I carry the 458 Lott and have loaded 500gr A-Square Monlithic Solids for dangerous game and they do 2350 FPS. They don't tumble.

It would be prudent, when hunting in a DG areas, to use a rifle/cartridge capable of taking a DG animal. I doubt I would opt for a 308 in ele or buffalo country. A 9.3 or 375 makes a lot of sense, even a 338-06 or 35whelen w/ heavy bullets. If you are intent on taking a 308, then 180grTSX seems the best choice as you will not have time to swapp ammo if surprise charged. Your PH should keep you out of trouble but shite does happen.

Dear Alberta

I passed my PH exames in 1994 and I feel a lot more safe in the bush than in an Italian highway.

I consider the chances of an unprovoked "real" charge quite small. Mock charges do not require you to fire at the charging animal.

I have no doubt that you have fired 308 rifles many thousand times but I have seen enough long bullets to tumble inside tha animals to be quite skeptical on your choice of bullet for a point blank shot.

Are you implying that a 150 grains lathe turned copper FN bullet at 2700 f/s will not reach the brain of an adult elephant? Do you have some data to support this claim?

I am saying, not suggesting, that I consider the .308 an inadequate rifle for surely stopping a Big 5 charge. Certainly it may stop some charges, but it is not what I would carry and rely on for that purpose. I have no idea why you consider the A-frame bullet inadequate, but it is your life, have it your own way.

I am also saying that pure copper bullets tend to bend more easily than do bronze bullets. A bullet which bends cannot be relied upon to track on a straight line through bone as will a bullet which does not bend. So even though a copper bullet may penetrate deeply enough, will it do so as much in a straight line as will a bronze one? I am not convinced it will. That could put one in the awkward situation of having placed the bullet in exactly the right place on the outside of the animal, only to have it NOT fly true through the bone to the brain.

If you feel the copper bullet is as good or better than the bronze, well, have at it.

As for the theory about short bullets going to sleep closer to the muzzle, well I'm not gonna get into that very far with you. What determines a bullet's going to sleep is the barrel twist rate and velocity in respect of the bullet's length...basically, one wants enough twist to stabilize the bullet, but not enough to "over-spin" it, just like a child's top. That can be achieved by fitting either the barrel twist to the bullet, or the bullet to the barrel twist. A 1-10" twist rate with a light bullet is more likely to over-spin the bullet than to put it to sleep immediately. A 1-10" twist rate is just about spot-on (depending on bullet shape) for bullets of 170-190 grains in .308 bores.

Anyway, it appears to me what you are really looking for is agreement with what you have already decided to do. Sorry, but I can't give you that. If you really do hunt where a Big Five charge is possible, then I believe you should carry a big enough gun to deal reliably with that. Although a .308 may do it sometimes, in some particular situations, I would not rely on it unless I had absolutely nothing better available.

So, have fun. I hope it works out okay for you in the cirumstances you meet.

A Barnes X is the best choice given the criteria you have stated.

quote:

but not enough to "over-spin" it

Why would this be a problem with bullets used under 150m?

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

quote:

but not enough to "over-spin" it

Why would this be a problem with bullets used under 150m?

Gerard - He was worried that the bullet would tumble, thus not penetrate as deeply as it otherwise might, and so he wanted to be certain that the bullet would "go to sleep" as close to the muzzle as possible.

I was simply noting that if one wants the bullet to "go to sleep", just like a top, one has to not "overspin" it. Otherwise, it may take a bit of time and therefore a number of yards travel before it really settles down.

Whether or not tumbling would occur is a moot (debatable) point, depending on many other things as well.

I don't think it really matters what bullet you choose for your .308 to stop a charging elephant. Any old bullet will be good enough to put you out of your misery before that jumbo stomps you into a pile of mush!

quote:

Originally posted by CAelknuts:
I don't think it really matters what bullet you choose for your .308 to stop a charging elephant. Any old bullet will be good enough to put you out of your misery before that jumbo stomps you into a pile of mush!

Exactly!!!

Given your criteria, I would choose a 165 gr Barnes TSX. It will work very well for the plains game and have a chance of going deep and straight on a big 5 animal.

Alberta Canuck,
Bear in mind that he will be using turned mono bullets where overspinning does not increase yaw due to overspinning.

All that will happen, if the stability factor is way up as it would be with a 145gr FN, is that both the fast and slow precession cycles will be reduced to a lower level. This will happen closer to the muzzle and the probability of the bullet wagging it's tail on close range impact will be greatly reduced.

There are three experiments I have been involved in regarding the 308 Win and head shots on elephant. I was asked for a round nosed solid to be used for culling elephant from a helicopter with 308 semi auto rifles. The bullet was so-so but failures occurred. We made an FN style bullet at 145gr and it worked well with no failures recorded. Working on the assumption that more of a good thing will be better, we then tried a 180gr FN and were back to the occasional failure. Reverting to the 145gr FN style bullet restored terminal reliability again. The shots were taken from a variety of angles from above the elephant so the comparison to frontal brain shots cannot be made. What does hold water is the fact that, from a 1:10" twist in a .30 caliber, the 145gr FN went deeper and straighter than a mono RN or a 180gr FN.

We have one frontal brain shot on record with a 160gr HV with a 300 Win Mag. The shot was successful and the recovered bullet weighed 134gr. The muzzle velocity of the ammunition was 3300fps and the shot was taken from 15m on a charging bull elephant. The PH who took the shot (in self defence) no doubt threw his pants and underrods away afterwards.

I would load some Swift A Frame 180 gr., or maybe a Speer Grand Slam 180 gr, or the Barnes TSX. Loaded fairly zippy, and sighted at 25 yds, 50 yds, 75 yds, and 100 yds. I want to know how stable these bullets are leaving the muzzle, and to know where my sights are best suited for a bad situation. Probably dead on at 75 yds. for me.

Good luck sounds like a great hunt!

Gerard-

I won't try to argue with your experiments/experience. I still would prefer not to use a copper bullet. I personally am partial to bronze for monometal bullets.

Copper MAY never bend, and if it doesn't MAY never fail. But, were it me, I would prefer the same design of bullet (whatever might be chosen) in bronze.

I take that on the recommendation of a fellow who shot over 1,500 elephant, mostly in bushy terrain.

Obviously, he could be wrong, as can we all, but it's kind of like ice cream...some like Vanilla, others Strawberry (I like Maple). Can you believe that the wife of U.S. President Madison reportedly preferred OYSTER?!!


In the same vein, I can't see using a .308 when I have no trouble carrying a .400....but then, I guess that's Maple-Nut. Still, then, for a possible charging Big 5 which will likely be very close on when first noticed I hope to not be playing the lottery. I want the race results to be fixed in my favour in advance.

Best wishes,

AC

Dear Alberta

if I will ever decide to hunt elephants (that is unlikely because i dislike elephant meat) I will use my 458 Lott.

To hunt game, from impala to kudu, in bushy terrain I think that a bronze bullet will be a poor choice.

A bronze bullet may be also a less than ideal to stop lions and leopards attacks.

My question is about the more suitable bullet for hunting at close distance medium sized game, that could still be used in emergency to shoot leopard, lion, buffalo and elephant at less than five yards.

It is a very specific question. The hunting is real, the possibility of a charge by one of the big five just a mere eventuality.

I've been hunting in this area for many years with a 9.3 x 62 and I was never forced to shoot an animal in self defence.

In addition, during the last 30 years in South Africa, I talked with many professional hunters and the stories of un-provoked real charges are very rare.

I consider flat nosed bullets less prone to be deflected by grass and foliage, that is the main problem in this area.

I also consider short bullets more capable to provide on-line penetration, that is essential in a defensive situation.

I never heard of copper bullets "failures", particularly at at 308 velocities, and I consider a positive feature the possibility of some bullet deformation, in order to increase the wound channel and move forward the centre of gravity.

Unless you bring some facts to support your suggestions, I think that the choice will be between a lighter/faster copper FN bullet (more suitable for hunting) and a heavier/slower copper FN bullet (more suitable for penetration).

In my opinion, at this point in time, the best compromise will be the lighter copper FN bullet that will be capable to equate the penetration of a 458 solid bullet at 2.000 f/s.

I heard of a device called "water buffalo" that can be used to run a comparative test.

Is there any one that can tell me more about it?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andrea Sandri-Boriani:

To hunt game, from impala to kudu, in bushy terrain I think that a bronze bullet will be a poor choice.

QUOTE]


Generally speaking I agree, but I also feel that what you are asking for is unreasonable.

You CAN make high PG shoulder shot kills with pretty good though not unfailing certainty with small bore homogeneous bronze bullets. I am not at all certain you can make reliable emergency defensive kill shots on the bigger "Big 5" DG animals with pure copper small bore ones.

Anyway, I still think you are asking for moral support for something you have already decided to do.

You may get it from some, but you won't from me.

Dear Alberta

more elephants have been killed in Africa with the 303 British (just a rimmed 308 Win.) that by all other calibres put together.

Elephants here are still poached with the 7.62x39 Russian (less powerful than the 30-30) and even with the .22 LR.

You will then forgive me if I do not take your advice too seriously.

I learned by experience that it is not so much the bullet that matter but where it is placed.

When I was still living in the Cape I hunted elands with a 9,5x57 but once I killed one (wounded but still standing) with a single brain shot from a 32 caliber Astra revolver with a 2" barrel.

The hunters had run out of ammunitions for their hi-power rifles and my pocket gun was the only one available to do the job, so I used it.

So far you gave me your strong opinion against copper bullets, but yet no facts to support it.

Do you have any solid information on 308 Win. FN copper bullets failing to reach the same penetration of 458 solids at 2000 f/s?

Andrea

I have eaten the meat for several different elephants, some cows some bulls.

I thought it was pretty good.
I liked it.

Let me add that some of it was "cooked" right on to of the coals, ie no "pot", with the locals.

Andrea-

Elephant have been killed with just about everything, including snares, assagais, poisoned arrows, and on and on. I wouldn't want to rely on any one of them to stop a charge either.

What I thought you were initially asking about was a .308 bullet which would not only kill plains game well, but would reliably enable you to stop a charging elephant or buffalo when you did not have a choice of shots but absolutely had to stop it right now at perhaps very close range in the bush...and that while the critter is very high on adrenaline and mad as hell at you.

My response is that there likely is no such .308 bullet, regardless whether you wish to believe that or not.

Though I do not give evidence of failures of copper bullets to penetrate, neither do you give evidence of why bronze bullets would not be able to do as well as any copper bullet of the same shape/size, with less chance of failure due to potential bending. And the one failure could cost you dearly.

So, as you have your mind made up, and have apparently changed the terms of the question to where we are now to believe that there is almost no such chance of any encounter with a charging Big 5 animal, and thereby the copper bullet will do fine for your use, I will simply depart this apparently pointless debate.

I hope you do well with your copper bullets. But if you do not, it won't be because my advice failed you.

Good luck.

hi
i don't know if this loading can penetrate an elefant skul , but it penetrate as good as a solid and kills like a soft point . a 165 or 180 grain winchester fail-safe. once i tried a lot of different ammo in my 3006 on both dry and soaked papper and nosler 180 grain gave deepest penetration about 60 cm until i tried factory loaded 180 grain fail - safe i could never recover a bullet . it had gone trough nearly 100 cm papper and was lost in the wood behind .
regards
yes