quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
The iron sights on my 30-06 are sighted in for Rn 220 grain bullets and they penetrate as well as 300 gr 375 bullets.
they are as good a choice today as they have ever been.

Phil,

I couldn't agree more. I've used them for years, not as extensively as you, but in a couple of 06's, a 30-40 and my 300 H&H and never had a failure. I also never recovered one.

Same here. Never recovered one. I view using 220 grain RN's as "going green" because I recycle all the copper and lead back into the Earth that gave it to me!! Think I will get an award from Our Dear Leader?? me neither.

You will get faster kills with the 150 gr. bullets on deer size game, end of story..The 180 or 200 gr.Noslers are as good as any 220 gr. bullet except perhaps for the really big stuff and even then I would opt for a 200 gr. Nosler for the biggest and baddest..

I shoot 220 gr. Noslers and Sierras in my model 95 Win. SRC 30-06..Deer run a good ways with the 220 gr. bullets, simply because of bullet construction that is intended for Moose and Bear..The 220s do not blood shoot as much as the lighter bullets and that's a big plus for me as we eat what we shoot.

I only use the 220 on deer when I am meat hunting the more open country with my 95 and iron sights and not trophy hunting, When hit,I can watch them run and at least know which direction they are traveling and that makes tracking easier..they normally run 25 to 200 yards.

I do have some old 220 gr. and 180 gr. Winchester tool and copper bullets with lots of lead exposed, that will expand on deer size game, and some of the older Silvertip 220s would open up on anything....

I have never shot a head of game however with a 220 gr. Nosler or Sierra that didn't leave and excellent blood trail..

My all time favorite all time big game bullet in the 30-06 is a 200 gr. Nosler partition at 2700 FPS, followed closely by the 180 Nosler partition. I like the same with Woodleighs..

I like the 30-06 and its actually worked for me with about all bullets from 150 to 220 gr., at least on elk, Eland, Moose and such..not bad on buffalo..and PHils used it extensively on Alaskan Brown Bear, that sez a lot about the ole girl..

Also, I would not hesitate to shoot elk, moose and such with a 150 gr. monolithic hollow point, such as the GS Customs 150 gr. HVHP....but that's a whole nuther discussion!

Interesting thread. Seems most shooters want the latest and greatest big caliber. I've been trying to mess around with 200's and 220's primarily because it is my biggest caliber. I would like to have a recepie for a dangerous game load for my two 06's. (Have a 700KS Custom Shop Mountain Rifle and a Sedgley). Hopefully some of you will share yours.

Nuts. My last rifle was a 6.5x55 swede. Old and small I'd say.

Doublegun
52 Grains of H 414 works well for my 220's both soft and Hornady solids. (50 grains of the H414 under the Barnes monolithic solid.) I have used 52.5 grains of Ramshot Hunter as well but that powder seems to have disappeared. 4350, 4831 and many others will work just fine with the 220's. Lot's of data on line.
Good luck!

Yep, love those 220s in the '06. Good stuff. I use Varget though

I have read several posts about an appropriate rate of twist in a 3006 for 220's. Given I have to live with what I have, is there a way to compensate by lowering the load?

I get the impression here that most like 220's but they need not be premium bullets.
Are your experiences with conventional heavy bullets good? If so, what velocities are we typically speaking of?

- Lars/Finland

2400-2500 FPS with 220 Hornady softs works fine.
2100 FPS or higher works with the 220 Solids.
dmw

I hunted Sitka blacktails with Leon Francisco in the late 80's on Kodiak. He had hunted his Larson Bay area since the 60's so he had some serious experience with big bears. He was a gun guy and understood ballistics, bullets etc. I asked him if hunters were still showing up with an '06 and the old 220 Corelok. He said yes and that if the hunter did his part that combo worked fine on big bears. An interesting to me side note is that Leon relied on a Sako rifle loaded with the 300 Hornady round nose as his bear back up rifle even though he had quite few rifles and loved Nosler Partitions.

Mark

A fast-moving 220gn quality bullet in an '06 is all you need for the big bruins.

A lot of wanna-bear dudes miss big time with those heavy-kicking magnums.

Some years back, I settled on the .338/300win mag as my hunting rifle of choice, living in rural AK.

Gave up the .300win mag just to be sure I never had a problem with ammunition. Still had a lot of 200gr match and btsp bullets, and a .30-06 or two. Lots of data on .30-06 AI in recent loading manuals. Was hard not to see that the AI chambering in .30-06 really shined w/heavy slugs which I had a bunch of...

Now I have a .30-06 AI and no longer miss not having a .300win mag.

Im surprised that no one who uses the 220s has mentioned that most of them are so soft they will not come close to the penetration of a 180 or 200 gr. Nosler Partition, perhaps a 220 gr. monolithic, if one exists, and for sure the 220 Nosler partition would be the exception for sure, but not by much..

It has been my experience that the 200 gr. Nosler will out penetrate any 220 gr. bullet 30 caliber soft point bullet I have used in tests and on game, again the Nosler partitions are the exceptions..but even the 180 Nosler partition will walk right on the heels of the Nosler 220, probably because the expansion of the 220 builds a larger cross section in expansion..in the box penetration was for all practical purposes equil between the two and the 200 got another two or three inches.

The Sierra, Hornadys, Speer, Corelokts, are the ones I have tried..Not saying these bullets are not killers of game up close and personal, of course they are and I use them in my Win 95 but just that they are over rated as to penetration by comparison.

Some 220s are a bit hard and deer run a good ways, but leave good blood and not much bloodshot meat..just pick your 220s with care, Sierras tend to be softer and some of the old Western bullets expand well as do early Silvertips, and corelokts always work it seems to me..I shoot them at about 2600 FPS give or take a bit.

According to my Nosler reloading manual, a 220gr Partition has a Sectional Density of .331. A 300gr. 375 Partition is .305 and a 250gr. 338 is .313. The 400gr 416 has an SD of .330

Those figures make the 220gr 308 look very respectable and actually the 160gr. 264 Woodleigh also shares the exact same SD number.

Which probably explains why the 6.5mm was highly respected in Africa for its penetration on heavy game animals during the turn of the 20th century.

I use 220s of what ever flavor I can find them in in my 03 30-06 scout rifle out of it's 18.5 inch barrel I get 2330fps.

Out of 22 inch barrel I get 2480

I shot a hogs bear and deer with them they are all dead and I can't complain. Also one running yote at 110 yards a bang flop.

The 220 didn't have a problem breaking both shoulders and leaving a good exit hole on the yote not bad performance on a 25lb animal.

Ray,
Yes the cup and core 220's are "soft." However they still work well to great and Very Consistent, as long as one does not try to combine them with hyper velocity. Moderate velocity and these bullets result in the quote below.
RE Phil: The iron sights on my 30-06 are sighted in for Rn 220 grain bullets and they penetrate as well as 300 gr 375 bullets.
they are as good a choice today as they have ever been.

Fury01,
I think that's what Ive said, if I didn't get that across its what I ment..sorry about that.

But some 220s are a bit hard for deer even though they work,and they do leave a good blood trail.

I shot them in my model 95 SRC with irons in the thick stuff above Sun Valley Id. where many shots are going away. In my 95 that's at about 2500 FPS, The work on elk and deer..I tend to use the sierra 220 gr. but the Nosler partition works good in that the front portion does expand quite well and the base goes through.

The 30-06 seems to work well enough to suit me with about everything I have shot in it and works on about any game animal. Its my no 1 all time favorite caliber I suppose.

On deer, I use the heavier bullets as they are not as explosive and destructive, and leave a good blood trail...BTW I have found this true also with the 150 gr. GS Customs HVHP, they kill great and don't spoil a lot of deer, yet the work great on elk.

I use old WW2 4831, IMR-4064, and been using H414 for the last 4 or 5 years quite a bit...My WW2 4831 gets me less pressure and about a 100 or more FPS than any powder I have ever used..

Just last month I picked up a NIB Winchester (Miroku) 1895 in .30-06, I had been looking for a .30-40 just so I could try out some 220 grain bullets on game but the .30-06 showed up. Then of course two days later I found a .30-40 for not much more but that'll have to wait now. Now I have a few boxes of .30 caliber 220 grain RN from Woodleigh, Hornady, and Nosler to test. I should get busy loading them up...

In my opinion the change in bullet weight from then until now comes mainly from what hunters were familiar with at the time.

In the past '06 shooters where transitioning from .30-40 Krags, various large bore lever rifle calibers and the like to a faster cartridge. So they were most familiar with heavy bullets. As time went on the magnum high velocity craze hit and to get it people moved to lighter bullets across the board. So the heavies have slowly lost favor regardless of there advantages in certain situations.

I've always been a heavy bullet guy and I remember once buying a 94 Winchester .30-30 from an aquantence who told me 150 grain bullets would be "best" because of their higher velocity. I chose 170's instead. To me he was missing the the point of what a .30-30 does best and it does it with a heavier bullet.

Cougarz,
I think that about sums it up. I think the lighter bullets such as the 180 gr. is probably the better choice if one expects shots out to 400 yards but a warm loaded 06 with 200 gr. bullets at 2700 FPS is just that much better, but one of the softer 220 gr. bullets is pretty awesome on deer and elk in the timber, the old timers did lean that way, and in the 30-40 that lacked the velocity it was a better choice..The 30-40 with a 220 Sierra is a deadly combination for sure and kills beyond its paper ballistics IMO..It and the 300 Savage was considered the magnums of the day and the best of elk rounds in my youth.

Ray,

I fully agree.

All of this 30-06 talk has me looking at them again too.

But I think the 180s would be my bullet today in most applications. Maybe a 200 grain Partition or AcuuBond or A Frame for something like the woods where you pretty much know you will be in close.

quote:

Originally posted by TexKD:
All of this 30-06 talk has me looking at them again too.

But I think the 180s would be my bullet today in most applications. Maybe a 200 grain Partition or AcuuBond or A Frame for something like the woods where you pretty much know you will be in close.

The 200 Partition is one of the best LONG RANGE hunting bullets in 30 caliber. And it works fantastic up close as well.

And while many ( but not all ) of the current factory 220 bullets may be softer than necessary, 220 solids, with their high SD, gives them great penetrating ability. They are the choice of a number of African elephant cullers like Mike LaGrange who uses them in a pair of M-1 Garands.

220 gr 3006 are great for hogs, especially in heavily hooded areas ...

that being CERTAINLY NOT premium bullets -- 220 hornady rn .. just smacks the snot out of them

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by TexKD:
All of this 30-06 talk has me looking at them again too.

But I think the 180s would be my bullet today in most applications. Maybe a 200 grain Partition or AcuuBond or A Frame for something like the woods where you pretty much know you will be in close.

The 200 Partition is one of the best LONG RANGE hunting bullets in 30 caliber. And it works fantastic up close as well.

And while many ( but not all ) of the current factory 220 bullets may be softer than necessary, 220 solids, with their high SD, gives them great penetrating ability. They are the choice of a number of African elephant cullers like Mike LaGrange who uses them in a pair of M-1 Garands.

Thank you Phil. I haven't spent much time with a 30-06 in the field. When I used a 30 it was a 300 WM or the 300 Weatherby. But recently I have been strongly thinking about a one-gun-use-a-lot rifle and the 30-06 got me to thinking on it more. A high quality build with a top barrels would see me the rest of my hunting days.

Right when I got the idea a month or so ago I spent a rainy weekend reading about some long range applications and various loadings etc on German Salazar's site The Rifleman's Journal. Then it whet my appetite. Then the next week it became a private blog.

I think this was summed up nicely a while back by the late and much missed Finn Aagard; "the 30-06 is never a mistake".

I suppose I'm a 30 cal. fan in my old age, Ive had the same 06 for 50 years, but last month I replaced my sold M-70 prewar 300 H&H, been lonesome and having dreaded nostalgic headaches since I sold that ole dog, so rather than aspirin I opted for a nice Rem 721 300 H&H, (love that old blue on them) and that 26 inch tube. As if that wasn't enough I up and bought myself a 5.2 lb. Kmber .308 Win...Both shoot itty bitty groups and I'm sleeping better now...

Found some brass and loaded up a batch of 200 gr. Noslers with a stiff load of old H4831 milsurp powder, pressures mild with that stuff, and velocity just breaks the 3000 FPS mark. Got that load from Jack O'Connor many years ago. It will reach out and touch elk or put them down up close.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
In my opinion the change in bullet weight from then until now comes mainly from what hunters were familiar with at the time.

In the past '06 shooters where transitioning from .30-40 Krags, various large bore lever rifle calibers and the like to a faster cartridge. So they were most familiar with heavy bullets. As time went on the magnum high velocity craze hit and to get it people moved to lighter bullets across the board. So the heavies have slowly lost favor regardless of there advantages in certain situations.

I've always been a heavy bullet guy and I remember once buying a 94 Winchester .30-30 from an aquantence who told me 150 grain bullets would be "best" because of their higher velocity. I chose 170's instead. To me he was missing the the point of what a .30-30 does best and it does it with a heavier bullet.

Also, the light bullets of the time, weren't as capable as the light bullets of today.

a 150-160 grain TSX in a 30-06 will kill everything in AK with no issue. And completely penetrate a moose, and probably all but the biggest of bears.

The same couldn't be said about expanding bullets in the 30's and 40's

I shot moose with the 06 and 220 rn core lokts. Frontal chest shot and a nickel size hole through a scapula with the bullet lost in the rumen and never recovered. A second shot broke his back as he turned to flee back into the swamp but he never made it. Two great breaths and he was gone.

There is a lot of momentum in those bullets at moderate velocity and rn bullets hit game like a train.

This is not a comment on the .30-06 and light bullets VS the heavy 220's, but I have loaded the 220 NP in one of my .300 magnums for bear.

Rather, it is a comment on old vs new bullet technology.

I've used a .45-70 a lot in various rifles and configurations. And I've used the same bullets in .458 Win Mags.

On one occasion I shot a very good black bear at 70 yards frontally in the chest using a 465gr hardcast with a flat tip, leaving the muzzle of an NEF single-shot at 1900 fps. Impact was slightly over 1700 fps. The bear dropped so quickly in the tall grass that I momentarily lost sight of him as the rifle came out of recoil. He never moved 1-inch from where he was shot.

The other incident involved another bear at 95 yards that also was shot frontally in the chest under the chin. The load was a 350gr TSX at 2750 fps from my CZ550 .458 Win Mag. Impact velocity was over 2400 fps, and the bear, about 2/3's the size of the other, ran in a semi-circle about 75 yards. All indications were that the "new" technology all metal bullet never expanded.

Conditions were similar, hits were identical and the "cheap" all-lead bullet out-performed the high-tech one! It was no contest! By the way both bullets made exit from the animals.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
In my opinion the change in bullet weight from then until now comes mainly from what hunters were familiar with at the time.

In the past '06 shooters where transitioning from .30-40 Krags, various large bore lever rifle calibers and the like to a faster cartridge. So they were most familiar with heavy bullets. As time went on the magnum high velocity craze hit and to get it people moved to lighter bullets across the board. So the heavies have slowly lost favor regardless of there advantages in certain situations.

I've always been a heavy bullet guy and I remember once buying a 94 Winchester .30-30 from an aquantence who told me 150 grain bullets would be "best" because of their higher velocity. I chose 170's instead. To me he was missing the the point of what a .30-30 does best and it does it with a heavier bullet.

Also, the light bullets of the time, weren't as capable as the light bullets of today.

a 150-160 grain TSX in a 30-06 will kill everything in AK with no issue. And completely penetrate a moose, and probably all but the biggest of bears.

The same couldn't be said about expanding bullets in the 30's and 40's

True enough.

I happen to believe that certain animals and certain situations determine the weight of the bullet. Some critters are more effected by heavy bullets especially at close range. Others expire more dramatically to lighter high velocity bullets especially at extended ranges. Deer being a great example of this.

I agree, you can shock deer and pronghorn Antelope etc. to death with a light fast as hell bullet such as a 22-250 or 220 Swift and others, but shock means nada to Moose and Cape Buffalo and a host of others, they only understand big holes and blood loss short of brain and spine shots..