The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Fact or fiction?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Fact or fiction? | Login/Join |
One of Us |
The subject keeps cropping up concerning Over Kill/Under Kill using various calibers/cartridges. Even the rocks don't last forever. | ||
|
one of us |
The terms overkill and underkill are oxymorons - a thing is either alive or dead. A 22lr through the brain will kill and a 50 BMG in the hind foot will not. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
From actual experience, using a .458 Win Mag, not a Lott and a .300 Weatherby. It has more to do with shot placement than the actual cartridge used. A front on hit to the neck of a white tail doe facing at about 80 yards resulted in a very dead deer and a 2 inch diameter exit hole. A similar shot on the same property on a 10 point buck with my .300 Weatherby and a 150 grain Barnes "X" Flat Base opened up an inch wide wound channel that was easily covered up by the taxidermist. Poor shot placement on lightly constructed animals with almost any cartridge will produce excessive tissue damage from my experience. My estimation, and yes I was the one that started this, and I am looking at this more from the stand point of a handloader/reloader, it is the choices of bullet and the velocities those bullets are loaded too. In my estimation/opinion, and that is all it is, one mans opinion, but the only way I see anything as being overkill is if an animal is blown completely up, no salvageable meat or trophy left. Under kill to me, is a totally bogus concept, and is the result of poor bullet placement by the shooter. One concept I have noticed among some hunters(?) concerns the idea of DRT AKA Dead Right There game. From my research into this concept, the folks that buy into it have either, A, not done that much hunting/killed that many animals, or B, have only been taking head/neck shots, or C been extremely lucky. In the world I have been living/hunting in animals do not always act the way the "BOOK" states they should, simply because I have yet to find an animal that can read. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
|
One of Us |
No need to write a book. Dead is dead when the bullet hits vitals. Ken.... "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so. " - Ronald Reagan | |||
|
| One of Us |
Dead is dead, regardless. The objective in shooting any animal from a gopher to an elephant is to kill it quickly in as humane a way as possible. Hunting big game with the largest gun you can handle is just common sense and good ethics. Preservation of meat for the freezer is a side benefit. War is a different game, where a crippled but alive enemy is better than a dead one as it may provide additional targets (rescuing troops) as well as putting the burden of care on the enemy. | |||
|
| One of Us |
As to dead or deader, no. How I would define overkill... When I was a number years younger I loaded 180 gr. Nosler Ballistic tips in a 338 RUM. MV was around 3,400 fps. IIRC. I shot a Sika buck at about 120 yds. he was quartering toward me. Not much left when I went to retrieve him. Did the same thing with a number of medium size hogs and a 257 Weatherby loaded with 100 gr. Partitions at 3,650 MV. Solid waste of meat. To my mind using rifles with velocities over 3100 fps MV at close range is overkill, even when using mono-metal bullets. JMHO I like being able to eat right up to the bullet hole. Best GWB | |||
|
One of Us |
I am one of 2 people who agreed with the concept. The real issue is the definition of "Over kill" or "under kill". The word "kill" in those two phrases does not mean the same as in normal usage. "Over kill" simply means - too much power of a particular cartridge bullet combination that is not really necessary to take that particular animal cleanly & humanely - like using a 375 H&H for deer etc. In some cases it leads to damage & wastage of good meat - like using a 338 WM on a doe. Similarly "under kill" is about inadequate or marginal power of a particular cartridge bullet combination to take a particular animal cleanly and humanely with little risk of wounding the animal and leading to its unnecessary suffering. We all know that a 223 Rem can kill an Elk or a buffalo. But it is not safe on buffalo and it is not ethical on elk as the likelihood of wounding the animal are high. I keep going back to the story of the poacher who used to go around on bicycle with a .22 RF & shoot elephants in the heart! Yes dead is dead - but not safe & not recommended. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
|
One of Us |
another poor choise in the poll.....I certainly believe in the concept of "overkill".....such as using a .375 H&H for shooting a mouse when a .177 pellet gun would suffice. But underkill?.....WTF is that???...... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
|
Moderator |
if we go with intent.. is there the concept of over kill (works darn near every time, from every angle, IF there is good shot placement) vs under kill (only works under near perfect circumstances, only select angles, and perfect shot placement) the 22 in eye/brain is a great example.. on a rabbit it would kill the rabbit from nearly any angle, from any reasonable difference, and a 270 at 20 yards would be overkill... take that to culling 200-300# animals at 200 yards.. an attempted shot with a 22lr at a hog at 200 yards would be unethical, foolish, and underkill.. and just IF you happened to hit the eye, angled back and in, and killed the hog, it would be a stunt. a scoped 270, at the same circumstance, is merely a question of the shooters skill. a 375 HH, its a question of hitting the vitals, and its over. can a kodiak be killed with a 22lr? sure, its been done... would a 458 winmag, assuming the shooter can handle it, be "more" than enough? oh yeah opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
Then pray tell why did you even make a response? At a ratio of 3.5 to 1 looks like more folks don't buy into the Over Kill/Under Kill theory. Just as some folks believe a .222/.223 is the perfect deer caliber, while others don't, some folks feel that .375's and .458's and other larger calibers are perfect for anything, while others believe that anything larger than a .270 or .30-06 is completely unnecessary. It all boils down to, as with practically everything that touches us in our personal lives as individuals, Personal Choice and I Thank God Each and Every Day, that even as screwed up as this country is, we are ALL entitled to our own personal choices and beliefs. I would not want to live some place where that was not possible. I simply do not believe that Over Kill/Under Kill is a proven scientific fact. To each their own. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
|
| One of Us |
On a S. Dakota deer hunt a few years back, two hunters in our party took deer with 338-378 wby's. One was a rear quarter shot and the other just in back of the front shoulder as I recall. I've seen a lot of deer taken over the years and have never seen exit holes or meat damage as bad both those deer. Not to be argumentative but, in my opinion it was classic overkill. They donated the deer to our guide and he was cussing when saw the damage. Start young, hunt hard, and enjoy God's bounty. | |||
|
One of Us |
Double post?? Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I'm a firm believer in overkill . . . and so is that squirrel that ran under my tires as I was driving to the store today. (Or he would be if he weren't, you know, dead . . .)  | |||
|
| one of us |
I have always considered the concept bordering on silly.. I would suggest moderation like most things is the best approach and over kill probably better than being undergunned. I don't use a 378 Ultra boomer for dikers or whitetail, and I don't use my 25-35 on the Brown Bear of Alaska.. I would use my 375,9.3x62, .338, 7x57, 30-06,and probably my .308 on any game animal on earth under most circomstances. It's not caliber that concerns me, its good quality, well constructed bullets at reasonable velocity for the game hunted..Go with that and they all seem to work on about anything. I never overkilled anything and don't recall underkilling anything. What I have seen is calibers like the big 300s with frangilable 150 gr. bullets ruin a lot more meat than they should, if thats overkill then I am definately against it, but I would call it stupidity, not overkill. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
One of Us |
As long as you can handle the recoil without flinching, you can use a anything you want. It's people that want to hunt with more gun than they can handle wind up wounding game (underkill) with poor shot placement. A man has to know his limits when it comes to recoil. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Not sure how to interpret the question. Do I believe in the concept of Over/Under kill, yes. I personally am a firm proponent of Overkill. Big bores work quite well on anything; the reverse is not true. | |||
|
One of Us |
Shooting a chinese water deer with a 458 would be damn' silly, so yes; there is such a thing as overkill. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Why would it be silly? Do you have actual/physical proof, or is that simply YOUR OPINION? I tend to agree with the person that running over a squirrel with an automobile is Over Kill, but that is A, an extreme case, and B, does not really, even under the broadest interpretation qualify as a "Hunting" situation. As far as Under Kill, to me, that translates to a WOUNDED animal, not a KILLED animal. Dead is dead. Poor shot placement/bullet choice or simple lack of experience regarding the reaction of any particular animal upon being hit with a bullet from a hunting rifle might appear as Under Kill, but both terms appear to be nothing more than excuses used to justify individual beliefs. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
|
| One of Us |
When enough is enough /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
|
One of Us |
I dont swat flies with a baseball bat, I dont do yardwork with an earthmover, and I dont hunt deer with a bb gun. And when I have to work on a car I try to use the right tool for the job. Dead is dead, but hunting rabbits with a 50 BMG strikes me as bordering on psycotic. To each his own. | |||
|
| One of Us |
To each his own. That should apply to personal choices concerning the firearms any individual wants to own or use. In fact it should apply to everyone in every facet of their life as an individual, including personal beliefs concerning issues such as Over Kill/Under Kill. If a person chooses to believe in the concept that is their prerogative and they are welcome to it. That also applies to anyone, that does not believe in the concept.
Here is another concept that gets brought up from time to time, that to me, seems totally out of context to me personally, when used in reference to hunting firearms. When working on a vehicle a person is dealing with equipment that has standardized aspects. A 9/16 inch nut or a 11 mm bolt can be removed with an adjustable wrench, but things many times dictate that only a socket of the correct size can be used to remove/replace the part. Example after example can be given where there is a "Right" tool for the job. Who determines the "Right" rifle for hunting white tail deer. Some states have determined what legally Can Not be used, such as .22 rim fire's, others like Colorado limiting or establishing a Minimum on the diameter/grain weight/velocity levels allowable for hunting Big Game animals. I do not know of many instances, I am sure there are a few, where anyone has established a Maximum allowable, other than the 50 BMG or 8 gauge shotguns for migratory game birds. Looks like if there was a "Right" tool in regards to white tail hunting or any kind of hunting for that matter, why do fire arms manufacturers offer so many different chamberings? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
|
| Moderator |
Poor shooting and shot placement are independent concepts. A 50 bmg in the shoulder of a rabbit is overkill. The same shot , in the dirt 10 feet away is still overkill for rabbit hunting. It is also a miss. A 22 in the same thing, a rabbit and a miss, is still a miss No more than fps change on a hit or miss, can I believe that "overkill" changes. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
There is a reason why most big game hunting cartridges are what they are, averaging from oh, I dont know, roughly 45 to 75 grains of powder capacity as opposed to 1/2 a lb or so. There is also a reason why people dont use howitzers for squirrels. Or axes for skining game. But hey, if you want to use a 458 winchester for a speedgoat, by all means endulge yourself. We all have our own idea of what is and isnt a good caliber for this or that. But IMHO there comes a time when it becomes pretty obvious that a certian amount of firepower just isnt needed, or even intelligible. Maybe it is all in fun, maybe someone just likes to practice with their DGR or?? I think any reasonable person can see the point. Sometimes I hunt rocks with a long barreled 45-70 just because its fun. But when it comes to big game, there is a lot to consider about selecting a caliber. You want a monster slug that will clear out a cornfield from the precussion alone for a whitetail deer, have at it. And when you do be sure and tell us about it, Im always up for a good laugh. | |||
|
One of Us |
Well I've used anything from a .416 Rigby to a 7 iron to cull out cats and never felt over or under gunned. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Wow, you sure seem to believe that you know a lot. The reasons I use the larger calibers include the facts that I simply like the larger calibers. All my hunting is done with handloads that are put together using the lower velocities/energies of the data available for that cartridge and using premium bullets like the Barnes "X" Flat Base or similarly constructed bullets. Of the two deer I shot with a .458 Win Mag, neither resulted in the loss of more than 1 pound of meat if that. I have seen .243's and similar rounds cause tremendous tissue damage. I do not hunt for horn/antler, I hunt for meat. Not only do I use large rifles, I also from time to time use Lora's .257 Robert's with factory loaded 117 grain Remington round nose core-locts, the only firearm I have access to that I use factory loaded rounds in on a fairly regular basis. From experience those bullets out to two hundred yards or so with a heart/lung shot gives me a dead deer within 20 yards or so and a 1 1/2 to 2 inch exit hole, minimal meat destruction. Using the premium bullets out of the larger calibers at lower velocities produce basically the same results for me. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
|
| one of us |
I voted Yes. I think to use a cartridge, or type of bullet, that is commonly thought to be not suited for a certain animal is underkill. I feel that it is best to use a cartridge, and bullet, that can cleanly and quickly kill the animal from ANY angle. If for some reason you are in a situation where you are using a cartridge, or bullet, less than desireable, then I would recommend you use it like a Bow and Arrow, ie. only take the perfect shot. Like wise there is Overkill, IMHO. I mean, you DO NOT need a 450 No2 to kill deer and wild pigs. But if you can shoot it good, and pick a proper bullet suitable for the game and velocity you are shooting, then "overkill" is not a bad thing. I much rather have Overkill, than Underkill. And as always the most important things, are where you hit the animal, and what bullet type you hit it with. It is the Bullet, that does ALL the work. For instance, I would rather hunt elk with a 270 Win, with a good deep penetration 130gr bullet, like a Nosler Partition, than a 300 Mag with a 150gr Ballistic Tip. Now for deer or antelope at longer ranges, the Ballistic tip is a great bullet. So when people talk about Overkill or Underkill, I always consider the actual bullet being used, as well as the cartridge. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
|
One of Us |
I didn't vote because this thread appears to be nothing more than a fishing expedition.  ----------------------------------------------------- Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him. Proverbs 26-4 National Rifle Association Life Member | |||
|
One of Us |
I voted yes, To me underkill is using a caliber, bullet, and velocity combination that will result in a higher probability of a wounded animal or a long track with broadside shot to the vitals. ex: 22 LR for deer Overkill is a caliber, bullet, and velocity combination that will either A)cause undue trauma, resulting in a huge loss of meat and B) beyond the recoil tolerance of the shooter, resulting in poor shots. "though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." ---Thomas Jefferson | |||
|
one of us |
I have similar thoughts about overkill being more to do with fragile bullets at high velocity, than with actual caliber. Some of what I've seen is the bigger calibers going a little slower damage much less, while really fast stuff leaves a lot of bloodshot meat. So caliber isn't the deciding factor for me. What happens to the animal is. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Not a fishing expedition at all, was not meant to be. The poll is whether or not Over Kill/Under Kill is a factual concept or not. If you believe it is, that is your prerogative. I have no problem with you or anyone else believing in Over Kill/Under Kill, I do not believe that you can say the same! Do you believe that hunters in America should be limited to certain calibers, based on the beliefs of a few individuals? I don't! I think hunters should be able to freely choose what caliber they wish to use. Rub Line, can you show proof where that is not a reasonable concept? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
|
| one of us |
CHC. Just because one might think that a 105 howitzer is overkill for WT deer, doesn't mean he thinks that another should be forcibly limited in his choices. | |||
|
| One of Us |
That Sir, is the point I am making. For some folks anything larger than a .270/.308/.30-06, are Over Kill. In fact some folks feel that those three calibers are Over Kill. The question however concerns whether or not, Over Kill/Under Kill are factual concepts. People seem to be getting offended over a simple concept, Over Kill/Under Kill are not factual concepts. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I shot a roebuck(40 ibs) with my .378Wea. That was not an "overkill", but rather an overpowered caliber for the job. Underkill?. Well shooting a cape buffalo with a .22magnum is not an "underkill", but rather a poor assesment of the situation. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
|
| One of Us |
Since a rifle caliber can be too small for certain species then there would seem to been validity to "underkill". Overkill, not so much. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yet you don't see shooting rabbits with a .458 as silly? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Not if you shoot the sumbiches in the head I don't! It is a good way to get accustomed to shooting the bigger rifles, which is something many folks don't spend enough time doing. It is the lack of practice under actual field conditions which results in people not learning to shoot the bigger guns as accurately as they should, which results in people claiming such fallacies as Under Kill which is nothing more than poor shot placement/poor choice of bullets to do the job desired, which results in wounded game. As has been said many times by many people down thru the years regardless of the diameter of the bullet or the speed it is traveling at, if it is not accurately shot into the vital organs of the intended target, it is not going to do the job it was designed to do. Accurate bullet placement with any gun comes thru working with that gun and the cartridges that will be used in it, and if that experience and confidence can be gained by shooting bunnies in the head, what is the problem? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Some of this talk comes up when Randall talks about hunting Texas whitetails with his 375 H&H or someone asks what's a good deer round for a 300 RUM? Someone will usually chime in about overkill or using more gun than needed. Is it more gun than needed, of course but why not hunt with what you want? Most of us own several rifles and some of the bigger ones we may never get to hunt with. I don't see any problem with it. I'll probably use my 350 Rem Mag this year for whitetail which many would suggest is overkill for a 120lb Texas whitetail. I just want to hunt with it. | |||
|
One of Us |
I didn't vote because there was no option for "should a poster put the actual thread topic in the thread headline so as not to waste people's time opening uninteresting threads?"  | |||
|
One of Us |
Dead is dead...there are no degrees of it. I guess there is an argument for being undergunned but overgunned never made sense to me. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia