I want to hunt warthog, impala, wildebeest and kudu using an open sights, 18" barrel, 308 Win rifle with 1:10 twist.

In my hunting area I may occasionally encounter elephant, buffalo and cats.

I was never been forced to shoot a charging animal in the past but it may happen in the future and I want the best I can squeeze out a 308 Win.

I also own a 270, a 7mm RM, a 9,3X62 and a 458 Lott and in some case the tracker will carry the 458.

Which bullet will be the more suitable for hunting the above mentioned game, keeping in mind the desirability of reaching the brain of elephant and buffalo with a frontal shot or stopping a charging cat by inflicting the more severe possible trauma compatible with the use of a light caliber as the 308 Win?

The average shooting distance for hunting will
about 80 yards and the maximum will be 150.

The maximum distance for shooting a charging animal will be 5 yards.

I'm not going to hunt elephant or buffalo with the 308. I'm only looking for the best hunting bullet that can also provide some degree of protection at a very short distance.

The maximum penetration required is therefore just enough to reach the brain of elephant/buffalo at 5 yards distance, no more.

Once secured adequate on line penetration the ideal hunting bullet need also to be capable of inflicting maximum damage to a charging lion/leopard, also at a maximum distance of five yards.

Naturally it must also be good for warthog, inpala, wildebeest and kudu up to 150 yards.

Actually, in my very specific case, will be more suitable to use a light/faster bullet like Gerard's HV or an heavy/slower premium bullet like A-Frame?

I witnessed an impala, shot at 30 yards on the shoulder with a 300 Weatherby Magnum, charging the hunter and almost reaching him as the charge was stopped by a nek shot at less than 5 yards.

The first bullet had totally vaporized on impact, leaving only a flesh wound.

It is for this reason that I'm insisting on the fact that the chosen bullet must be effective when used at very short distances, below 5 yards, on thick skinned animals.

Have used a 9,3x62 for all of the species you mention ... near Phalaborwa in fact. It was loaded with the 286 gr Nosler Partition at 2425 fps.

There are some quite good local bullets available at the gun shop there that I'd try. Can't remember the maker's name at the moment (as they are not available where I live).

My wife used a 308 for her plainsgame in Zimbabwe.

I shot a couple of animals with it as well.

We used 2 different bullets both Federal factory loads.
The 165 Trophy Bonded Bearclaw, and the 180gr Barnes MRX.

If I had to shoot an elephant off of me with an expanding bullet in a 308 I think one of the Barnes X bullets would be the best bet.

A lot of elephants have been culled with 308 military ball ammo.

If you could carry some heavy match ammo in a pocket that would be best. If that is not an option 180gr TSX

While I don't like your plan, to amswer your question...I would go with the 200 grn TSX.

Most of your shots are going to be inside of 200 yards so the lower velocity is not an issue and the lower velocity is likely to get you better penetration because it will not open as fast and of course the SD is higher

I seem to recall most of the poachers in East Africa are partial to the 308, so I am sure it can be up to the task, but I believe side brain shots are the rule. Frontal may be more of an issue. I think any expanding bullet will fall apart on the front of a Jumbos head.

As a thought exercise, any gain you get for your elephant shot will most likely be detrimental for your plains game shot. My advice is to load up for plains game, have your gun bearer carry your PG rifle and you cary your 458 lott if you are worried about heavies. You have much more time to switch rifles on a PG stalk than when something is coming at you intending on stomping you flat.

The 9.3x62 would be possibility for a 1 rifle carry, but you would have to walk around with solids, then load an expander in the chamber when setting up for DG.

John

180gr TSX Barnes for the 308. And what Big Bore said, carry the Lott.

To all

I have no intention to hunt DG with a 308 Win and a side brain shot to a charging elephant is tricky.

I know that a 458 WM solid at 2.000 f/s can reach the brain of an elephant on a frontal shot. Is there any 308 looad with an expanding bullet that can duplicate the same penetration?

Can a bullet like the Barnes X or GS HV, shot at point blank range at the maximum possible velocity (compatible with a short barreled 308 WM) lose its petals and penetrate enough to reach the brain of an elephant?

In my mind, if I will have enough time to swich rifles or to chamber a different round, I will be most probably able to avoid the confrontation by taking evasive action.

What I'm considering at the moment is the risk of a sudden, unprovoked attak by an animal that have been possibly wounded in a fight or by hunters. It did happened in the past and may happen again, hopefully not to me.

In this scenario it will be only possible to discharge the round already in the chamber, that therefore must be also suitable for hunting kudu sized game at longer distances.

At the moment I'm convinced that bullets that have a solid shank and an expanding tip are representing the best compromise but I'm still undecided about the most suitable of them.

I do not think that in this case premium bullets A-Frame type will be useful on elephants but I may be wrong.

To conclude, the objective of this thread is to identify the bullet/load combination that will perform better in a short barreled 308 Win for bush hunting non dangerous game up to 150 yard and for possibly stopping charging DG (elphant, buffalo + cats) at spitting distance.

It is not a theoretical question. The licence for re-barreling the gun has been granted and I got hunting clients coming in the first week of August. The general idea is to try the load on wildebeest first and possibly eland.

The gun is built on a K98 action and can accommodate cartridges slightly longer than a 30-06. Consequently I can use flat base bullets almost of any lenght. Any suggestion?

Since you plan primarily to back your clients why not use the 180 gr GS Custom FN solid for everything? Otherwise, how about a magazine full of 200 grain Nosler Partitions (fast opening and deep penetrating) and a 220 gr solid in the chamber? You can remove the solid when time permits and when it doesn't take a high shoulder shot on non-dangerous game. It's not a perfect solution but you're making some pretty serious compromises.

Hi nordseta

most definitively I will have GS Custom FN in the magazine! I always use a soft only as the chambered cartridge. A solid is less affected by recoil while in the magazine, do less meat damage if you have to finish a wounded animal and provide much better penetration if you have to shoot a wounded animal running away.

I have not much confidence on Nosler Partition (for my experience the A-Frame are much better)and I do not think both will provide the same penetration of a solid shank bullet.

One big advantage of GS Custom FN, beside penetration, is that apparently is able punch his way trough foliage and it is not so easily deflected as pointed bullets. This has been my experience with the 458.

Probably the ideal bullet in my case will be a FN bullet realized in 24 carats gold, that will deform just enough to maximize the damage, without reducing its mass and still providing deep in line penetration.

Unfortunately it will be too expensive for my finances but ... what about silver?

quote:

Originally posted by Andrea Sandri-Boriani:
Hi nordseta

most definitively I will have GS Custom FN in the magazine! I always use a soft only as the chambered cartridge. A solid is less affected by recoil while in the magazine, do less meat damage if you have to finish a wounded animal and provide much better penetration if you have to shoot a wounded animal running away.

I have not much confidence on Nosler Partition (for my experience the A-Frame are much better)and I do not think both will provide the same penetration of a solid shank bullet.

One big advantage of GS Custom FN, beside penetration, is that apparently is able punch his way trough foliage and it is not so easily deflected as pointed bullets. This has been my experience with the 458.

Probably the ideal bullet in my case will be a FN bullet realized in 24 carats gold, that will deform just enough to maximize the damage, without reducing its mass and still providing deep in line penetration.

Unfortunately it will be too expensive for my finances but ... what about silver?

Probably illegal in SA, but a tungsten core FMJ (armor piercing) would do the trick, but it would be a dicey shot and wouldn't likely be instantaneous. You're asking a 180 gr 30 cal bullet with a sectional density below 290 to do the work of a 500 gr 45 cal bullet with a sectional density of .350 or so. That would be like asking your wife to look like Mariah Carey (assuming she doesn't). In either scenario, you're begging for trouble.

I am not sure what you are looking for exactly, assuming you are a PH backing up clients, the lott would make the most sense, 500 gr solids will anchor any plains game, buffalo, lion, elephant, or any critter trying to stomp your client into a familial lawsuit. The 308 is a great caliber, its just not a stopper in any sense of the word. And mostly a moot point, as your client will be the one shooting at plains game, they will have an appropriate rifle or will borrow the 308 while you carry the stopping rifle and shoot only when necessary. As for foliage, any bullet will deflect, and the lighter and faster it goes, the more likely it will do so.

As for metallurgy, 24K gold is about as soft as lead, it would deform the same as unalloyed lead, which is a lot (this will save you from an expensive mistake). Silver would resist deformation; however, a pure silver bullet wouldn't weigh much and would most likely be paper patched or Saboted to prevent the destruction of the rifling.

You'll need a roundnose solid in 220-grain weight loaded with 48 or so grains of Norma MRP to a mv of 2250-2300 fps for elephant. W.D.M. Bell said that this load would be the ideal load for pachys. Such a load would outperform the 7X57mm with 175-grain solids. A Nosler Partition of 180 grains will do for the thin-skinned stuff.

To avoid misunderstandings:

I'm planning to use the 308 only when hunting meat for myself.

In the bush it will be just me and the tracker carrying my 458 Lott.

I'm looking for the opportunity of spending more time in the bush.

Hunting with a light caliber and without a scope will reduce the number of opportunities, so it will increase the total time that I will spend hunting in the bush.

I do not pay daily fees and I will hunt within an hour drive from my house. So my hunting it is relatively cheap but I cannot afford to shoot game every day, unless culling is needed.

When there are paying clients around, a young PH will take care of the hunting and I will do the cooking!

I know that elephants were easily killed with the 6.5 mm Carcano Mod 91 and any 308 solid (if will not tumble) will do the job.

The problem is that I want to hunt game up to kudu size with the same bullet (+ possibly stopping a charging cat) so penetration alone is not enough.

My hope is to find an expanding bullet that, at point blank range, will still be capable to reach the brain of an elephant with a frontal shot.

At this moment a solid shank bullet with an expanding tip appears to be the most promising route.

Still I do not have a clear idea about the ideal bullet weight and appropriate velocity to obtain normal expansion on thin skinned animals at normal hunting distances and at the same time (by shredding off the petals) to provide maximum on line penetration on thik skinned animals at point blank distances.

Thanks to everyone that have been helping me so far in this project.

I would guess stopping the charge is less likely than an important second shot on PG. For that reason I wouldn't put solids in the magazine and a soft in the chamber. I'd keep it super simple and go with Barnes 180gr. TTSX. Effective on PG but great penetration.

My next choice would be the 165 gr. TTSX.

Too heavy a bullet eats up case capacity in a .308.

quote:

Originally posted by Andrea Sandri-Boriani:
To avoid misunderstandings:

I'm planning to use the 308 only when hunting meat for myself.

In the bush it will be just me and the tracker carrying my 458 Lott.

I'm looking for the opportunity of spending more time in the bush.

Hunting with a light caliber and without a scope will reduce the number of opportunities, so it will increase the total time that I will spend hunting in the bush.

I do not pay daily fees and I will hunt within an hour drive from my house. So my hunting it is relatively cheap but I cannot afford to shoot game every day, unless culling is needed.

When there are paying clients around, a young PH will take care of the hunting and I will do the cooking!

I know that elephants were easily killed with the 6.5 mm Carcano Mod 91 and any 308 solid (if will not tumble) will do the job.

The problem is that I want to hunt game up to kudu size with the same bullet (+ possibly stopping a charging cat) so penetration alone is not enough.

My hope is to find an expanding bullet that, at point blank range, will still be capable to reach the brain of an elephant with a frontal shot.

At this moment a solid shank bullet with an expanding tip appears to be the most promising route.

Still I do not have a clear idea about the ideal bullet weight and appropriate velocity to obtain normal expansion on thin skinned animals at normal hunting distances and at the same time (by shredding off the petals) to provide maximum on line penetration on thik skinned animals at point blank distances.

Thanks to everyone that have been helping me so far in this project.

Makes a bit more sense now, if it were me, and I were worried about game, a 375H&H (or 9.3x62) would be good for all around hunting with the capability of fending off the ill tempered pachy. First up the pipe would be a 300 (or286) solid followed by lighter expanders. I would also be sure to have 10 solids on the belt as well. I know you guys have tougher firearms restrictions now than in the past, but would it be possible to trade your rifle on something with a bit more pop? I may be paranoid, but I wouldn't want to gamble my life on stopping Mr Stompers with a .308, they are tough enough to stop with a 375.

John

While the new expadnding monometals by Barnes,GS, etc

and the older expandinging partitioned types, Nosler, Swift,etc

If I have to carry a .308--

I prefer a

"A Solid Suggestion--"

GS
308145FN006
308180FN021

Barnes used to have a FN solid that I used (#30816) though I believe it is Discontinued but I was told Huntingtons has some left.

There are other custom solids out there also.

As you mentioned the 6.5 will kill, as we know, those were 160 gr solids.

AK's and FN's firing FMJ military ball have also done the job.

As much as I like the Swift A frames and to some degree the monometal expanding bullets.

I want a solid in a .308 Winchester where you will be.

If its got to be a "soft" I guess a Swift, an HV or an TSX/MRX would have to do.

To DuggaBoye

most certainly I will carry FN solids in the magazine. Regarding the cartridge in the chamber, will a 145 grains FN at the maximum velocity penetrate an elephant skull? What effect can be expected on cats?

If the FN is the best choice for DG, I can probably hunt with the same bullet, as 90% of my shots are in the lungs/hart area and 10% are frontal neck shots. In addition, I hunt for the meat and a FN is doing very limited damages in comparison to expanding bullets.

I have all the time I want and I can afford to pass on a shot that is too risky.

The BIG advantage of FN bullets when hunting in the bush is that are less prone to be deflected by foliage and in my area this is the most serious problem.

With regard of streight on line penetration I think the shorter bullet will do better than the longer one, provided that will penetrate enough. Any meaningful comparative penetration test available against 458 solids?

To Big Bore Boar Hunter

To hunt with a light caliber is my choice, it is not due to current legislation. I also own a 270, a 7mm RM, a 9.3x62 and a 458 Lott.

When I was living in the Cape the most of my hunting was done with the 270 and occasionally with the 7 mm RM (a Ruger N°1). Since a moved to Phalaborwa 11 years ago, all my hunting have been done with the 9.3x62.

The 308 have been not fired in years and it is now time to find some use for it or giving it away.

Probably because I'm Italian, I like "moschetto" type guns, light and easy to carry in the bush. Even my 458 Lott have an 18" and 1/2 barrel and shoot quite well. It just kicks!

On the 308 I will have installed the rear sight much forward than usual and I want to use a bright fiber-optic front sight.

The general idea is to build a gun very fast in action for close range work. It will force me to stalk better.

It is my intention to use a scope for load development only as the stock of the 308 is an original pre-World War II civilian Mauser, designed for open sights shooting.

The day I will decide that I want to hunt with a scoped gun ... I will use the 9.3!

I'm quite aware that a 308 is not the most suitable caliber for DGs but I've been living an adventurous life and I like to keep it that way.

Still I want to load the best possible bullet with the full confidence that, if placed correctly, it will do the job. Thanks to all for the good advices

I didn't know there was any possibility of encountering lion, leopard, buffalo, or elephant in Limpopo province, let alone getting attacked by one.

If i were in your shoes a 338 would be a much better choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Andrea Sandri-Boriani:

I'm quite aware that a 308 is not the most suitable caliber for DGs but I've been living an adventurous life and I like to keep it that way.

Still I want to load the best possible bullet with the full confidence that, if placed correctly, it will do the job. Thanks to all for the good advices

Col John Patterson used a .303 to hunt lions, just had to use a Martini double to finish the job is all. Keep us posted on your adventures! I envy those that have nothing but time to hunt.

John

Andrea this works on buffalo but have not tried it on elephant
http://www.brenneke-munition.de/cms/tug.html?&L=1
http://www.rws-munition.de/en/...jectile.htm?navid=20

Cheers

If you plan on a soft in the chamber followed by flat-nosed solids, I would vote for the North Fork 200 grain for the soft. It has the shortest leaded portion of any of the copper solids and the expanded diameter is slightly limited compared to Partitions, Swifts and the like. I think the long remaining shank penetrates better as a result. I also like GS Custom's HV for very fast/light bullet loads and Barnes too, but I find North Forks so forgiving when reloading for accuracy that I gravitate toward them for medium capacity cases where "fast" is not an option.

In an 18" barrel you should be able to achieve 2400 fps or higher which also gives you a reasonable trajectory for longer shots. Not great, but reasonable. It also comes in 180 grains but you will trade a lot of momentum for a small gain in velocity. From how you decribe your hunting goal for this trip, long range isn't an issue?

?

quote:

I didn't know there was any possibility of encountering lion, leopard, buffalo, or elephant in Limpopo province, let alone getting attacked by one.

Indy

Are you trying to be funny? Phalaborwa is a big five town and lions even eated a poor man on the parking lot of our supermarket. But is was during the night and the supermarket was closed

quote:

If i were in your shoes a 338 would be a much better choice.

I hate the 338 and in the bush a 9.3x62 is a far superior caliber. I own one and I've been hunting with it for the last 11 years. Now I want to try something more challanging

quote:

Col John Patterson used a .303 to hunt lions, just had to use a Martini double to finish the job is all. Keep us posted on your adventures! I envy those that have nothing but time to hunt.

John

Col Patterson was using military ammunitions!

I'm not retired yet and my time is scarce. The advantage is that I can be hunting in the morning and be back for lunch.

Then I can work at night, when most people watch TV.

quote:

Andrea this works on buffalo but have not tried it on elephant

I saw a TUG 9.3x62 failing on eland at short range!

quote:

I would vote for the North Fork 200 grain for the soft.

It is a bullet that I had considered.

What it is worrying me is that, at the shortest distances, the long bullet will be not yet "gone to sleep" and will tumble on impact.

In my mind, at this precise moment, the best bullet to have in the chamber will be a light "cup point" solid.

On a 1:10 twist it will (over)stabilize wery quickly, will not over expand and, being short, it should secure the best chance of adequate on line penetration.

Still be suitable for hunting impala and kudu up to 150 yards (providing a reasonable trajectory) and will have the best possible shape to prevent foliage deflection.

I must admit that, since I started researching on this topic I was forced to change my opinions a few times, and I consider it very positively

quote:

I understand exactly what you are asking for and why, we are located not to far from you, some 70km by road but a the crow flies on a clear evening I can see Phalaborwa's lights. We are just South of the river !

Alf,

so I'm not the only one that like short barreled rifles!

My 458 Lott is also getting to heavy to carry and to shoot.

My plan is to fill the stock with mercury and lead weight until is shootable again without pain and ... have the tracker to carry it!

Do you consider me insane?

quote:

Originally posted by Andrea Sandri-Boriani:

quote:

If i were in your shoes a 338 would be a much better choice.

I hate the 338 and in the bush a 9.3x62 is a far superior caliber. I own one and I've been hunting with it for the last 11 years. Now I want to try something more challanging

ouch!!!!!!!!!

If you are willing to put a soft in the barrel, and maybe one ing the chamber, and solids in the rest of the magazine, then get some Barnes 180gr RN Solids.

If you have time, you could always shuck a Soft or two out of the gun, and use the Solids to stop the charge.

quote:

If you are willing to put a soft in the barrel, and maybe one ing the chamber, and solids in the rest of the magazine, then get some Barnes 180gr RN Solids.

From my experience, if you have the time to chamber a different round, you have enough time to avoid confrontation by taking evasive action.

Therefore the bullet that I will use for hunting in big 5 territory must also be the best bullet to face an elephant, a buffalo or a cat at less than 5 yards distance.

In this scenario long bullets are a not a good choice, because they will hit the target before being properly stabilized and most likely they will tumble on impact, having you killed.

Probably the "safest" combination for both hunting and protection will be a light FN bullet late turned soft copper bullet of about 130 grains, pushed at a speed close to 3.000 f/s.

Here is my logic:

It will not be easily deflected by foliage because of the blunt shape

It will have a flat trajectory up to 100 yards

It will expand slightly on impact increasing the wound channel

It will normally exit the game, causing an external hemorrage

It will not waste too much meat (I hunt for the pot)

It will be well overstabilized in a 1:10 twist, "going to sleep" earlier

Being short and (once deformed) top heavy, it will be less prone to tumble

It should be able to reach the brain of an elephant at point blanc distance and still be effective on game like wildebeest and kudu at 100 yards

Those are the conclusions that I reached so far, based on all contributions to this topic. Is there any one of the members that has conducted hunting/penetration tests with such (or similar) combination?

quote:

My hope is to find an expanding bullet that, at point blank range, will still be capable to reach the brain of an elephant with a frontal shot.

I would not trust any expanding .308 bullet to do this. One of the various Brnes "X" types might, though.

I don't have much of a dof in this fight but i have done some experimenting with 220 gr. bullets in the .308 Win. data is undestandibly scare as many of the "egg-spurts" in the gun ragg keep parroting that old line of BS that a 220 gr. bullet takes up too much space so velocity will be too slow. Too slow what for I have to ask?
I shot the 220 gr. Sierra round nose bullets from two rifles in .308 Win. with decent velocity and darn good accuracy using Winchester's W-760 powder. From a 22" barreld Winchester with a 1 in 12" factroy twist barrel, velocity was 2310 FPS and accuracy was excellent. (.375" to .50" at 100 yards.)
From the 18.5" barrel of a Ruger RSI (International) with 1 in 10" twist, velocity was in the 2250 FPS range, kind of like a super 30-30 on steroids, if you will.
I found the data in an older ONE BOOK/ONE LOAD for the .308. Seems like the later versions have dropped data for 220 gr. bullets.
I would image that if you can find a load using a 220 gr. soft and 220 gr. solid using W-760 for your .308, that this could be what you're looking for.
I know that Hornady used to make a 220 gr. solid and paired with their soft nose 220 gr. bullet might be the easiest way to go. I just don't know if Hornady still makes that solid as it's not shown in their latest manual.
Paul B.

quote:

From the 18.5" barrel of a Ruger RSI (International) with 1 in 10" twist, velocity was in the 2250 FPS range, kind of like a super 30-30 on steroids, if you will.

Hi Paul,

Can you fire 5 rounds of this load from about 2 yards distance on a paper target placed on a piece of plywood and let me know the results?

If you will find no signs of keyholing please let me know, as an heavy bullet at reduced speed was my original choice for protection.

If you can also place some additional paper target, spaced few inches apart, just behind the first target we can also obtain some indications about bullet behaviour.

Your rifle is identical in caliber and twist to the one I'm building and my barrel is only 1/5" shorter.

Any load combination that works in your gun shoud also work in mine.

quote:

experimenting with 220 gr. bullets in the .308 Win. data is undestandibly scare as many of the "egg-spurts" in the gun ragg keep parroting that old line of BS that a 220 gr. bullet takes up too much space so velocity will be too slow. To

True! The 220 from a 308 is just as fast if not faster than from the old 30/40 Krag, which harvested many large critters, including the largest of bears.

I used to use 48 grains of MRP with 220-grain bullets to get 2300 FPS from the 308 with a 22", 1/12" twist barrel. It was quite accurate as well. Killed deer like a sledge hammer.

Do not put yourself in a position to have to shoot an elephant or cape buff with a 308. Simple.

I don't really think a .308 is adequate for the use you propose.

The questions are several:

1. Do you want to stop the charging Ele, or just to kill it? The two are not even close to being the same thing. Stopping an elephant if you miss the brain, (which is quite possible in the unplanned cirmcumstances of a true charge) requires something which will stun the elephant instantly, no? That's probably not a .308 with ANY bullet. Most likely some bullet both bigger in diameter and much heavier will be required, I suspect.

2. Bullet shape will also likely be important. Pointed .308 bullets tend to veer considerably when you least want them to on impact with heavy bone masses. If I was going to risk my life on a .308 against an Elephant's charge, I'd want a steel-clad or monolithic "bronze" round-nosed solid, to minimize the chances of bullet deformation and tumbling.

There's more, but the longer I think about it, I consider such an application of a .308 to be more of a "stunt" than a well-reasoned move.

A larger bore rifle shooting RN solids will both kill & stop PG quite well, while the reverse is certainly not true for really large DG.

My opinion. Your life. But why off-load responsibility for saving you from yourself to your back-up gun? For any number of reasons he may not be in a position to help you at the time you really, really need help.

Dear Alberta

I've been living and hunting in Africa since 1976 and I own and use several rifles, including a 9.3x62 and a 458 Lott.

I do not want to hunt elephant or buffalo with a 308. I just want to use a little 308 (18" barrel, open sights) to hunt game, from warthog to kudu, in big 5 area.

I can assure you that the chances of an unprovocked charge are absolutely minimal.

Being a careful person I want to take in consideration even this remote possibility and I'm looking for the most suitable hunting bullet that will still be able to reach an elephant brain with a frontal shot at five yards distance.

If I miss the brain ... my tough luck!

Based on what has been said on this thread, the best option so far appears to be a FN lathe turned pure copper bullet of medium weight, pushed at the maximum possible speed on a barrel with 1:10 twist.

The shape of the bullet will provide the best foliage penetration and the velocity at my hunting distance in the bush (well below 100 yards) will secure the flattening of the nose, expanding the caliber slightly and will provide a good size exit wound.

Being the bullet relatively short, once the nose is flattened, the center of gravity will be forward, so the bullet will tend to stay in-line.

In addition, a relatively short bullet in 1:10 twist will overstabilize, going to sleep wery close to the muzzle.

This is extremely important, because in a defensive situation you only got one shot and if the bullet is still fish-tailing it may deviate from its path, with umpredictable consequences.

Late-turned bullets, being omogenuous, accepts a far bigger overstabilization than conventional bullets. It is common knowledge that a certain amount of overstabilization will provide an advantage at shorter range.

This is the theory. From the practical point of view it has been not established yet if it will be more suitable (for example) a 130 grains FN at the highest velocity or a 145 grains at a more moderate speed.

Any informed opinion about it?

quote:

Originally posted by Andrea Sandri-Boriani:
Dear Alberta

I've been living and hunting in Africa since 1976 and I own and use several rifles, including a 9.3x62 and a 458 Lott.

I do not want to hunt elephant or buffalo with a 308. I just want to use a little 308 (18" barrel, open sights) to hunt game, from warthog to kudu, in big 5 area.

I can assure you that the chances of an unprovocked charge are absolutely minimal.

Being a careful person I want to take in consideration even this remote possibility and I'm looking for the most suitable hunting bullet that will still be able to reach an elephant brain with a frontal shot at five yards distance.

If I miss the brain ... my tough luck!

Based on what has been said on this thread, the best option so far appears to be a FN lathe turned pure copper bullet of medium weight, pushed at the maximum possible speed on a barrel with 1:10 twist.

The shape of the bullet will provide the best foliage penetration and the velocity at my hunting distance in the bush (well below 100 yards) will secure the flattening of the nose, expanding the caliber slightly and will provide a good size exit wound.

Being the bullet relatively short, once the nose is flattened, the center of gravity will be forward, so the bullet will tend to stay in-line.

In addition, a relatively short bullet in 1:10 twist will overstabilize, going to sleep wery close to the muzzle.

This is extremely important, because in a defensive situation you only got one shot and if the bullet is still fish-tailing it may deviate from its path, with umpredictable consequences.

Late-turned bullets, being omogenuous, accepts a far bigger overstabilization than conventional bullets. It is common knowledge that a certain amount of overstabilization will provide an advantage at shorter range.

This is the theory. From the practical point of view it has been not established yet if it will be more suitable (for example) a 130 grains FN at the highest velocity or a 145 grains at a more moderate speed.

Any informed opinion about it?

I understood what you are looking for. I was trying to tell you as politely but firmly as I could that I believe it to be a foolish idea.


If you have been hunting there since 1976, I should think you would have noticed that whether charges are unprovoked or not is not really relevant. The point really is that they are uncontrolled in almost every sense, and the animal may well be lying in wait for anyone to take its anger out on, not just the person or thing which deserves its wrath. You may or may not be aware it is even in the same area as you. A charge may take place while you are hung in a bit of thorn, have just inadvertently put a foot in a hole, or have your pants down for some reason. You may have to hope a shot somewhere to the head gives you time enough for a better second shot.


The animal will also not be looking to give you a sporting chance to perforate its brain. If you fail to hit that brain, others than just you may suffer. Any PH, if you have one along with you, may suffer all kinds of paperwork and explanatory sessions he did not deserve, if you are severely injured or killed.

Worse yet, if the animal was startled but unwounded when he/she started the charge, and you pop a round into its head and don't kill it immediately, then someone else may well get the joy of following up the wounded beast. Or, heaven forbid, if it should escape, it will go away nursing a very justifiable grudge and may later attack some totally unsuspecting and unarmed individual some miles away.

All of that could be avoided if you would simply carry a weapon capable of dealing with whatever you may run onto, rather than just what you plan to meet.

Again, I think a .308 to be a poor choice when you are hunting anywhere that a genuine charge from a big-5 animal is possible, whether anticipated or not.

If it was just your life which might be done away with or severely inconvenienced by your choice, I would not care a whit what you might use.

As for bullets in the .308, I have a great deal of experience with that round, possibly a good deal more than yourself. I have 8 or so of those rifles at this moment, each of which I have fired from several thousand times to many thousand times. If I were to carry such a rifle in the circumstances you describe (which I would NOT), my first choice would be a steel-cased (and I do mean STEEL jacketed) blunt round-nosed "solid", or a homogenous 100% bronze (not copper) RN bullet such as were/are sold in the U.S. under the descriptive name of "monolithic solids".

To see if any are still available, I would google "monolithic solid .308 bullet"...in fact I will do that for you as soon as I finish posting this.

Edited to add- This is an example of what I would recommend IF I absolutely had to shoot an elephant in the head with a .308 rifle:

https://www.midwaydanmark.com/...ct?SaleItemID=135448

P.S. Using such a bullet might well require re-throating of your .308(s).