I've owned a bunch of 06 and 308's. Always liked the .308 a little more.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Now that we know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, I think that for Joe Average Shooter with equally set up 700s, he would be hard pressed to determine which one was more accurate, especially shooting from field positions. And when the Bandit Warriors of Raydon attack your bunker to take your goods and carry off your women, either one would work.

Ohh, com'on! You must be blind? Haven't you ever seen those old WWII docs, where the Americans are shooting at the Japs and you can see the Japs out measuring and calculating the groups in the middle of the firestorm. Then they relay the info to the C.O. who yells out, "It's O.K., they're shooting the 30-06 M1 Guarand and it's not as accurate as the M14 7.62X51 so you can come out of your holes. Then you always have those crafty bucks that have been wounded in the past. These clowns sit around at night with tape measures, rulers and their vet x-rays arguing if the were shot with a .308 or 06 based on the wound path. There always some old buck that claims he was hit with a .300 WM right in the side, but all the other bucks know he's full of sh!+ because they know he actually got shot by grandma Wilson with a .22 when he got caught eating in her garden!

I forgot about that.

The difference is miniscule in the real world and in the hunting fields..

OK, I really didn’t want to wade into the tangent this thread has become, but I have a few unanswered questions still hanging out there concerning the “12 reasons” offered by WhatThe. (Hope I don’t give you more flashbacks to your bachelor party ‘splainin’)

Before I start let me state that I have gone round and round on the topic of inherent accuracy in a cartridge design before, but years ago I drank the Koolaid and accepted the fact that the .308 has inherently more accuracy potential as a cartridge. However, I still feel (as most here apparently do) that the rifle and shooter play a far greater role in actual accuracy achieved under MOST conditions.

Having said that, there are a few points made here that I don’t fully understand. Please do not call me another pinhead. I am not “challenging” or disputing established facts, just trying to seek clarification of some of your statements to help my understanding. And I think that’s what Sam was trying to do as well. That’s what we are all here for after all…

1. Barrel Vibration: First of all, I get that a .479” difference in chamber/bore length can change the harmonics of a barrel and may cause it to vibrate more, but would this necessarily always be in a negative manner? Might it be better to say that the same advantage in uniformity of the powder burn contributes to more consistent harmonics? (consistency/repeatability, after all, is the real key to accuracy.) Is it fair to say that small variations in muzzle velocity will cause the bullet to get slung out the muzzle at different points in the vibration cycle, and that larger oscillations will exacerbate the distribution?

2. Recoil: I got a little confused about whether you were talking about the factors affecting felt recoil or actual recoil. For instance, how do you define “straight” or “level” recoil versus “angular” recoil? The way I interpret these terms is in the context of felt recoil and muzzle flip based on stock design. Are there internal factors generated by uneven powder burn that exert angular forces within the chamber which lead to recoil vectors not actually parallel to the bore? Is that what you were referring to when you talked about the super slow motion recoil and force pattern video you had seen? If every action has an equal and opposite reaction wouldn’t these forces be contained and balance out somehow?

Felt recoil certainly comes in to play when talking about actual performance in the field or shooting various positions in high power competition, but when talking about the effects on inherent accuracy of one cartridge over another or shooting from the bench it shouldn’t matter, should it? The shooter’s grip and weight distribution around the gun also affect felt recoil, but are not part of the recoil equation.

Again, repeatability is the name of the game. If a harder kicking cartridge kicks the same way every time, then the muzzle flip would not vary from shot to shot and accuracy would be good, right? Of course a harder kicking cartridge that causes more muzzle flip would also be more sensitive to other variations such as (internal) velocity.

Speaking of velocity…

I think we all understand that the velocity of a bullet after it leaves the muzzle, (external ballistics) has no effect on recoil. Sam’s point, (if I may paraphrase) is that as the internal force required to accelerate a projectile of a given weight to a greater muzzle velocity increases, so too does the recoil. The math you provided proves this. If recoil force is the product of internal velocity and bullet weight, then the degree of difference in recoil between two comparable cartridges with the same bullet weight would be proportional to the difference in velocity.

Speaking of math, in the recoil formula given, wouldn’t you square velocity? If energy is mass times velocity squared, isn’t the calculation for recoil force just a calculation of energy going in the other direction? What am I missing here?

So, if a 100 FPS difference, (3-4%) in the two cartridges at the same bullet weight is deemed negligible by most people, wouldn’t it be fair to say that the resulting difference in recoil and its practical effect on accuracy is also negligible to the same degree? I’m not saying it doesn’t have an effect, I am just trying to put that effect in perspective.

I do not have an engineering degree or years of professional experience in the field of ballistics as you apparently do, so please don’t hang me on a technicality if my terminology is slightly off. I think you get the gist of what I am saying here, are there any flaws in my logic or errors in my reasoning?

It seems to me that the 12 reasons the .308 is more accurate really boils down to uniform ignition/powder burn x 12, and the cumulative effect of the advantages this quality imparts.

And finally, as it was pointed out earlier, the .308 is shorter but NOT fatter than the 30-06. I get a little tired of seeing this come up time and time again... The base diameter and taper is identical – go measure the 30-06 at the same point where the .308 shoulder is and you will see what I mean.

Again, I’m not intending this post as an attack or attempt to reignite a pissing match, I am merely seeking enlightenment. If you don't have time to spend on more banter I understand, but would appreciate any links to source documents that I can study for myself. Thanks in advance for your consideration to my inquiry.

quote:

"It's O.K., they're shooting the 30-06 M1 Guarand and it's not as accurate as the M14 7.62X51 so you can come out of your holes."

That's just plain incorrect. Surely they be saying: "We'd better come out of our holes NOW before they get around to inventing the vastly superior 7.62x51 AND the M14 to use it in?

quote:

The .308 is inherently more accurate than the 30-06 and has set and broken more records than any cartridge in existence

Could the reason it has broken more records than any other cartridge be that the 30-06 is not allowed in the Palma matches ?

Following observations based on 23 years of NRA XTC HP competition w/5 different '06 rifles and only two .308's. These were all heavy target rifles except for three M1 Garands (one .308, two in 30-06).

If the 308 has any accuracy advantage over the '06, I failed to see it shooting under field conditions. Eventually settled on the '06, and definately never felt handicapped:


(3" spotter disc, shot from prone position, iron sights w/no artificial support.)

As far as felt recoil goes, I can't tell the difference between the two calibers. A friend swears he can tell the difference in recoil between 168 gr. bullets and 180 gr. in his .308, but I sure can't; guess I'm just not recoil sensitive.

I think the 308/30-06 debate, like the Ford/Chevy thing all boils down to choose the one you feel more comfortable with; it really doesn't matter.

Regards,
hm

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:
OK, I really didn’t want to wade into the tangent this thread has become, but I have a few unanswered questions still hanging out there concerning the “12 reasons” offered by WhatThe. (Hope I don’t give you more flashbacks to your bachelor party ‘splainin'

I don't mean to call anyone a pinhead, I share that title alone..Every question is a good question and I don't believe in a bad one. I guess I get a little jerked out of kilter if someone is pulling data out of the air and trying to back it with range lingo. That did not happen here. What did happen is someone asked me to define the accuracy statement I made and perhaps I didn't explain it all in a manner becoming? In any event all your questions are good and in fact, you have come upon some of the same issues where field data was required to determine inconsistencies in the "raw" calculations of a specific solution. You have a lot of questions and I will be happy to answer the ones I know and pull research data on the ones I don't or am unsure of. It is indeed an interesting subject and lots can be learned from the YPG data results and world match shooting events. In any event I will print your questions and get you some data that best fits your questions and re-post here as time allows. Now with that said, there are a lot of 30-06 lovers out there and to challenge it in any way is going to cause heartburn due to it's world wide popularity. To those folks, I share your passion for this cartridge and I have 5 rifles chambered in 30-06 including a custom match built by Ron brooks. I cannot help that the .308 is more accurate nor can I help it that ice melts is warm weather.

quote:

Originally posted by hm1996:

quote:

The .308 is inherently more accurate than the 30-06 and has set and broken more records than any cartridge in existence

Could the reason it has broken more records than any other cartridge be that the 30-06 is not allowed in the Palma matches ?

Never did understand that rule but the 06 is king here (IMO) because there really isn't an iron site rifle (at the time) that could even come close. I'm confident CC Palma was developed for the M1/G? However, and not to ruffle your feathers, in open 1000 yard F class and 3/4/6 relays, the .308 consistently beats the 30-06....

quote:

I will print your questions and get you some data that best fits your questions and re-post here as time allows.

That's more that I expected, and generous of you. Thanks!

It all depends upon ones definition of inherently accurate. I believe that there are better rifles, barrels, bullets, loads, shooters, optics, triggers, etc... that combined all lead to better accuracy. If you have an accurate load in a good rifle the error is most likely going to be human. Misjudging the wind, spin drift, what ever.

The 308 was created for better function in military automatic weapons and small arms were mated to it out of combat ammo efficiency. There are many calibers that offer better flight characteristics over the .308 most notably the 6.5mm so I see no other practical reason to choose the .308 other than the availability of bullets and brass. Even our own military is making the transition to the 6.8 in the sniper arena. Why do you suppose that is? Could it be that it offers better trajectory, accuracy and reduced recoil.

Getting back to the original question. The .308 is not the best choice available today even though there are many fans who will defend its credentials to the death. I suggest you take a long look at the 260 Rem. and other similar cartridges that dominate the target circuits. I think you will be surprised at what you find.

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

quote:

I will print your questions and get you some data that best fits your questions and re-post here as time allows.

That's more that I expected, and generous of you. Thanks!

While I'm still digging, here is some great info for you, unless you have been here before. But if not it's great reading! http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html

quote:

Originally posted by Captain Finlander:
It all depends upon one definition of inherently accurate. I believe that there are better rifles, barrels, bullets, loads, shooters, optics, triggers, etc... that combined all lead to better accuracy. If you have an accurate load in a good rifle the error is most likely going to be human. Misjudging the wind, spin drift, what ever.

The 308 was created for better function in military automatic weapons and small arms were mated to it out of combat ammo efficiency. There are many calibers that offer better flight characteristics over the .308 most notably the 6.5mm so I see no other practical reason to choose the .308 other than the availability of bullets and brass. Even our own military is making the transition to the 6.8 in the sniper arena. Why do you suppose that is? Could it be that it offers better trajectory, accuracy and reduced recoil.

Getting back to the original question. The .308 is not the best choice available today even though there are many fans who will defend its credentials to the death. I suggest you take a long look at the 260 Rem. and other similar cartridges that dominate the target circuits. I think you will be surprised at what you find.

The Ext. ballistics and travel of the 6.0/6.5mm are impressive and are winning more and more. Terry Bradly is unbeatable at 300 yards using his 6BR. However, and not to rain on your parade, you should check the official year ending NRA records and you will soon learn that (over-all) the .308 still dominates. I'm convinced however that the 6BR is going to rule the 3/4/5/6/8 BR/R matches very soon and for a long time. All the test data, range info and match scores still have the larger 6.5 still lagging behind. I don't no why nor am I interested on researching that one. One thing you said is a major factor "the shooter". If an unseasoned shooter is going up against a competitive .308 shooter, the .308 shooter will eat the 6BR for lunch. There is no doubt that in the right hands the 6mm & even the 6.5mm can edge out the .308 but there is no room for even the smallest mistake because the .308 will sneak up on you every time! Very interesting you brought up the 6.8mm. Since you know about it you understand it was/is a joint venture between SOCOM and Remington and was developed to address "DRKE" issues. Built around the.30 Remington case it got it's designation by testing the 6.5 and 7mm bullets. While the 6.5 had better accuracy, the 7mm had better terminal performance. So what did they do? made the 6.8MM SPC (special purpose cartridge). This will undoubtedly replace the 5.56 (.223) M16 round providing greater KnE to the target. You won't see it replacing the 7.62X51.

quote:

Originally posted by Captain Finlander:
It all depends upon one definition of inherently accurate. I believe that there are better rifles, barrels, bullets, loads, shooters, optics, triggers, etc... that combined all lead to better accuracy. If you have an accurate load in a good rifle the error is most likely going to be human. Misjudging the wind, spin drift, what ever.

The 308 was created for better function in military automatic weapons and small arms were mated to it out of combat ammo efficiency. There are many calibers that offer better flight characteristics over the .308 most notably the 6.5mm so I see no other practical reason to choose the .308 other than the availability of bullets and brass. Even our own military is making the transition to the 6.8 in the sniper arena. Why do you suppose that is? Could it be that it offers better trajectory, accuracy and reduced recoil.

Getting back to the original question. The .308 is not the best choice available today even though there are many fans who will defend its credentials to the death. I suggest you take a long look at the 260 Rem. and other similar cartridges that dominate the target circuits. I think you will be surprised at what you find.

6.8SPC used by mil for sniping? I'm a huge 6.8 fan...ownn 3 and waiting on my smith for a bolt gun, and have assembled many for friends.

Not saying BS or anyhting like that, but would love to hear more....Please elaborate.

In the American Rifleman magazines of the 60's there are these 600 round groups at 600 yards (might have been 500 yards) of the NM ammunition issued in the matches.

Both the 308 and 30-06 were being loaded with the 175 FMJBT and both used IMR 4895.

The 308 Winchester shows a tighter cluster.

IMR 4895 leaves an air space in the 30-06, hardly any air space in the 308. I don't know what would happen if the 30-06 was loaded with something like IMR 4350 which can fill the case.

I have a couple of buds who have won several F class National Championships. This Saturday I had lunch with the lady who placed second this year in F Class Tactical. You use the 308 round in tactical. She used 185 Bergers, Lapua small primer brass and RL 15. She mentioned just how much the wind whipped around, big full course corrections. It does not really matter the inherent accuracy of the cartridge if you can't hold, shoot, and gage wind. The wind will blow you out by feet at 1000 yards.

Her husband was trimming the bullet tips of his 6.5 Sierra Match Kings. I asked the lady "does tirmming bullet tips make a difference at 1000 yards?", and she said "at 1000 yards everything makes a difference."

(Hubby shot a 198 standing Saturday, which is outstanding.)

When you are as good as these Cats, then maybe you will see a difference between 308 and 30-06, but it will take wearing out a bunch of barrels.

Now that is really retro. I haven't seen one of those in 20yrs.

I'd bet that for the OP and most shooters, the difference is more theoretical than practical. If you're looking at a "tactical" style heavy barrel, the .308 is your only .30 choice other than the .300 WM in a couple of variants.

quote:

Originally posted by CCH:
I'd bet that for the OP and most shooters, the difference is more theoretical than practical. If you're looking at a "tactical" style heavy barrel, the .308 is your only .30 choice other than the .300 WM in a couple of variants.

Unless you are talking strictly about off the shelf rifles this may be true. However, I have a Shilen heavy select match grade 30-06 barrel on one of my F class rifles. Krieger makes them as well as many others..