer complained about blood shot meat and O'Connor said if you shoot them in the lungs its not a factor) and worked for larger animals with stout bullets & broadside or near broadside presentation. The difference is that Elmer was absolutely infatuated with the "raking shot". In Elmer's terms this shot was driving the bullet from behind, through a full paunch and into the vitals. Both Elmer & Jack said that no expanding bullet in any caliber of the day could be counted on making it, though Elmer felt a big heavy slug would more likely slow the game down enough for a follow up. O'Connor was adamantly against shots on large game from the rear and Elmer based his philosophy on it. The .270 worked for Jack and his style and didn't for Elmer and his style. On another note, Elmer wrote that he didn't think the .338s & larger calibers killed much if any better than smaller calibers on side shots which incidentally is why O'Connor didn't care for the .338 all that much - it didn't kill any better than the .270/06/7x57 he perferred for the type of shots he was will to take so why deal with the recoil/rifle weight. Lou | |||
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I grew up shooting a Ruger M77 in .270. Killed dozens of deer and hogs with it. It always did seem to make a mess of whatever it hit unless it went through the lungs. I wasn't aware of the difference in bullets back then, and shot either Remington or Winchester 140 gr. ammo. I also shot a 30-06, and it didn't anialate the critters like the .270. My guess is any negatives are more due to the bullets than the cartridge. I took antelope and mule deer does last fall in Wyo. The antelope with a 6.5-06, the deer with a 7x57R. Distances were different, but the terminal velocities were very close according to the ballistics. The 6.5 bullet was a Nosler partition, and made a mess of the antelope's lungs. The deer was also lung shot, the bullet was a Norma oryx, and it just puched a hole through her. No hydrostatic effect. Terminal velocities should have been around 2400fps for both. Bailey Bradshaw www.bradshawgunandrifle.com I'm in the gun buildin bidness, and cousin....bidness is a boomin | |||
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The real reason I believe is that we as humans have our prejudices, like & dislikes. I always like classic European & British calibers and some American calibers. The 6.5X55 in a modern action gives a lot more flexibility & less recoil. 125 gr Noslers or 120 gr TSX will do anything that a 130gr bullet in 270 Win will. I can then move to the 139 / 140 gr bullets and achieve 7X57 level performance. I could also go to the 160gr bullets and take Red Stag. The 280 will be my choice if I was hunting longer range up to 300 meters for elk / red stag and 400 meter for smaller deer. My Kimber 7mm08 will almost match a 270 with 120gr TTSX. I have owned a few 270s which I picked up for bargains. But I never hunted with one! I just traded or sold them and bought something I really wanted. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Yep, if Win had just made the 280 instead, then the 270 would likely never have been done. It would have likley been a 6.5 instead. Nothing wrong w/ the round, but all the hype put me off, same for the 06 (all my cousins & uncles had one or the other). So when I went looking for an all-round NA rifle, I went 280. So close to a 7rem mag it's not worth the extra powder IMO. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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It's a fine coyote, pronghorn cartridge. | |||
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I purchased a Winchester Mdl 70 270 back in 1952. I have shot pronghorn, mule deer, elk, and other unwonted critters with that old rifle. Most all my shots were with reloaded ammo. Over the years I have shot a few deer using 22-250 Rem, 243 Win, 257 Roberts, 25-06 Rem, 264 Win, and 308 Norma Mag.rifles jest to see what they would do. Used the 308 Norma Mag and 340 Weatherby rifles on elk. It was fun trying out the different rounds,but the old 270 would have done the job with the hand loaded bullets any game I have taken. | |||
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Demonical: I really like your discription of Alberta being on the Western Border of Canada. I have been up there a couple times, as I have relatives there, Calgary. You guys are like us here in Arizona, we unfortunately border California! Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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I don't think people should be shooting at animals at 500 yards. If I could shoot an XTC match every weekend I would. Seldom is my first shot at 500 or 600 yards in the 6 inch X ring. And these are at ranges where I am familiar with the range mirage and wind, I am using ammunition and rifles with well established zero's. I could check my data books, but I suspect hitting the 12 inch ten ring first shot is the exception rather than the rule. And then, I have shot very few cleans at long range. Just the tiniest puff of wind and that bullet will move out to the eight ring. How do these long range hunters judge their mirage, wind, elevation come ups and windage? I suspect they don’t. Probably just shoot straight on regardless of the gale that is blowing. I have noticed wild shots at long range with a clean barrel. It takes 3 shots minimum before the barrel stops flinging shots in weird locations in unpredictable ways. So when people start talking about cartridge characteristics past 300 yards, yes sure, one may have more drop than another. But can these guys keep their first shot on a pie plate at that distance? (assuming a pie plate is equal to the vital zone of an animal). I suspect not. Which means they are likely to wound the animal and cause a suffering death. | |||
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(This reply is going against my better judgment, but what the hell.) Jeffe, I believe Barnes used to make a 170 gr./.277 bullet up until about 20 years ago. I've never seen one either but have seen them advertised some time back. But hell, I've never seen a 7X64 ammo either except in Cartidges of The World books. Aint ever seen 7X64 ammo that were in reach, at the largest retailer in the world or any place else for that matter that I can recall. I have seen it in order catalogues though. Winchester got it right (also) and made it stick. I saw on a Hornady site two years ago, that the 270 Win. is one of the top three reloading dies still sold. That is why they came out with the 270 WSM which is also successful. Come to think of it just about every cartridge with Winchester's name on it has made the Olin family a lot of money, hasn't it? "The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc.... -----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years------------------- | |||
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Actually we all know that the 270 was the first "major" factory high performance cartridge. The actual first factory high performance cartridge would arguably be the .256 Newton and some would argure for 250-3000 Savage. We know now that the 256 Newton had the shoulder bumped back because no suitable powder would actually support a true 6.5-06 cartridge at the time. The "reason" Winchester went with the 270 caliber was the larger bore diameter was barely suitable (given powders at the time) to support a full sized but necked down 30-06 --- and Winchester did not want to produce the model 54 in the 256 Newton caliber. Actually I agree with you. I have a 270 Win in a pre-64 (1949) Model 70 Winchester. I love it and it shoots very well. I also have a 256 Newton and a 6.5-06. It is really a toss up which caliber I prefer....which probably why I own all three!  Barstooler | |||
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Probably not the 225Win or the 264 Win Mag., although they are both among my favorites. Then there are the WSSM's which did not set the world on fire. | |||
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Olarmy, the key words were "just about". Even their belly flop numbers usually made them some money for a while or in a certain era. "The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc.... -----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years------------------- | |||
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