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As Colonel Whelen said "only accurate rifles are interesting" For me personally, unless a bolt rifle will shoot 7/8 or better at 100 yards, I am disapponted in it. Now don't get me wrong 1 1/4-1 1/2 is very acceptable accuracy for many but I just can't get interested in a rifle unless it is sub 7/8. To get really enthused about a rifle I like to be in the 2/3" or better range. This all Ginger versus Maryann stuff, just curious as to what other's think... I also don't have a different standard for big bores. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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Mike, I tend to follow the late Finn Aagard's opinion that any hunting rifle that would shoot exactly to the point of aim with the first shot out of a clean/cold barrel was to be treasured above all else. I too am not much interested in rifles that shoot over 1MOA as they just tend to be frustrating. They also waste your time at the bench because you can't be sure if the problem is your technique. | |||
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A rifle that doesn't shoot less than MOA is not interesting to me. However, there are a number of things to check to determine if it's the rifle or me. | |||
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Some things I have picked up through the years that I now look for in my rifles are... 2 possition safty....but not a deal breaker Very light weight great trigger that is safe but super light I like a floor plate but have a couple that are blind Oh, yea....bolt action I realy like the short throw of the Browning and MK-V and have one of each. But day after day it is my 8 year old Kimber 84M in 7-08 topped of with a 2.5x10x40 VariXIII that goes with me the most. It doesn't fit my "perfect bill" but is quite close. How does it shoot? 1 1/2" to just under 2" @ 100 with 5 shots but for Missouri deer that spells dead. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I had a mulie hiding in a plum thicket two years ago....It just laid there with it's head turned looking at me about 200 yards away....nice set of antlers and the deer thought I couldn't see it...but it was quite clear and when I put the scope on it to look at the horns, It was a perfect head shot opportunity..... I'm not into head shots but this one just laid there and challenged me.....I had to take it! I found a rest and put the cross hairs of the 6.5 X 55 between the eyes and slowly squeezed the trigger.....eventually there was a report and the deer totally collapsed.....hit directly between the eyes as intended.... I need a rifle that gives me the confidence that if this type of shot presents itself, it's not going to be a lucky shot when it happens... The 120 grain Northfork at about 3,045 FPS provides a very flat trajectory with sufficient energy to do the job.....and the Douglas barreled VZ-24 I use does in fact yield sufficient accuracy for such a demanding shot. Further the feeding and ejection and extraction is flawless.....things I consider mandatory! The rifle is light and short (21" barrel) and actually quite attractive..... If one wants a place in my gun cabinet, one has to be all these things.....accurate, light, easy handling, and terribly reliable as well as attractive..... Mausers and M-70s seem to do this for me! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I am a huge fan of pre 64 Winchester 70's. They have to shoot under an inch to stick around though, and most of them do! I really like the three shot cloverleaf groups, rapid fire from a cold clean barrel. That is my ultimate, well beyond getting interesting! ETA: All of my 70's have all there coils and no mods to the trigger at all; just adjusted to perfection ala Frank DeHaas! PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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this is one of the very few things i don't see eye to eye with the Col. on .. not that he would have cared .. i like getting, and then fixing, rifles that won't shoot for beans. recrown, bed them, fix them from being torqued, relieve the bolt handle, bed, clean, etc etc etc etc .. then i may or may not sell, trade, give it away ... though, frankly, i like guns and shooting more than i worry too much about "moa or better" .. guns shoot better than i can, most of the time! i have a different measure .. if a fouled, cold bore shoots the same place as a 3 shot-as-fast-as-you-can group, or near enough, i am good with it. that's in effect, a 5 day mixed bag hunt that i shot one critter in the morning, and couldn't clean the rifle till back to camp at night .. and have a chance at something NICE opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Proper stock fit reasonable weight for caliber accuracy and fine balance above all else. | |||
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2MOA is going to drop pretty much anything out to a sensible maximum distance, so any rifle that does that is interesting to me. If I wanted to play the MOA game, then I'd be shooting benchrest, rather than bunnies & bucks.  | |||
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So, what is a sensible maximum distance? | |||
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i'm pretty excited when i get 3 shots/2moa. | |||
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For me no bolt action rifle that will not shoot under 1 " at 100 yards. More important is that this should be from a cold barrel. So many guns will do that now that any that will not do not intrest me. Interesting to me is a classic stocked rifle with quick release scope mounts and express sights for backup. Best of all worlds in a rifle for hunting. | |||
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Interesting doesn't mean accuracy in my opinion. I have a Winchester 71 .348. The rifle IS NOT as accurate as all the hunting rifles I have owned, but will do well within the range intended. But, within the devilsclub and range that I have killed game, it is devistating. This rifle for me,within its intended range is MOST interesting. For one thing, it is wonderful to look at, handle and shoot. Interest, can be function and use within the intended use. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" Hamlet III/ii | |||
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I like to know exactly where the first shot is going, no matter what. If its in an inch thats good if they all stay there. If the group grows, then I work on 'em until it doesn't or I sell the gun. I have a Contender with a Hornet barrel that doesn't shoot anything much under an inch. It doesnt shoot anything over an inch either. I can shoot a lot of little bullets through that one inch hole. DW | |||
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For varmint shooting, especially at the longer distances, it gets interesting when it goes sub MOA. Then the fun begins in trying to get it at or under .5"MOA. That can be difficult to obtain and satisfaction is somewhere in between. For big game, I've shot a lot of critters with shooters that were in the 1.5"-2" MOA at the closer distances. It's when the distances stretch out the interesting part starts at 1" MOA again. | |||
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Interesting to me is a memorable hunt and the rifle doing the job it was asked. I love the range work, but it is all in the context of a bigger picture. (the hunt) A rifle that is hunting accurate is required, not interesting to me. If it shoots MOA, all the better to hunt with. But my standards are not that tight. Interesting to me is what it has accomplished in the field. | |||
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A very tight shooting gun is interesting I have some varmit guns that shoot very very well under moa. But I also hunt with some 1.5 to 2 min guns and kill lots of game with the. I have killed dozens of deer with my 1950s era 99 savage its around a 1.75 one of the best runnig deer guns I have shot. A under moa gun is fun interisting and nice to have but not haveing it doesn't make other guns useless. | |||
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Back when I shot my old Ruger 77 and didn't reload, 1.5-2 MOA was "acceptable", but now, I won't keep a gun in my safe that won't at least shoot an inch at 100 yards. That being said, that 1.5-2 MOA Ruger rifle accounted for over a hundred head of game, and I would probably still be shooting it if it weren't for the internet opening up a whole new world of "toys" that I had never heard of in my small east Texas town. My gun of choice now is a Blaser R-93 Professional, and my my barrel of choice is a 9.3x62 "tracker" length (20"). This is actually a boring combo. With handloaded ammo, this gun will shoot one hole at 100 yards CONSISTENTLY. Funny story, last fall, I carried a friend to the range who had just bought a gun for his grandson, and while we were waiting for the barrel to cool, I was going to check the zero on my rifle. He offered to spot for me, and I fired the first shot at a "shoot and see" target. I asked him where I had hit (which I already knew), and he said, a little perturbed, that I had knocked the red out of the center of the target. When I fired the second shot, I asked him again (for effect). He got a little "huffy" and said that I had either missed the whole target or hit the same hole, and this didn't set well since his grandson's Rossi combo was only shooting "minute of pie plate". I got a good laugh out of it though.  | |||
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I only have 13 rifles in my vault, not counting the 2 extra Blaser R93 barrels or the extra CVA inline barrel. Funny thing is I've never bothered to separate them into categories such as 'interesting' or 'boring' or 'frustrating.' Those traits seem better attributed to things with a soul; like people.
Although I find it a little anal to worry about that .20" difference in a hunting rifle, it makes me wonder if you peed yourself a little when seeing the latter?  | |||
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"Interesting" can mean a number of things to me. Of course a sub 1" gun qualifies but so does one with an interesting history or one with particular beauty. | |||
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1 fun Zr 2, I have a different approach to rifles. I only have six hunting rifles in my battery and that is at least 2 too many. I "shoot" my hunting rifles more than I "hunt" my hunting rifles. So while an 1 1/4 is most likely plenty accurate fo 95% of all hunting, it just doesn't do anything for me. If I was doing it all over, I would simply have a 308 Win that was throated slightly long so I could shoot 180 grainers at or above 2625 fps and 376 Steyr. Since those would be the only two rifles, I would want them to be very accurate also. Like I said this also Ginger vs Maryann stuff. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I don't like interesting rifles. I like boring rifles. My hunting rifles are boring. They shoot everything I feed them to the same spot well within 1MOA (minute of animal). Boring stuff  Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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You do know that the accepted norm for accuracy testing is 5 consecutive 5 shot groups at 100 yards from a bench rest? [like Saeed did recently testing his 22 rimfire rifle, and the NRA has used for decades] If that isn't how you're assessing your rifle's accuracy potential you might as well do as so many other internet shooters and only fire one shot on target and proclaim that rifle to be a one-holer! Not to belabor the point, but as most members of a forum aptly named ACCURATERELOADING do actually reload their own ammo, what's stopping you from achieving a load that will convert your rifle into the 'interesting' category? Have you run out of the myriad of recipe options? I mean what do you do when you go to the range, shoot the very same load over and over?  BTW, instead of 1 fun Zr 2 you could address me by the name in my sig line, Dave. Or do you prefer to mangle usernames like you refuse to proofread and spell check? | |||
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I've seen plenty of rifles that would not group 1.5 MOA no matter how many diferent loads you tried. Also, why settle for a rifle that will only group well with one load when you can have one that will shoot most loads well and some extremely well? At some point, it makes more sense to either rebarrel or otherwise "fix" the rifle or send it down the road and find one that will shoot. Rifles are cheap compared to spending inordinate amounts of time trying to find one load that will work in a rifle that can be easily replaced. I love super accurate rifles as much as the next gut but I also value a rifle that will print basically anything I feed it into 1 MOA groups. While I handload and have for the better part of my life, I like a rifle that will shoot most anything including factory loads.  Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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My combi 12g/6,5*55 holds 4 kinds of ammo within 2,25 moa with iron sights i think its interesting. | |||
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I would think it interesting too! Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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Shows to go ya how much the computer has screwed up our minds.  But for the internet there would be a lot more happy people with a whole lot more rifles. Makes a guy wonder.As a kid it use to turn me on walking through brush or timber plinking ,with what ever gun, at rocks, bottles, cans, corn cobs and a squirrel or two.  That's when a dump was a wild game preserve.Interesting today starts with an idea or an old Mil. rifle that needs a new life or following through with and creating a wild cat even if there is no void to fill.Perking my interest now changes with time but whatever the game it falls into the catagory of fire arms. rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Some people get too hung up on the accuracy thing. Bench rest rifles generally shoot into the same hole. Interesting to me is something else. My most interesting rifle is one I haven't even shot. It's a 100 year old Marlin 1893 take down. They don't make 'em like that any more. Plastic stocks, benches, mechanical rests... that stuff bores me! | |||
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Any rifle that will 5 shots in 1.5" is fine with me. | |||
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I like the ones I build to shoot the same or really close POI every spring I start shooting as it did last fall with a cold barrel.Mine do unless I pull or something.That breeds confidence your building as well as shooting | |||
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In my vault(s) there are many, many rifles. Some have shot their best group in the 0.0s (like 0.07" for 5 shots at 100 yards for one of them, a CAST BULLET BR rifle). For others the best groups are measured in inches (plural). What makes them interesting to me is what they tell me about: Days in the field or at the range. The stories they could tell from the past; with, and before, me. What they were designed to be used for, and how well they do it. The possibilities they represent for the future. How well they leap to my shoulder, eager to go to work when called upon. Their honesty, being what they are, the best they can. Their reliability in my defense. My rifles are my companions. and like animate companions, I find they are good, interesting company when I try to understand their backgrounds and their attributes both plus and minus before asking anything of them. Together, we can have a lot of fun in life with either limited or grand opportunities. I got the feeling Roger B (above) may feel the same way. At least he sings a song in his post that sounds familiar (and comforting) to me. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Excellent AC  | |||
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For me, interesting starts when I aim at game, not paper. | |||
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I have read many of Townsend Whelen's writings, and I own the great compilation of his life's work, Master Rifleman. IIRC, nearly all of Whelen's most treasured rifles were 1.25-1.75 MOA performers. We are indeed spoiled by the quality and accuracy of our more modern rifles. I am so spoiled that I want three shot cloverleafs from a top shelf rifle, or I will be disappointed. I do, however, realize that 1.5 MOA will get the job done in the hunting fields, and I can be happy with that, and am quite happy with that from some of my more "vintage" rifles. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Mike, this is a good question, and I guess it shows how spoiled we have all become. For me it would matter what the rifle was intended for, but not the caliber. Seems like your 7/8's is as good as any for a hunting rifle, but for my 1,000 yard or target work... that would not do.  Member NRA, SCI- Life #358 28+ years now! DRSS, double owner-shooter since 1983, O/U .30-06 Browning Continental set. | |||
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 Nice thread ,Mike. Hope some of us didn't go to far afield. roger I still would like to meet the gal with the still.Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Roger, I said "interesting" and that means whatever floats your boat. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I am quite happy w/ a rifle that will consitantly group into an honest 1" for 3 shots. If the first cold shot goes to POA, then it's even better. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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I am quite fortunate to have all my rifles shoot 1" or less with a reasonable hand load. My last rifle was only shooting 1.5" and I was dealing with it, took it hunting this year and shot two whitetails side by side opening day this year. After hunting season was over I adjusted the load a little and was able to get it under 1" and am very happy, but it still did the job when it wasn't shooting MOA. Extreme Custom Gunsmithing LLC, ecg@wheatstate.com | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael Robinson: I We are indeed spoiled by the quality and accuracy of our more modern rifles. QUOTE] Yep! In the time of Whelen, a sports writer would "wring out" a new rifle and if it kept it's shots inside of 2", it was deemed an excellent hunting rifle. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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