In my experience the 175 factory RN's are slow killers. American ammo I'm referring to. Pressures hence velocities are kept very low. I got such a dislike after using them for a whole season (3 deer and 1 hog & and 2 exotic sheep) that I never reloaded them for my 7x57.

to each his own I guess but I like that setup in 7x57. mini freight train and hits deer hard.

I found 175 Woodleigh PPSNs, going slow, to be emphatic, fast killers on big game.

I used the 140 grain Partition for anything tougher than deer and the 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips for deer. Pushed both to near 2700 fps out of my 19 inch barreled 7x57 and can say the Ballistic Tip in the 150 grain weight is a very good bullet that doesn't bloodshot meat any worse than other cup and core bullets, expands nicely and give excellent penetration. For a while this bullet could be bought very cheaply from Shootersproshop and I have more than a lifetime supply.

Swampshooter, almost all 7x57 is under loaded to the hilt so it won't blow up the junk 95 and 96 Mausers and the single shots out there...It is in reality a 30-30 with moar factory stuff.

A 175 Nosler at near 2700 FPS equals the 180 gr. Nosler in a 30-06 at 2700 FPS..

Someone, I think its Norma, has a 129 gr. bullet at 2700 or something like that..it should help you out.

Gotta love the "junkie 95 and 96 action comments"

Junk ? methinks not !

Was good enough to put the hurt on Uncle sam and give his military establishment a serious hard on for the same !

So the year is 1894...... think long and hard about this one! ... Americans were still sniffing smoke from a mixing of charcoal, with some commonly found cooking ingredients , when this "Junkie" 93 actioned rifle put the world on notice !

2300 fps for a 173 gr bullet, not fast by todays standards but good enough to put the hurt on anyone who come within 1200m of this itty bitty bullet.

At the Rottweil shooting grounds
15,005 shots from a rifle of which 720 were rapid fire and only after 9000 shots was barrel wear noticed!

The Mauser at Oberndorf on the Neckar appearing before a military commission 1893
Randomly picked rifles.
12,750 shots per rifle in strings of 20 shots at ranges between ranges from 250m out to 1200 m
Open sights ! They measured groups on this one.

They shot up to 300 shots rapid continuous fire enough to cook a hand that touched open barrel steel

Junkie ? No revolutionary ! when we consider that this all went down 124 years ago !

I agree with ALF, the 95 and 96 Mausers were far from being junk. Both can be safely used with more modern pressures. My M96 6.5x55 is still my favorite deer rifle.

Sometimes there apparently isn't any rhyme or reason to what the factory does to older cartridges. A good example would be the factory loads for the .300 H&H. It suffers with the same low pressure loads and I at least have never heard a good reason for it.

2700 fps on a 175 gr NP from a 7x57

Pray explain how and with what powder combination ?

That is 150 fps above the most ambitious
"modern" loads out there. The "modern" 7x57 maxes out at 2550 fps. You run out of room and also entering the realm of the proof load

It really depends on where they were made. Spain for instance made some soft receivers and that's why factory loads are kept down and also originally it was proofed at much lower pressures of the time.

The 7x57 is a great round but the original chambering had a very long throat. A modern chambered barrel in a good receiver will hold it's own for just about anything you want to do.

Joe

Personally I appreciate the long throat. I've owned one 95 and re-barreled 2 mod 98s with 19"barrels with the long throat. Seating the 175s out as far as I could I was able to get enough powder to get 2500 fps., again with 19" barrels, with no pressure signs. The long throat giving additional powder room for the 175s really makes this rifle and cartridge stand out form the herd. JMHO. roger

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
2700 fps on a 175 gr NP from a 7x57

Pray explain how and with what powder combination ?

That is 150 fps above the most ambitious
"modern" loads out there. The "modern" 7x57 maxes out at 2550 fps. You run out of room and also entering the realm of the proof load

and 100fps faster than remington and norma 7x64 brenneke loads with the same weight bullet


another "bordering on proof load" would be a 404 at 2700 fps ..

Are there any 175gr RN bullets in 7mm since Hornady discontinued their offering?

I chronographed the 175 7x57 ammo that I had. American made, on an Oehler 33 it barely broke 2,000 fps out of my rifle.

Well all my 7x57 are 98s or G33-40s actually, and they have 30-06 magazines and long throats to seat a 175 gr. bullet in .284..I use H414 powder, suggest you try it before you jump..

I get 2709 in the one I just built, the others got 2640 to 2700 FPS in two others..Most long throated 7x57 on good actions working in the 60,000 PSI arena will do that. I will also state that the Brno mod. 21 and 22 will also handle the same H414 loads I use, been shooting them for 50 plus years, and Alf,I know you have a few of those. I'll be glad to give you those loads if you email me your email address.

I wouldn't recommend using any of my loads in a 95 or 96, and I do consider them nice smooth actions, well built in some cases, but not for 98 specs..I have no use for them, and that's my option..

"modern " Pressure limits for the 7x57 is 60,000 psi

So given this the physics cannot be ignored

175 gr @ 2700 is over the 60,000 psi limit!

ME: 175 gr @ 2700 fps = 2833 foot pounds
The maximum ME of the CIP proof load = 2544 ft pounds and a peak proof pressure of 70,706 psi.

The 175 gr 2700 fps combo falls in the realm of a proof load !

2700 fps on a 154 gr bullet within the 60,000 psi ceiling is doable


Using a 154 gr bullet and H414 60,000 psi happens at 2700 fps
a better option is Hybrid V 100 @ 2770 fps @ 60,000 psi
and the best is H4350 @ 2800 fps @ 60,000 psi
this is a 104% density.

The max density for H4350 is 110 %, one cannot get more then this into the case and still seat a 175 gr bullet but at 110% the 60,000 psi limit is breached.

My loads based on my two chronographs, are as quoted, my cases will reload up to 8 to 10 times, usually 3 trims, my primers pockets stay snug, Im considerably over book max, which is common in the 7x57 or 8x57s..Ive used this load for at least 40 years, I don't quote my loads, Have no way of knowing the exact pressure. just give you the specs on my rifles and the powder used..Bottom line is its worked for me. I use mostly 284 specs or Ackley IMP. loads in some cases, and Ive not been able to duplicate these loads with any other powder..Im still in one piece. I don't share my loads with anybody, and won't quote the grs. to anyone as a rule..My hunting load is at 2650 FPS I did that because the accuracy is normally just a tad better.

Ive tried 4350 and its a decent powder but I could not get much past 2500 plus some FPS as I recall and the load was right up there. I do recall the load but wont print it.

Im good with my loads and my chronograph, its worked for me for many years in the heat of Texas and Africa without a hitch..Im just finishing up my new custom 7x57 with a 22 inch barrel, it shoots my 175 gr. load very well indeed but the shorter barrel is getting me less than my standard 24 or 26 inch barrels, but not by much..Its averaging 2609 FPS for 10 shots, taking out the high and low. Made this one for myself. Perhaps, like in Starwars, I go where no man has gone before!

With all respect, methinks the 95s and 96s are junk!

Star Trek , Ray.
I think what we're witnessing are two schools of thought being expressed. One is scientific text book and one is a step beyond gained by experience. The step beyond term is used because you arrive there by the text book approach.
For a long time reloader who studies and understands his and other's acquired data and uses it intelligently there should be no problem.
Most do not have access to accurate pressure measuring but rely on case and primer pocket appearance and measurements, primer appearance and popping,along with bolt lift force to name a few.
Using the text book approach is definitely the safest way for most.
The the loading data and results using the step beyond approach is good info but just that. It's the story of what one man and his equipment have "achieved" but not gospel for anyone else's go to loads.
When you want to get into experimental loading ask yourself WHY? What do I want to gain? These questions became harder and harder to answer the older I got. roger

I had a 7MM Weatherby with an eroded 26-inch barrel scheduled for replacement. My load for it shot 160-grain bullets at 3,100 fps. I decided to do some experimenting. I cut it down to 24 inches and it lost 80 fps. Then I cut it down to 22 inches and it lost another 80 fps. At 22 inches and 2,940 fps it wasn't a whole bunch better than a hot loaded .280 Remington.

Also, I have a 7 X 57 that had a 26-inch barrel and I cut it down to 22 inches to make it more manageable with a silencer. I think it only lost about 50 fps with the two loads I have for it, one with a 120-grain bullet originally at 2,950 fps and the other with a 120-grain bullet originally at 2,750 fps. After putting the 9-inch long silencer on it, the gun gained back all the lost velocity plus another 10 fps! I had read about velocity gains with silencers but did not really believe it until I saw it happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Swampshooter, almost all 7x57 is under loaded to the hilt so it won't blow up the junk 95 and 96 Mausers and the single shots out there...It is in reality a 30-30 with moar factory stuff.

A 175 Nosler at near 2700 FPS equals the 180 gr. Nosler in a 30-06 at 2700 FPS..

Someone, I think its Norma, has a 129 gr. bullet at 2700 or something like that..it should help you out.

Except the 180 in .308 at 2700 fps will dump energy into the animal faster than the 175 in .284 at similar Mv.

What is the point of over-penetrating and wasting energy on what lies beyond the target?

A 140 gr bullet in ,284 is much better suited for deer and black bear sized targets.

quote:

Originally posted by IOWADON:
I had a 7MM Weatherby with an eroded 26-inch barrel scheduled for replacement. My load for it shot 160-grain bullets at 3,100 fps. I decided to do some experimenting. I cut it down to 24 inches and it lost 80 fps. Then I cut it down to 22 inches and it lost another 80 fps. At 22 inches and 2,940 fps it wasn't a whole bunch better than a hot loaded .280 Remington.

My 280 loaded with MRP @ just under 60k chamber pressure and 139gr Interbonds got 3250 fps out of a 22" barrel. I think a 160 wouldn't have been more than 200 fps slower.

I love to handload, I load tons in the cold winter months of Idaho and shoot out the door of my shop..

Ive never said that I could justify a couple of hundred feet per second, if that was my intention I would simply shoot a larger caliber gun..what I like to do is squeeze everything I can out a certain caliber at what I call safely,I like to know my gun..

Some call it crazy, but it keeps me from going insane!!

BTW, I have never blown a gun up or damaged one in any way, Ive blown a primer, maybe two, and blew the extractor off a mod. 70 because a book load was a misprint, all than in 60 plus years of reloading..

I don't quote my loads as a rule, merely my results and I don't recommend hot loads and my posts show that I find absolute max but cut my hunting loads back a grain or two..

I don't recommend to anyone to walk where I walk, that's just up to an individual, but there are more of us out there than one would think, Some are very well known, they just hide better than I!

For you guys talking "long throats", what would that measure out to? I have a m98 that is what i'd consider short throated. I seat 140gr bullets to 2.900" to be just off the rifling. My 160's have to be pushed way down in the case.

Perry

Perry that depends on the bullet, ogive etc..My 7x57s are set up with a 30-06 length box and bullets seated one caliber deep in the case except for the 130 gr. Speer, I seat just deep enough to hold, never has hurt the accuracy with that jump, another falacy by those in the other camp...

Jeffe,
I'd send you my load data but you would sure as hell blow up a 95 or 96 in a short chamber and drop a law suit on me..

Im probably at 65,000 with the max load I use with H414, just a guess and Im good with it..My hunting load is two grs. less than my max load. Its considerably over book max in todays reloading manuals..Why am I explainging this to you, I have no need to justify, Im the only one shooting it..

But hey get yerself some H414 and a long throated gun, seat a 175 gr. half way to the cannalure, lets see if you got enough savy to do that right. Im not sure you know where max is with such a gun and your just bloviating. Anyone wanting to drop by and shoot one of my guns is welcome and I got a chronograph. So far Ive been bless without any problems, guess Im just braver that some and walk where no man has walked before.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

guess I'm just braver that some and walk where no man has walked before.

You don't walk alone. roger

The saga of the long throated, bullet seated out 7x57 continues :

Subject:

Boer war issue DMK 1897 7x57
173 gr cupro nickel bullet
cal: 7.25mm
Bullet length: 30.93mm
Bullet seated to 1.226 cal lengths for cal 7.25mm ( 0.287 )
The bullet does not have a true cannelure but rather a indent caused by factory crimping set at 8.89mm from base ( datum point at the lowest mark of this indent)

COL: 78mm
if this setup is loaded to a cal depth seating we end up gaining about 2mm over COL

Compare to:

Hornady Interlock 175 Gr RN
Cal. .284
Length: 30.58mm
Cannelure groove at 10mm with datum point at lower edge of the cannelure
if bullet is seated at this point the seating is at 1.3 cal lengths.

Seated at cal depth ie at .284 inches the COL for this setup is 80.5mm

So both these setups will fit a 82mm mag box as found in the Brno M21 and is still short of a 30-06 ( the Brno M 21/M22 will not accept a COL 30-06 )

if the 7x57 is seated to a COL of 85mm same as a 30-06 COl the bullet is at the mouth of the case with no contact.

The question is is Ray's claimed setup much different from the factory setup, not much at all as the original factory setup was loaded to a mere 1.226 cal depths vs Ray's 1 cal depth.
The apparent gain in case capacity is minimal and with the 7x57's "normal" leade of 19.2mm will accommodate just about any bullet seating depth with a 175 gr bullet.

From what I read your question Alf is, is "Ray's velocity claim just " Seems that a witness , maybe you Alf, with Ray pulling the trigger with his rifle and reloads would find an answer to this debate. roger

Every man does what he may and may claim as he may.

my point is just that some calibers and cartridges have fascinated me from childhood days and since my first introduction to them I have collected data and notes ( and rifles some to many) on each.

So when I see numbers I ask how and when and with what because some are well worth trying... anyone can do with a few extra FPS here and there

So I have not tallied my score on the 7x57 but I have a dozen plus actually way more than a dozen of these rifles mostly old and some new and some American in my safe !

Well Alf, I'll make an exception in your case if for no other reason than my respect for your knowledge..

Send me your email address to my email below and I will forward you the loads I settled on many years ago. You try them, chronograph them in a 24 inch barrel, knowing that a few of them were originally for my 27" original Mauser, most were chronographed in a 24 inch barrel, and let me know what you think knowing of course that I will continue using my loads, inasmuch as they have worked for me

Ray,
to tell you the truth, i wouldn't willingly be within visual range of you, with your loads, and an intention to shoot them --

Well Jeffee that's the good news, whats the bad news..

Not to mention Ive used these loads for over 40 years and have never blown a primer on a 7x57 nor have I locked up a bolt, or blown a gun up, so am I supposed to adhere to your usual BS that you read somewhere. should I bow to a nebulous pressure or 40 plus years of survice with the 7x57..Ive never quoted you a load, and never will..

you done, thremonuclear ray?

I had to take a mallet to a certain 8mm rifle with your loads in it ... you sold them together ... just saying, rayray .. your loads are well past "Warm" -- you didn't mix and match some deepthroat rounds with normal rifle, did you?

So what is "caliber length" that is referred to here?

Perry

For the "American" 7x57 it is .284 inches or 7.21mm

If you are shooting a original 7x57 with Euro bullets then 7.25mm or .285 inches.

I just measured a Nosler NP 175 gr bullet and it is 34.62mm long
Seated to one caliber length it gives a COL of 82.93mm for a case length of 56.48mm

My Brno ZKK 600 has a wicked mag box at 87mm

Some 7x57 Trivia:

The original 7x57 spec for ammo as supplied by DMK (Deutsche metallpatronenfabrik Karlsruhe) as published in Korn's Mauser Gewehre und patente published in 1908 cited the Load as follows:

Bullet: 173 gr Cupro Nickel RN
Load: 37.8 gr Rotweiller 91/93
COL: 78mm
Muzzle vel. 2388 fps

Mausers rifles and barreled actions were set up for this load. This was the Boer War load and the stuff of legend !

As such then I have loaded my unscoped 7x57's to this velocity or close to in order to get them to group.

So here is a interesting specimen:

This is a Swedish Mauser 1894 carbine in 7x57.
The story behind this is interesting because Sweden never chambered for 7x57, their deal was 6.5x55

These rifles were actually sold by the Swedish Government to Interarms in the USA for a sum of 30 kroner each.

Interarms stored most of these as are and then at some point sent a batch to Denmark where Madsen rebarreled them to 7x57

The plan was te resell them to El Salvador. Apparently his never came about and these rifles ended up on the surplus market supplied by Interarms

Anyway here is one of them:

A Model 1894 "Swedish" Mauser in 7x57.
The front bridge wears the Waffen Fabrik Mauser inscription

I mounted a Scout scope via the rear sight screw holes and this little gun shoots very well for its age with my 2300 fps 175 gr RN Hornady loads.

Some more "old Mauser 7x57 stuff "

Mauser number 1** this is a Rigby 275 No 1 in Mauser transition action.... the forerunner of the M98.

This old girl is more than a 100 years old and she shoots quite well open sights et al.

my eyes have undergone the old age thing of too short arms so unscoped shooting is a no no .



Hornady 175gr RN @ 2200 fps open sights @ 100m


Mauser M96 ( another over 100 year specimen)
IMR 4350 175 gr Hornady RN



Brno ZKK Barnes TSX 160 gr IMR 4350 44gr



Brno ZKK 600 With South African Rhino bullet 160 gr



Brno M21
IMR 44 gr Hornady 175 gr RN

Jeffe, cut the BS, you don't even know what my loads are, nobody does..As opposed to an attack, make it a conversation. Quit using AR for support as opposed to illumination through discussion such as Alf has done, he and I disagree but try to keep it civil..you have all the virtures I dislike and none of the vices I admire when you make such off handed posts.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Jeffe, cut the BS, you don't even know what my loads are, nobody does..As opposed to an attack, make it a conversation. Quit using AR for support as opposed to illumination through discussion such as Alf has done, he and I disagree but try to keep it civil..you have all the virtures I dislike and none of the vices I admire when you make such off handed posts.

Rayray,
you don't listen to any contradiction I tried, about 5 years ago, to get you to stop posting how your HOT ROD loads to way in the heck past book ... it aint safe .. you resorted to name calling and insulting language -- if that's what you need, i too can stomach a certain level to get your attention

I have seen YOUR loads in a gun YOU supposedly worked up the loads in -- that's not an attack, it's a fact -- and YES, i had to take a mallet to the rifle to get it open.

So, the question is, did you put in some of your deepthroat rounds by mistake, cuz, brother, they were way the #### over pressure

quote:

Originally posted by Joe Henderson:
It really depends on where they were made. Spain for instance made some soft receivers and that's why factory loads are kept down and also originally it was proofed at much lower pressures of the time.

The 7x57 is a great round but the original chambering had a very long throat. A modern chambered barrel in a good receiver will hold it's own for just about anything you want to do.

Joe

Please note that the Spanish made receivers were not 95's & 96's.

Just more of the same Jeffe, you don't know my 7x57 loads, that's more BS, You base all your acquired knowledge out of some magazine..Ive nothing more to say to you, lets just quit boring people and let it go..I ain't going to change and neither are you.