For bolt actions, judging purely on quality and craftsmanship, the Mannlicher-Shoenauer surpasses any other rifle by leaps and bounds.

After that I would give the nod to the 1938-55 commercial Brno's, followed by the commercial Mauser sporters (including the Walter Roll guns).

After that you start running into production rifles that are very nice in quality, but fall short on craftsmanship because they use "OSFA" parts to cut costs and speed up the process.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

quote: And one thing I would never call a stock BRNO is refined.

John

I would.

Terry

I would gladly trade you a BRNO of your choice for a Holland & Holland of my choice. Perhaps a Purdy? Vintage Rigby? The BRNO's were great rifles, very functional, strong, but refined, no.

John

There are a lot of things I would trade a BRNO for. The same can be said for all the rifle makers on your last post. It really wasn't a good analogy.

The BRNO ZG and 21H series rifles are high quality, well built and refined rifles, that's why they are So sought after today.

If you don't agree.....well, you're just wrong

Terry

Golly - I've devoted my whole life to owning as many sporting rifles as I could, just to fondle and admire them. Most are now gone, but I still have somewhere well over a hundred.

So, which ones did I really enjoy? Here's some samples of the ones I liked personally: (BTW. at different times I have accumulated/collected Mannlicher Shoenauers, Commercial Mausers, double rifles, and Schultz & Larsens, as well as Winchesters so that tells you something about what I generally enjoy.)

Okay, in no particular ranking...

- Sako Safari-grade rifles...still have one of several I've owned. This one is a .338 Win. Mag.

- Mannlicher Schoenauers, both carbines and rifles...most of mine were finished up by Geo. Gibbs of Birmingham, though my favourite was by Fraser of Edinburgh. Now have only 4 or 5 left.

- Commercial Mausers- Had a nice matched pair finished up by Holland & Holland in .275 H&H. Also had others by Westley Richards (.318 WRs); Dan'l Fraser(9.5x57 & .375/2-1/2" Rimmed); several by John Rigby (.303 Brit, .275, etc.); Jeffery(.280 & .404); Manton & Company 9x57 & 10.75x68; and, a beautiful matched pair of 10.75x68s by Mauser; perhaps half a dozen by Mauser in 9x57, 8x57, and many more. All were nice. Also guess I should include here various Husqvarnas (primarily 9.3x62s, one of which I still have) and Brnos (mainly the various 1950's commercial models such as 21-H, etc.), including ones in .220 Swift, half a dozen in '06, ditto in 7x57; a couple of Jos. Springers in 7x64; etc. There was also a very, very nice oil-finished Browning Safari in .458 Win with line engraving and a ruby set into the bolt handle knob. (Sounds garish, but was a small ruby and actually very tastefully done.)

Most of my English Mausers were in oak & leather travel cases, complete with scopes, clearing rods, spare foresights in elephant ivory screw-lid bottles, and buffalo horn-handled turnscrews.

-S&L- Have had these rifles in .308, 6.5x55, 7x61 S&H, .358 Norma Mag, etc., and still have some in .30-06 and 7mm Rem Mag. All are originals, none rebarreled or anything like that.

Single shots- Francottes in various chamerings from .22 Hornet and .218 Bee up to .450...also a nice Farquharson by Rigby in .450/.400, and a beautifully engraved Dan'l Fraser in .303 Brit. Also had a rather nice 98% condition original Pacific Ballard in .45-70.

Double rifles - Had many, but my favourites for "using" were an extensively deep relief engraved, oak & leather cased German .470 by Simson of Suhl (and, yes, that's Simson, NOT Simpson); a .450/.400 3-1/4" hand detachable box lock by WR; a double-hammer Army-Navy CSL in .450 BP Express with full
Rose & Scroll engraving (which I believe to have been actually made by Purdeys for sale through A&N CSL); and a very nice, light, Jeffery .375 Flanged Magnum; a Tolly double 4-bore (weighed 26+ lbs!); and a WR .577 with only 24" barrels made for use in a Howda.

My favorite Winchesters were all Model 70's. I particularly liked the pre-'64 "Target Model" 70s, and had them in .300 H&H "Bull Gun", .270 Target, .243 "Vaminter", .220 Swift Target with spare, fitted, factory barrel, .30-06 National Match, and numerous other chamberings/target versions. Also had and still have numerous pre-'64 sporters in .264 Win Mag, .358 Win, .300 H&H, .375 H&H, .22 Hornet, .257 Robts., 7x57, .243 Win, .270 Win, and on and on. NONE, again, were rebareled or re-chambered.


BTW, they WERE less expensive in those days. When I had a monthly stipend of over 2,000 pounds Sterling above and beyond living expenses, I was still buying double rifles at auction in England for circa 135 Guineas at the most (a Guinea was 21 Shillings) ...or about $200-$225 U.S per rifle....that was about 1970.

There were many, many more I truly enjoyed, but am having trouble remembering them now. I have tried so hard to live with their passing on and to forget losing them that I now can't really bring myself to think deeply about the ones that are gone.

Great post AC.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Great post AC.

Terry

Thank you, Terry.

Don't know how I left it off my list, but one of my all-time favourites is a South African-made .404 Musgrave which took me 6 years to get on a bespoken order. It has an extremely nice piece of wood on it, though I have no recall what the wood actually is. It is called South African Walnut, but really isn't walnut...is some kind of native SA tree. I knew the name when I ordered it, but as I've gotten a bit older, it won't come to mind on demand. Anyway, this rifle is really meticulously made, feeds as smooth as melting butter, and has a really good trigger.

I use it with monlithic solids (circa 400 grs.) and 55 grains of cordite which I handload myself. The floorplate is engraved with a scrolled banner with my name on it, and there is a sterling "badge" inletted into the bottom of the buttstock with our coat of arms on it. All screw heads are indexed and engraved. It has a Rosewood forend tip and grip cap and an English Silvers classical butt pad, express sights, and a Leupold 2x7. Front sling swivel is on a barrel band, and front sight has an ivory "night" bead which seems about the size of a cantaloupe with a good protective hood for carrying.

It cost me 1,600 Rand (not including scope & mount), back when the exchange rate was 4 Rand to the Dollar.

Interestingly, it is a PUSH feed rifle built on some action I have never seen anywhere else, with a special order Krupp steel barrel. It has NEVER failed to feed or extract flawlessly (has a HUGE Sako-style extractor and a side-swing safety).

I think I might rather have back my matched, cased pair of 10.75x68 commercial Mausers, but only by the very slightest of margins. In fact, given the opportunity, I MIGHT not make the swap depending on the day of the week and my mood that day.

Only bad feature is that it is a tad light for extensive shooting sessions from the bench, weighing just at 8 lbs or so all done. But then, who would ever use it that way?

Best wishes,

AC

Thanks for all the great information!

I have question about a rifle I had seen a year ago. It was maked John Rigby .275 on the top of the reciever. The gun was in about 80% wood and blueing. It had a red old english pad on it. The rifle had express sight maked 200, 300, 400 yards. The rifle had been drilled and tapped for rings and bases. It also had a front barrel band.

Can anyone ball park the value of such a gun today? I know the owner and still may be able to purchase it.

Thanks

ddj

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
There are a lot of things I would trade a BRNO for. The same can be said for all the rifle makers on your last post. It really wasn't a good analogy.

The BRNO ZG and 21H series rifles are high quality, well built and refined rifles, that's why they are So sought after today.

If you don't agree.....well, you're just wrong

Terry

Something tells me I can live with being wrong a lot more than you could. Well enough. Some of aspire to the BRNO 21, some aspire for something else.

John

PS an analogy is a uses one subject matter to illustrate another subject matter. Technically, mine was a rhetorical question. You really didn't need to answer the question as the point was made with the question itself. If your gonna use 10 dollar words, get 'em right.

If we all searched for the same guns they would be alot more expensive!!!!!


ddj

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:

Something tells me I can live with being wrong a lot more than you could. Well enough. Some of aspire to the BRNO 21, some aspire for something else.

John

PS an analogy is a uses one subject matter to illustrate another subject matter. Technically, mine was a rhetorical question. You really didn't need to answer the question as the point was made with the question itself. If your gonna use 10 dollar words, get 'em right.

quote:

PS an analogy is a uses one subject matter to illustrate another subject matter.

And you want to teach me something about the english language

quote:

Something tells me I can live with being wrong a lot more than you could.

Judging from your last two replies I would seriously doubt it.

I put the smiley thing on the other post so you would know I was only teasing you. I guess some folks just don't get it.

Terry

Modern: Savage and CZ
Older, the Husky's/S&W/J.C. Higgens

quote:

Originally posted by trouthunterdj:
Thanks for all the great information!

I have question about a rifle I had seen a year ago. It was maked John Rigby .275 on the top of the reciever. The gun was in about 80% wood and blueing. It had a red old english pad on it. The rifle had express sight maked 200, 300, 400 yards. The rifle had been drilled and tapped for rings and bases. It also had a front barrel band.

Can anyone ball park the value of such a gun today? I know the owner and still may be able to purchase it.

Thanks

ddj

Don't know about "value", but can give some "opines" on price. (There IS a difference!)

First off, a great deal depends on both originality and condition, when it comes to Rigbys. The more it is exactly the same as when it left the London shop, in both originality and condition, the greater the price.

In the very late '60s, early '70s, I was buying Rigby magazine rifles in England for under $100 U.S., unless they were in immaculate original travel cases. Then I'd give $150 or so for one if all the accoutrements were included (scope, mount,turnscrews, spare sight, etc.) and the rifle was in 95% or better condition. And I used to get 2 or 3 of those per month at those prices.

But, clearly, times have changed.

Now even ones in rather wretched condition, with one or two additional holes drilled, perished recoil pad, etc., are going for $2,500 to $3,000 or more. Really nice ones, in their cases, are going for $4,600 and up...sometimes way up, depending on chambering.

The .275s appear to be about the most commonly found for sale, with the .33s, .350s, and .416s being the harder to come by. Neither of the latter are particularly rare, but people don't appear to want to let go of them for much less than your house and first born son.

So, my guess for a really nice, cased, .275 with its original scope (if it had one) would be somehere around $5,000. One with extra holes, 80% condition, and apparently an after-market pad, such as you describe, I'd guess at somewhere between $3,000 and $3,750, IF it had a close to perfect bore.

Of course, that's just judging by the ones I've seen, and may not even be similar to anyone else's recent market experiences.

It's a tough question...kind of like my asking you what my Porsche is worth, without your having seen it, knowing the year it was built, which model it is, and it's working history.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:

Something tells me I can live with being wrong a lot more than you could. Well enough. Some of aspire to the BRNO 21, some aspire for something else.

John

PS an analogy is a uses one subject matter to illustrate another subject matter. Technically, mine was a rhetorical question. You really didn't need to answer the question as the point was made with the question itself. If your gonna use 10 dollar words, get 'em right.

quote:

PS an analogy is a uses one subject matter to illustrate another subject matter.

And you want to teach me something about the english language

quote:

Something tells me I can live with being wrong a lot more than you could.

Judging from your last two replies I would seriously doubt it.

I put the smiley thing on the other post so you would know I was only teasing you. I guess some folks just don't get it.

Terry

Still ranting?

too much.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by trouthunterdj:
I have determined that they don't make things like they used to! The older rifles that I own (FN, pre-64 model 70, Brno 21 and 22) are higher quality compared to new production.

My question is, what are your favorite old rifles? Which rifles are of higher quality and craftmanship in your opinion? I am beginning to notice these beautiful guns and wonder how many times I have passed guns not knowing what they were.

Sorry for the vague question but thanks,

ddj

To me nothing seems finer then pre-WWII Savage Model 1899. 5.6x52R in featherweight take-down pattern would be nice to own.
If I had to pick one classic turnbolt it would have NEWTON ARMS CO. INC. BUFFALO, N.Y. .35 NEWTON stamped on top of the barrel. You can have the rest.