hallo everybody
i'm new on this forum ,
any special suggestions for the calibers below keeping in mind that I reload all my cartridges and here in Italy we find basically only Vithavuory and Norma powders?
i'm in NW of Italy and i'm planning to go hunting in the Alps mountains ; ( chamois , roe deer and wildboard most of all , maybe red deer too )
usually the shooting distance is between150 and 250 yards
(sometimes 300yds)
I 'm not able to handle the recoil of a 7mm rem mag , i can barely "dominate" a 30.06 , in a 3.3kg (6.9lbs) rifle
I must order (is a too long story why....) a CZ 550montecarlo , and I was thinking in 7x57 or 7x64 cal. . what are your suggestions ?

thank a lot to all
Albert

aber1911 welocome to the forums. I would go with the 7x64 myself.

.

Do yourself a favor, get the 7x57. The 7x64, 280 Remington or 7 mag are just 06's with lighter bullets. You might load them down, but why not get the 7x57 to start with. I've killed some deer with this caliber and one elk and a lot of wild hogs and it works great, especially with Nosler Partitions. If you want flatter trajectory for smaller lighter game at longer range use 140 bullets, more penitration at closer ranges use 175's.

I agree with Alf, if your shots are going to be say 250 yards+ then I would consider the 7x64 which is roughly equivalent to our 280 Remington. For the game and distances you state, if it was my choice, I would probably opt for the 7x57 with 160 grain bullets as an all purpose cartridge.

Since you have a problem with recoil, I'd use the 7x57, there probably isn't any difference in killing power anyway.

I concur, go with the 7x57 if you're recoil shy. On that note though, you might consider trying a good recoil pad on your rifle. I have a Pachmayr Decelerator pad on my 7 mag and it's a softer push than some 7mm-08's (almost the same as a 7x57), 308s and even 30-30's I've fired.

aber1911,

Welcome to the forums!!

One thing to consider besides the recoil:
Since you are in Europe (as you stated in Italy), I believe some Euro countries, like France, have a prohibition against military cartridges/chamberings. The 7x64 would not have this problem. I don't know what other countries you might plan to hunt some day but I thought I would mention this. But, it might not be a consideration for you. And I'm ceratinly no expert on the gun laws of the various European countries. I don't know if any other Euro countries have the military cartridge prohibition besides France. Maybe some of our European forum members can provide some more information.

As to the recoil level:
Since you reload, you can always handload the 7x64 down to 7x57 recoil / performance levels if need be.

Just some points to consider.....

-Bob F.

thanks to everybody!
one more question , i've foud a Browning European (it is a model just like the A-bolt or the Eurobolt) in 7x64 but the barrel is only 22" (56cm)
I mean , for what i know the 7x64 is tested by RWS in65cm (25.5") barrels
this "short" barrel is going to make the caliber "underperforming" ?
many thanks

The .280 Remington, which is basically a ballistic twin to the 7x64, is commonly sold here in the U.S. in rifles with a 22 inch barrel. You will, of course, lose some velocity in the shorter barrel compared to the velocties given in RWS ballistics charts but probably not enough to worry about. The .280 Remington performs just fine in a 22" barrel and I'd bet the same would apply to the 7x64. But, I've never used a 7x64 or a .280 Remington so I have no actual experience with either one. Hopefully some of the forum members with 7x64 or .280 Rem experience will comment.

I just looked at the RWS ballistic charts and here's what they show:

.280 Remington
Bullet: 10.5g (162 gr) TIG
Velocity: 850 m/s (2788 fps)
Test Barrel: 65 cm (650 mm) (25.5 inches)

7x64
Bullet: 10.5g (162 gr) TIG
Velocity: 880 m/s (2887 fps)
Test Barrel: 65 cm (650 mm) (25.5 inches)

RWS has several loads for the 7x64 but only one for the .280 Rem. The example I list shows the same bullet in each cartridge for comparison.

For comparison:
Federal Ammunition
.280 Remington
Bullet: 160 gr Nosler Partition
Velocity: 2800 fps
Test Barrel: 24 inches

-Bob F.

As was pointed out before, go with the 7X57 if you are "recoil shy".

Perhaps another option would be 7mm-08.

aber1911,

This would have been something for you...
This Brno VZ 21 (Alf ?) 7x57 Including 160 cartridges, German claw mount bases, no scope. Sold at Widforss gun auctions in Stockholm, Sweden for $ 500 (no kidding)




Husky

On the 28th of May 2005 i should add!

husky

Both are great cartridges, so either would be an excellent choice. Unless you get into a gun-control problem with a 7x57 because it was a military cartridge, whereas the 7x64 was not -- as someone mentioned above -- I'd recommend the 7x57. It's a sweet cartridge; in my opinion it's one of the half-dozen or so greatest ever invented. It will kick less and use less powder to get nearly the same velocities as what you can get from the 7x64. If this matters to you, it will also be possible to find ammunition and brass for the 7x57 throughout the world, and that is less true for the 7x64.

In either of these -- 7x57 or 7x64 -- you will get entirely satisfactory results from a 22 inch barrel. There will be a slight loss of velocity from what you could get from the longer barrel, perhaps about 100 f.p.s., but it will not be enough to be noticable in any hunting or target shooting situation. Moreover, the shorter barrel will give you a slightly lighter, more portable, and easier handling rifle.

My Ruger 77 in 7x57 has a 22 inch barrel. I would not want it to be longer.

quote:

This would have been something for you...
Husky

Sorry, but it's already spoken for......

Cheers
K9

"usually the shooting distance is between150 and 250 yards
(sometimes 300yds)
I 'm not able to handle the recoil of a 7mm rem mag , i can barely "dominate" a 30.06 , in a 3.3kg (6.9lbs) rifle
I must order (is a too long story why....) a CZ 550montecarlo , and I was thinking in 7x57 or 7x64 cal. . what are your suggestions ?"


Go with the 7X64 you can always duplicate the 7x57 laods and "ssllooowwwllyy" work your way up to faster speeds.

Thanks a lot to everybody for the useful suggestions .
unfortunately I have to change caliber :-( ;
The point is that the gunshop (that owe me enough money to buy this rilfle :-( ) is giving me hard time about a 7x57 or 7x64 rifle that is not in stock and has to be ordered (it takes months ! :-( )
so i was thinking to go for a regular CZ 550 in 30.06cal. ( it is already in the shop and I want to close this "deal" soon :-( ) and "get used tu the recoil" using maybe some "anti-recoil" pad
(beside the old classic06 is a very versatile cartridge :-) )
Any suggestions about a bullet for a long range shot , flatter trajectory ?
I heard that "ballistic tip" are good but make too much meat damage (with all the exception , of course)
thanks again to all

quote:

Originally posted by aber1911:

Any suggestions about a bullet for a long range shot , flatter trajectory?

Almost any 150 grain bullet will work well for deer-sized game -- and even larger game up to the size of elk. Since you are recoil-sensitive, I would recommend that you not go to a heavier bullet, as a heavier one will kick more. You can load the 150 grain bullets in the 30-06 to velocities as low as 2650 fps (Nosler's manual says that 47 grains of Viht N140 will give that result) with excellent accuracy. This will approximately duplicate what you would get with either the 7x57 or 7x64.

7x64

The most popular cartridge in Europe, and 2nd most popular worldwide (.30-06 is still #1).

No restriction for military classification.

Can be loaded up or down to suit near any requirement.

Takes full advantage of the CZ550 long action.

My Husqvarna in 30-06 weighs 2.8 kg and it does jump about a bit when sitting down on the range. When its touched off whilst pointing at something with a fur coat on it isn't at all difficult to control. I don't notice the recoil when in the standing or kneeling positions
I use Yugoslavian PPU 150 grain ammo. It's very accurate in the Husqvarna.
You will find the 30-06 very versatile, I recommend you have some fun with light loads get to know your rifle then work up to heavier 150 grain ones, it's enough for the game you have in mind.
Good luck.

I will buy any Mod 21 or 22 Brno for $500.00 US and the one shown for $900.00.

I believe the 7x57 is one of the greatest calibers of all time..

It is the lightest recoiling caliber that I would hunt any animal on the earth with, including elephant without hesitation..The largest animals I have personally shot with it are Eland, Cape Buffalo and Elk and it worked well...I observed an elephant shot in the heart with a 175 gr. Woodleigh solid, it bled like a stuck hog for several hundred yards and tipped right over...left a blood trail that caused flooding conditions throughout the area!

I'll go with Mr. Atkinson and the others who voted for the 7x57mm on this one. It is a fantastic round which allows the shooter to learn to shoot without pounding him, or her, to death in the process. Smallest animal I've shot with a 7x57 has been coyote, largest is elk. Enough said .... Tom Purdom

quote:

Originally posted by KurtC:

7x64

The most popular cartridge in Europe, and 2nd most popular worldwide (.30-06 is still #1).

Just for the record, I question your assertion that the 7X64 is the second most popular cartridge worldwide. In the US it is largely unknown, in favor of its twin the 280 Remington, but the 280 is way back in sales and use behind other cartridges such as the 270, the 308, and even the 7mm Rem mag. I remember Finn Aargaard writing some years ago that the 280 was rare in Africa, whereas the 270 was much used there.

This is not to say that there's anything wrong with the 7X64 or the 280 -- In my opinion this (either one) is one of the great cartridges. But I do question your assertion about its popularity.

quote:

Originally posted by aber1911:
Thanks a lot to everybody for the useful suggestions .
unfortunately I have to change caliber :-( ;
The point is that the gunshop (that owe me enough money to buy this rilfle :-( ) is giving me hard time about a 7x57 or 7x64 rifle that is not in stock and has to be ordered (it takes months ! :-( )

so i was thinking to go for a regular CZ 550 in 30.06cal. ( it is already in the shop and I want to close this "deal" soon :-( ) and "get used tu the recoil" using maybe some "anti-recoil" pad
(beside the old classic06 is a very versatile cartridge :-) )
Any suggestions about a bullet for a long range shot , flatter trajectory ?
I heard that "ballistic tip" are good but make too much meat damage (with all the exception , of course)
thanks again to all

You will not regret buying the .30-06, and unlike many it will do extremely well with reduced loads. However, with an unspecified handicap I am inclined to recommend a lighter rifle in a smaller calibre like 7X57. Both are blessed with an abundance of bullets, something that cannot be said about most other calibres.
With reduced loads in 30 calibre, I would not spend the extra money on premium bullets, they simply aren't necessary. Any 150 to 165 will work well for you in the situation described above.

LE270

The US is only a small portion of the worldwide shooting industry. It is the only country where the 7x64 is not popular. If you look at an overseas catalog such as Franconia (European version of Cabelas) you will see that the one thing in common with every rifle and cartridge manufacturer is the 7x64. Most don't load or chamber for the 7x57 any more, but the 7x64 has the most availability of any cartridge.

In the US, Ruger chambers it for export and every few years Hornady, Federal and Remington make a run of ammunition.

The .280 has a limited following in the US, but had no worldwide interest because the 7x64 was already well established.

Lutz Moeller does a good job of explaining it all here http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/7x64.html
I hope your German is not too rusty.

More useless info:

2003 Franconia katalog lists 7x64 bolt rifles available by CZ, Brno, A. Zoli, Browning, Blaser, Sauer, Swiss Arms, Sako, Steyr and Heym. The only 7x57 listed is the Ruger#1 International, which isn't even a bolt action.

As for cartridges, there are 19 listings for the 7x64 from Federal, RWS, Norma, Geco, Sako, Hirtenberger, Blaser, and Sellier & Bellot. There are only 7 listings for the 7x57 from RWS, Blaser and Sellier & Bellot.

The .30-06 leads with 26 different cartridges available. Interestingly, there are a lot of listings for the Rimmed versions of the 7x64 and 7x57, for use in singles and doubles.

K9_75: Please return my rifle! I bid on that one...

In a light rifle, the 7X57mm and the 7X64mm can BOTH be loaded to come quite close to the 7 Mag. In addition, in the 7 Mag., (or the other two for that matter), the 140-grain bullets are plenty, and with this bullet weight, these three 7's give a little LESS RECOIL than an '06 in a like-weight gun shooting 180 or heavier bullets.

In the 7X57mm, using Norma or VV powders, you can get 3000 FPS. I use Norma MRP in my 7X57mm's. You can also get over 3100 with the 140 from the 7X64mm with slow Norma or VV powders.

Either of these cartridges with 140-grain bullets at velocities over 2800 FPS loads will do fine for all Alpine game, including Hirsch, and give you the trajectory you need too! For Hirsch and Wildeschwein, use a Nosler Partition, Swift A-Frame, Barnes X, or comparable premium bullet! If you do, the 140 grain will be sufficient for them too!

Waidmanns Heil!!

quote:

Originally posted by KurtC:
The only 7x57 listed is the Ruger#1 International, which isn't even a bolt action.

But Senor! That's GOOD!!~

Posting for Chris Bekker:

The 7 x 57 mm is perhaps one of the most under-rated calibers. I know of a person who hunts eland very successful with it - in particular when combined with a premium-grade bullet, such as a 160 gr Swift A-Frame. Some American hunters have used it with success on elk. The fact is that at bushveld ranges and out to 150 yards it kills effectively (given good shot placement).

The 7 x 64 does not any kill better in the above mentioned range, in fact the extra 250 - 300 feet per second work against soft expanding bullets. Whilst more popular today in Europe, I question the basis for that as most hunters hunt from a Hochsitz. When hunting is primarily done at longer ranges such as 250 to 350 yards, the preference of higher velocity becomes a valid one. In Africa the 7 x 57 is far more popular than the 7 x 64.

I am quite surprised to read in Harald Wolf's recent article on the 7 x 57 that and I quote ... "For today's African hunting I would not use the 7 x 57 Mauser for any game bigger than blesbuck or nyala." It seems to suggest that it is only fit for the very small game species, which I cannot agree with. I have used it a lot on kudu and blue wildebeest. Then he goes further and say ... "Nowadays the 7 x 64 Brenneke is more and more replaced by the 7 mm Rem Mag, which is a stupid thing to do as there is no need for an ultra high velocity 7 mm cartridge in Europe."

I agree with his last statement and it seems to suggest to it is a matter of range ... short to medium, .... medium to long ... and long to very long-range - perhaps something like 0 - 200 yds, then 200 - 350 yds and then 350 and beyond. Ultimately it is the impact velocity that determines how the bullet will perform and that is the most critical element in the whole equation. If hunting is done 90% of the time under 200 yards, then the choice is clear cut, go for the 7 mm Mauser.

Chris

Gun / Ammunition : 7x57
Bullet : .284, 140, NOS BalTip 28140
Bullet weight : 140 grains or 9.07 grams
Muzzle velocity : 2900 fps
Crosswind speed : 5 Mph
Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1):
C1=0.485>0 fps;

Optimum trajectory information : Max. point blank range (P)=288 Yds. with a
zero range set to (X)=246 Yds. and max. ordinate above LOS at range (M)=137 Yds.

Gun / Ammunition : 7x64
Bullet : .284, 140, NOS BalTip 28140
Bullet weight : 140 grains or 9.07 grams
Muzzle velocity : 3100 fps
Crosswind speed : 5 Mph
Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1):
C1=0.485>0 fps;

Optimum trajectory information : Max. point blank range (P)=304 Yds. with a
zero range set to (X)=259 Yds. and max. ordinate above LOS at range (M)=146 Yds.

As you can see shooting a 140gr ballistic tip at max velocity for each cartridge (I use H4350 in my 7x57 to obtain 2,900fps from 139gr Interbond) you gain 16yards extra range without aiming off on a vital area of 6" diameter.

I use my 7x57 with a 200yard zero for roe - I aim 3/4 way up the chest for 250yards beyond which I do not shoot.

I am very recoil conscious - I have a 30-06 arriving and will be very interested to see if I can shoot it with full power 150gr loads.

Gidday guys.

If you are going to go for the 30-06 and load it back abit you will be right if you go for 150 gr standard projectiles like the balistic tips or the 150 gr corelocts or hotcors. Any of the premium bullets are probably going to be a bit stiff for smaller animals like the chamois and roe deer. Even the reds, fallow and pigs certainly don't need anything more at 30-06 velocities.

Got two fallow stags a couple of weeks ago with the 30-06 and 150gr corelocts. Both dropped straight away, one after being hit just in front of the hind leg with penetration through the paunch,to the boiler room and the perfect mushroom was found against the offside shoulder blade. Velocity at impact would have been around 3000fps as the range as about 25metres with my full power loads. This is the sort of performance I like.

If the impact velocity was lower penetration would have been even better.

I am also pretty lucky as I can substitute these three projectiles interchangably and they all shoot to the same point of impact. Don't know if this is particular to my rifle or not but it is very handy as I find the nosler bts work better on the chamois than the other two which give better perfomance on the big boars and stags.

Fave load is as follows:

150 gr balistic tip/coreloct/hotcor
win LR primer
53 gr IMR4064
Norma cases

This load has been chrono at 3032 for 5 shot average. It consistently shoots moa.

I am starting to use this load for everything from bunnies to deer.

Hope this of some use to you

happy hunting
Hamish

I used a 7x57 last year in Zimbabwe. 175gr Noslers and it was totally effective on Kudu out to 250 yds. It's a light custom Mauser with a Niedner steel buttplate so recoil is't much at all.

Ray
If it's a shooter it's a keeper! If not, well we'll see what happens!

Cewe
After having seen what boha's made for you I will admit to sleeping very well at night!

//K9

quote:

Originally posted by Hamish:

Fave load is as follows:

150 gr balistic tip/coreloct/hotcor
win LR primer
53 gr IMR4064
Norma cases

Just for the record, that's not a reduced load -- it is full power, likely to get more than 3000 f.p.s.

Gidday Lloyd,

Yeah you are right this is a full power load.

It is my fave but from my Remmy 700 bdl ass I said I get 3032 for a 5 shot average with all holes touching. It really pisses all my mates with 270s and 7mmrem mags off.

Flattens chamois on the spot. Only thing I think could be better would be the 6.5-06 with 100 - 120 balistic tips at 3200 - 3400 fps.


Any one care to disagree????

There isn't a lot to choose from between the 7x57 and the 7x64. I started using a 7x57 in 1965 and still use one. On the other hand, I carried a Steyr 7x64 to Africa last year as a "light rifle" and could not have been happier.
In describing the 7x64, I think everyone has missed one point, it is more nearly compared to the .270 WCF, except that the 7x64 has better bullets in factory loads than the .270. I will even go out on a limb and say that "anyone" can dominate a .270 or a 7x64, and for 95% of the world's game animals, all will fall to a good shot from a 7x64, .270, or a 7x57mm! (Dangerous species - Big 5 - not included here). The CZ 550 is a fine choice.
LLS

Both excellent calibers is the bottom line.

El deguello,
Why did you post that effigy of me on the 5th?