Hello all. This weekend I shot a small whitetail with my .270 using 130 grain Nosler Ballistic TIps. Due to the shot presentation I shot him in the front of the forehead (between the eyes), which of course dropped him on the spot. However I the bullet performance left much to be desired. It travelled through the front of the skull, missing the spine, and only penetrated about 14 inches down the neck through mucsle before lodging under the skin on the side of the neck. Retained wight was only 74 grains for 57% weight retention.
Yes, I'm aware that many will ask "exactly where did the bullet fail while killing this deer?" And it didn't. But I can't help wonder what would have happened if I had shot him through the hip bone or shoulder bone. I know that despite all our cauthions against shooting in a less than desirable location in the field sometimes out shot can miss its mark. These bullets work great on double lung broadside shots, but I am now searching for a new whitetail bullet.
In case anyone is wondering this was a very small southern whitetail, field dressing at 82 lbs. Any suggestions?

Brent
I have shot some stuff in the head.
Head bones are harder than you might think.
I am suprised you got 14" penetration after going through the skull.

I have shot some deer/antelope with 165 gr BT's in the 308 and 300 Wby Mag, and some pigs with the 168 factory Win Ballistic Silvertip, and some pigs with the 180 Rem factory load in a 300 Win Mag. [All Ballistic Tips]

I consider them to be an ok bullet for broadside shots or long range shots which are usually broadside as well.

For general purpose hunting where you might have to shoot a deer sized animal from a bad angle i lioke Nosler Partitins, Trophy Bonded bearclaws, Woodleighs, or Swifts. All of them have given me good service.

The next time I develop a load I am going to try the North Fork Soft points.

I have some loaded for my 405 Win Lever and hope to shoot a deer and a pig this weekend.

The North Fork will give you a big mushroom and good penetration.

I have been shooting a 140 grain acubond.
Accurate as hell in my FN. But I for one think your bullet prefomed prety well.
I am curios about your muzzle velocity, but I assume around 3000, and at what range you shot the deer,
14 inches after going through a skull and another 4 to 6 inches of brain makes 20+ inches of tissue.
A hip shot is not likly to be prety with any bullet , and a shot through the shoulder may well have killed your deer just fine.
But if you are not happy , I would just find another bullet that shoots accuatly in your rifle. All 270 bullets in the 130 to 150grain weight range are designed to shoot deer or elk with.

By the way ! very good shooting.
...tj3006

You got 14" penetration on a fairly short range shot, with a 130gr BT from a 270win, after it smashed a major bone?

Retained weight was 57% ?

Sounds like great performance.

How much more weight would a partition have retained? 10%? How much further would it have travelled? Not very far I think.

Brent, bullet may have done all it could be expected, but in my experience, my 270's of the past all preferred 150 ballistic tips over about 52.0 of IMR 4350, shoots perhaps 2850 if that, but VERY accurate and deadly. I liked the long lean look, and downrange performance, start out and end up with more lead it seems.

Slower powders can get the speed up a tad, but the above load shot very well for me, and downed a NICE buck which actually died about as fast as one shot similarly with a 338-06 200gr Btip. 3 jumps, down for the count. A mulie died fairly quickly, stem to stern with partition of 150gr also.

I think a 140 is a good compromise and TJ may have it. To me 130's had less SD/BC, less accuracy, but yes slightly less recoil. Glad your hunt ended successfully.

This hunt occured on logging land that recieves lots of out-of-season hunting pressure from the locals. As a result the deer there are extremely difficult to hunt. There are very big deer there but I only see one every three years or so. For this reason I am not very picky on what I shoot. I hunt there black powder and rifle seasons and have a blast. It is very desolate, and gives one the impression of being in the wilderness. Or at leat as close as you can get to wilderness in this area of the country.
I have shot several deer there, and they have all been at close range (the longest was 70 yards). This particular deer was shot in the head at 10 feet as he ran directly at me, after being hit with a low lung shot at 60 yards. I have considered going to a different larger caliber (maybe a .358 WInchester in a Remington Model 7), but still need some ranging capabilities as there are many clear cuts that offer long shots as well.

Range was 10 feet! Pal, you cannot complain about a BT blowing up on a ten foot shot.

I happen to agree that the 140gr is a great all around performer in the 270win. My deer load is a 140gr Hornady interlock over 51.5gr N160. Very good soft shooting load.

I guess i'm showing my ignorance in real world situations...lol. I have only shot 7 deer, 5 black powder and 2 with my .270, so I don't have all that much experience. Almost every shot has been broadside, which gave complete penetration, so perhaps I am asking too much.

Brent. Hit bone, penetrated 14" in a deer. Not bad. The chest on that doe was probably only about 8" wide. So if you had hit her shoulder, you would have had lots of energy left beyond the exit wound.

I have shot 130 BT's in a .270 since they came out. I have had full penetration on all Antelope and Deer, except 1 Buck Antelope. I shot that one, quartering toward me at 430 yards. The bullet entered just in front of the leg, went through the length of the antelope and was found in the opposite hip. A "bang-flop" kill. The last deer I shot with that combo was a 4x4 Mulie at 270 yards. Behind the shoulder, about 2" below the spine. There was a blood splatter well beyond the deer, and another "bang/flop" I believe that the shock to his spinal cord accounted for the dramatic colapse of the deer.

Just change bullets. I hate BT's.

Brent

That 130 BT did just what it was designed to do.

You may however as an experiment try go up a notch to the 140 Accubond, similar if not better accuracy and probably the ideal .270 Win bullet. Ahead of 57- 60 grains of Rel 22 it is a teriffic performer

Since the majority of my hunting is for smaller Whitetails at close range, with the occasion longish shot presenting itself, I am considering changing bullets for my .270. It desire greater penetration, but it must still open up rather easily. I don't want it too be too tough. A few years ago a deer camp buddy shot 2 small whitetails broadside with 140 grain .270 Trophy Bonded Bearclaws. No major bone was hit, only the longs. Penetration was complete, but we had a tough tracking job on both deer. They only ran 50-75 yards before dying, but it was such thick cover that he didn't see them fall. Also, there was little blood to follow. After finding both deer I investigated and found that there seemed to be little damage, just a small hole drilled through both deer. It was almost as if the bullet was too tough and didn't open up.
The bullets I am considering ate the 140 grain Hornady Interlock, 130 grain Hornady Interbond, 140 grain Ballistic Tip, 140 grain Accubond, and 140 grain Partition.

I like interbonds and accubonds. They do the job when I do, which is most of the time with some misses. I like the 139-140 range for 270, and 280, the 154 work well in 280.
Judge Sharpe

You are not looking for long range accuracy/performance, so just move to a cup/core 150gr, even a RNSP like the Hornady would be pretty hard to beat for 150yds & less.

So far I have not had a deer take more than a step when hit with a 140 BT from the 270 WSM.

What to do is to heed the old sailors maxim and reef when you first think of it.

Since none of those BT's made it out the other side I reefed and am shooting the superb 140 Accubond. I am very satisfied.

quote:

Originally posted by Brent C.:
Hello all. This weekend I shot a small whitetail with my .270 using 130 grain Nosler Ballistic TIps. Due to the shot presentation I shot him in the front of the forehead (between the eyes), which of course dropped him on the spot. However I the bullet performance left much to be desired. It travelled through the front of the skull, missing the spine, and only penetrated about 14 inches down the neck through mucsle before lodging under the skin on the side of the neck. Retained wight was only 74 grains for 57% weight retention.

So what is the problem?

Balistic tips are designed to work in the 1800 to 2800 fps range, if you shot this deer at 10 feet then the balistic tip would have probably been outside its design envelop and I am surprised it worked as well as it did.

I would be giving balistic tips a miss for close range work, they are a superb long range bullet though.

I had several balistic tip failures at close range with my 300 and 7mm mags, on a few occasions they just blew up on pigs, only penetrating a couple of inches, these bullets have always worked well on long shots though.

You said you can't help but wonder what would have happened if you shot it in the hip bone. Why would you shoot one in the hip?

Brent,
Check out these pics http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat...7&an=0&page=0#129117

That is what can happen with close range head shots with BT’s, the skull is one of the denser bones. If you do a lot of short to medium range shooting check out Hawk Bullets. I’ve found them to be excellent on Southern Whitetails in close quarters.

Dave

Stay with the Ballistic Tips or change to anything else. There's really not any bullet that won't suffice for deer in a .270. It won't make much difference. As you have discovered, "premium" bullets like the North Forks will kill deer, it just takes them longer. With deer, your cheaper bullets kill quicker, so shoot whatever you like.

quote:

It travelled through the front of the skull, missing the spine, and only penetrated about 14 inches down the neck through mucsle before lodging under the skin on the side of the neck. Retained wight was only 74 grains for 57% weight retention.

I am actually quite impressed that the BT did so well.

Thats really good for a B.T. bullet. Normally
they open up to much to do that.

The ballistic tip is a great bullet, but way too many people use it at too high of velocity....

anything above 2700 fps impact velocity and it will perform just like a varmint bullet...

If you shoot a ballistic tip, and the impact velocity is below that figure it will penetrate quiet a bit, even if hitting bone..

That is why many people sing its praises in a 270 at long range and curse it's existance in a 270 at short range...

If someone would take the time and do some testing like I have done, surprisingly, even the varmint weight ballistic tips will penetrate pretty deeply, if there velocity is throttled down below 2700 fps......

I have had 55 grain Ballistic tips in 6mm, being shot at an MV of 2500 fps, penetrate thru 7 and 8 inches worth of wood, and out the back of the tree and keep going.....

even did the same thing when the velocity got down close to 2000 fps...

same experience with 22 caliber ballistic tips...

Ballistic tips perform the same, whether a big game bullet or a varmint bullet..
( putting on my flame retardent suit as I type this).....

at higher velocity they will explode....

At lower velocity, there core stays together enough and their hollow point cavity filled with the polymer tip, will actually penetrate quite a bit...

There core is a lot stronger than a lot of people know... when shot at the lower velocities...

testing ballistic tips against partitions in the 270 actually, in 130, and 150 grains, at an MV of 2500 fps down to 2000 fps, the ballistic tips actually penetrated as much if not more, the closer the velocity got toward 2000 fps...

Media was a wood logs, that were cut open and the penetration measured....

ballistic tips are a darn good bullet, but their failures can normally be credited to being used in a situation that they were not good for....

If someone used a partition with an impact velocity of 1500 fps, we all know that it would not be very good at opening up....So would that constitute that the partition is not a very good bullet for penetration???

of course not.. just each bullet has its strenghts and limitations....

and way too many shooters have no idea what those parameters are....and misapply them...

NOw ready and waiting for the flaming and dirty PMs.... ........ ........

........ .........



cheers
seafire

I guess I just want both...good expansion with deep penetration, at short or long range, on small to large whitetails.

quote:

guess I just want both...good expansion with deep penetration, at short or long range, on small to large whitetails.

No bullet will do it all, thats why we make compromises.

Try the barnes 130 grain TSX, it might work out better as an all rounder, both close in and long range, if it shoots ok in your rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Brent C.:
I guess I just want both...good expansion with deep penetration, at short or long range, on small to large whitetails.

The Nosler Partition is about perfect for what you have described.

For several of my hunting rifles I have 2 different soft poing loads. I have a "soft" soft, for broadside shots, such as when hunting in a stand or at longer range, and a "hard" soft, for thiose times I may have to shot at an animal I have jumped up while walking or when doing a follow up.

Many times if I am hunting with a double I have a soft soft in the right bbl and a hard soft in the left. Or sometimes in my Blaser I will have a soft soft in the chamber and hard softs in the magazine.

This only works if the two different bullets hit in the same place for the ranges you are hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Brent C.:
I guess I just want both...good expansion with deep penetration, at short or long range, on small to large whitetails.

If you don't want to handload, or you want to keep that higher velocity that the 270 is good for.... then you want the partition or the Barnes TSX as suggested by our Down Under Membre Tumbo...

And if you are shooting whitetail only, a good old Hornady, Speer, Sierra or Remington bullet will also work just fine... I really don't think you need a premo bullet if you are talking small whitetails like you did above....

Around here the blacktail deer are real small like you mentioned above.... a 223 is a fine deer round for our local little blacktails...

Deer down - good
Bt's at game? you'll never see me do that. Frangible bullets work really good on varmits, not food

jeffe

Here's some graphs from http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html






The premium bullets in the 3rd chart are the ones that can be relied upon to penetrate at the higher velocities also. The other types of bullets like the BT do give up penetration at the higher velocities.

1000 posts. Do I get a prize? Maybe a gift certificate in the mail?

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

Here's some graphs from http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html

Those are interesting and useful graphs, but two pieces of important information are missing: the caliber and the weight of the bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by LE270:

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

Here's some graphs from http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html

Those are interesting and useful graphs, but two pieces of important information are missing: the caliber and the weight of the bullets.

It says further in the article:

quote:

Some caveats are in order when reviewing Sciuchetti's data and making assessments. These data represent only the performance of 180 gr .308 caliber bullets. Bullets of the same caliber, but a different weight will differ in performance for any given design. Sciuchetti found that penetration of .308 caliber Speer Grand Slam bullets (selected for their similarity of design) gave penetrations of 13 to 13.5 in (150 gr, 2910 fps), 16 to 17.5 in (165 gr, 2855 fps), 14.5 to 19 in (180 gr, 2746 fps), and 16.5 to 18.5 in (200 gr, 2620 fps). It must be admitted that these figures also reflect the influence of differences in impact velocity, though as we have already seen penetration is a weak function of velocity for bullets of this construction and the narrow region being examined. In general, with the exception of the lightest weight bullet, these all performed very similarly with probably a statistically insignificant advantage given for increasing sectional density between 165 grs and 200 grs (average: 13.25, 16.75, 16.75 and 17.5 inches).

Next time use the partition and you will feel better. Yes, less than ideal shots do happen in real life. Last weekend my 130g TSX went through the hip bone and up into the vitals - still weighed 130g. However, I have yet to report on their broadside, double lung performance. I have heard the partition will do well on both counts.

Brent C.: I must ask!
Exactly where did the bullet fail???
You decided to try an iffy shot and the Nosler bullet performed PERFECTLY!
"Perfectly" is how the 27 caliber 130 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips have performed for me on medium size Big Game for the last 7 years now!
I have a pretty extensive history with this bullet (out of my 270 Winchester) now that exceeds the performance (accuracy and lethality wise!) of ANY bullet I have ever used on Big Game!
And I have used a lot of them during the last 46 years!
It is going to be a hard bullet to improve on for Deer size game!
Very hard!
I have now taken Bull Elk, Mule Deer, Antelope and Whitetailed Deer with this fine bullet!
Just days ago I killed a 6x6 Bull Elk (that needed killing!) with the 270 and the bullet in question!
This was after a 300 Weatherby handload hit it in the guts and it had travelled two miles to hide in a thicket!
I have made one shot kills with the 130 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips out past 400 yards and as close as 80 yards on Deer and Antelope!
I am quite certain my handloads are stepping out far in excess of Seafires "unfathomable" 2,700 FPS "limit"!
And again never a bullet failure and first shot lethality is the rule!
I suggest you continue to use the wonderfully accurate and wonderfully lethal 130 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips in your 270.
Based on my many kills over the last many seasons I do not know of a better bullet for Whitetailed Deer - of any size!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Brent, as you can see there are many viewpoints on the NBT. The bottom line is if YOU aren't confident in it, then change to something that gives you the confidence everytime you pull the trigger, close or far. For VG, it's his beloved NBT, for me, I'll stay w/ the NP in an appropriate weight for caliber. Good shooting!

I can speak to BT's as my .270 does not seem to like them. two weeks ago I took a 6 point buck in the chest from 15yards with 130 power points perhaps 10 deg off of head on. I took out his heart, 1 lung and exited out his rib cage./ He stumble and ashuddered for 30 yards and then it was game over. I would have prefeered a broadside but he just kempt coming and it seemed I would have to club him with the rifle. I'm sure the BT's would have worked fine under this condition but they will not group in my rem 721.

Ex570

Your experience was better than expected, 14 in. after going through the skull is better than my experience with the BT. They are pretty explosive on a broadside shot, but not much good on anything bigger than a whitetail IMO.