The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles 338/06 vs 35 WhelenGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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One of Us |
I know this has been debated several times, but I wanted to ask the question based on the spot I'm trying to fill within my rifle battery. I'm getting rid of my 300 UMAG, to much recoil, to long of a barrel. So, the 338/06 or 35 Whelen, will sit between a .308 Winchester and a 375 H&H. Game: Elk, Moose, Brown Bear, Plainsgame Shots: To 400 yards "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | ||
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Night and day! 45-70 vs. 22-250 is closer. On deer at least. | |||
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Went with the standard 338/06, I've hunted this round for over 10 years and it hammers like nothing I've seen! Easy to load for also. _____________________ Steve Traxson | |||
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I feel that you have a better selection of bullets in the 338 caliber than you do in the 35 caliber. I also went with the standard 338/06 because i have not seen enough difference in velocity, in this parent case to justify the extra steps in reloading the AI version. | |||
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I voted for the 338-06AI..mainly because I have two that I use a lot..and inspite of what folks say, I like the extra velocity and no I am not hot rodding it...I use Nosler data for the standard 338-06 and my velocity exceeds their max even though I am only at the middle of the loads they list.. If I had it to do over and only had a standard reamer, I would not feel under-gunned with the standard 338-06. The standard chambering would be fine with me... That all being said, I have had a couple of 35 Whelens..still have one too...but it seems like it gets left behind a lot... It has killed a pile of deer and hogs..and does so with authority...but the 338-06 is just more shootable and versatile for me... Just my 2 cents worth... Z | |||
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I think that if you stated "shots to 100 yards" you might get a different answer. But by stating "shots to 400 yards" you rule out the Whelen. | |||
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Seems folks are close to concensus.....standard .338-06 It continues to surprise me that folks even consider the "AI" version....they are absolute jokes! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Thanks folks! I was thinking about the 300 H&H for a while, but the -06 parent case is more practical. This is going to be either be built on a old Mauser or Enfield action. Barrel length? 24"? "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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one of us |
22" -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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you can hit full velocity with 22" with lighter bullets? "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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| One of Us |
24"....it will give you greater velocity and so a few extra yards longer range without the need for holdover. | |||
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| one of us |
I have a 22" 338-06 built on a commercial FN Mauser action. I like it. (also have a pre-64 M70 .338 Win Mag for the long reach.) Did find that it was necessary to neck 30-06 up to .366" before sizing and fireforming. This eliminates the chance of headspacing issues. Mike -------------- DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ... Knifemaker, http://www.mstarling.com | |||
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If I need more than a .30 caliber I would go straight to 9.3 or .375. That said you ought to just get a .300 Holland and shoot 200s. | |||
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I am unabashedly a 338-06 fan. I would choose a barrel length that you like. Some people like 22, some 24, some shorter, some longer. I seem to have a preference for 23" lately, but that's just my preference. So build a 338-06 in the rifle style you like and you will not be disappointed. It is a very good, albeit not commercially popular cartridge. If you don't know exactly what that style is, wait until you do. I think Remington screwed up when they introduced the Whelen. I think they should have introduced the 338-06. then they would have a 338 caliber cartridge to compete with the 338 WM. A well loaded 338-06 is very versatile and capable of taking anything NA and most of Africa has to offer. | |||
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I have both rifles and the Whelen is just plain cool! That said I'll probably hunt more with the .338-06, I've got 200 grain Hornady bullets approaching 2900 fps. I'm not doing that with my Whelen, but then again I'm just shooting factory ammunition in it. Flip a coin you will be happy with either. | |||
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The 338-06 can not compete with the 338 Win Mag, end of story. The 30-06 can not compete with the 300 H&H/300 Win Mag/300 Weatherby Mag, again, end of story. The 338-06 and 35 Whelen are both good, capable big game rounds, the difference in the two can not be measured by the average hunter. Pick which ever one you like and go with it, but one is not that much better than the other. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I don't see any mention of 338 WM or 30-06, 300 anything in the title. And the statement about the 30-06...that's a slouch of cartridge you know.  | |||
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Are cost and reloading the main issues folks prefer the 338-06 over the 338-06 AI? If I used new 338-06 AI brass (and reloaded) does that negate the disadvantages? "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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One of Us |
To be different, I went with the 338-06AI version with a new 24" barrel on a Sako m75 Greywolf "IV-action" rifle. As for brass, I use new Norma or Weatherby (made by Norma) headstamped 338-06 A-Square then fireform with medium/hot loads for the AI. Love the caliber. Very low felt recoil shooting 225gr Accubonds and TTSX's. My 270WSM has more felt recoil with 140gr Accubonds. | |||
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one of us |
I own both. Here's my 2cents. I find the 338-06, much more finicky to load for than the 35 Whelen. The particular 338-06 rifle I have a Mauser 98 with Douglas barrel took much longer to find the sweeet spot, than with the Whelen. Also, I have never been able to get the velocities that many of you "quote" here, even though I had a 25.5" barrel on the 338. As far as the BC advantage the 338 bullet has, it has been negated, by the fact I have not been able to drive them fast enough to overtake the 35's out of the Whelen. I think the 338-06 is a good cartridge, it my be the perfect cartridge for the "paper arguments" we see here all the time. Of the "big" critters that have been shot while I was around the hunt, the Whelen has been spectacular, on elk, and also buffalo. We have been driving the 250 grain bullet out of the Whelen right at or near 2700fps, and when a Partition bullet hits a buffalo broadside @ about 100 yds, all you hear is bang fwap, zing. As the bullet continues thru the critter and across the Kansas Prairie. As others have said choose your poison. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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9.3x62!  Good hunting, Andy ----------------------------- Thomas Jefferson: “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” | |||
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| one of us |
I like the .338-06, if the .35 Whelen had a twist that would handle 280-300 grain bullets, there would be an advantage on bigger game, but you'd just as well have a 9.3x62 then. The .338 has better availability of bullets, shoots 210's at 27-2800 fps or 250's at 2400-2500, a modern .318 which has been proven over and over as a killer. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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| One of Us |
One of the things I like about the Whelen is that many bullets in that caliber were designed specifically with the Whelen velocity in mind. In 338 caliber, many of the bullets were designed with the 338 WM in mind. Of course many of those bullets work fine in the 338-06, but there is some advantage to the Whelen because the bullet manufacturers were thinking of the Whelen during the bullet design process. With that being said, I don't think it is such a big difference. For example, I also shoot a 8mm-06 even though many of the bullets I would want to shoot were designed for the 8mm Remington magnum. There are still plenty of bullets soft enough for the 8mm-06. | |||
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I voted whelen AI, cause I have one. I have to redo the loads for it, when my step-father owned he was getting chronographed 2810 (average of 7 shots chrono'd) with a 225g sierra game king. Problem is he doesn't remember the load other than it was 4064, and I can't find where it was written down so I'll have to work back at it. Mine's on a 1917 remington with a 26" douglas tube. I read an article, my step-father still has it, where a gun writer calculated the most "efficient" cartridges, the 35 whelen AI was I think one of the 2 or 3 most efficient (what you get for powder burned). Is it a 400yd rifle though? Not in my hands at least. if you want a 400yd gun in a standard length action I'd immediately go with the 358 Norma. Red | |||
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I would argue that "most" 35 Whelens do have a 1:10 or 1:12 twist rate. Remember the 35 Whelen was around for 65 years as a wildcat before Remington put their name on it in 1987 and selected a stupid twist rate. Barstooler | |||
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Uuuuu....did you bother to read his original post. He already has a .375. Barstooler | |||
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Barstooler's right about the Whelen twist. Mine's 1x12, I can't imagine anyone building a Whelen with a 1X16 today, knowing what we all know. I also don't get this bullet selection argument, I still contend most guys work up loads for one, maybe two bullets and call it good, after that they go to a differnt rifle. Just paper arguments. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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One of Us |
If you seriously think about hunting at 400 yards, and list what is listed in the poll, i seriously think you do not know what you are up to. At that range, you want more velocity to work agains wind drift. Unless you always hunt in dead still weather. And, shorter than 24 inches, why? A thumper, long rage shooter and a brushgun in the same rifle, sooorry mate! Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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Easy, stalk 100 yards closer and use the Whelen! | |||
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| One of Us |
Between those cartridges I can't see any significant differences and voted for what I have, .338-06. Love this class of cartridge, but here are better cartridges for 400yd shooting. My solution is to just get in a bit closer. Then make sure there is nothing standing behind your target, because the bullet is going through. I'm amazed by the penetration. Dean ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, Duke of York | |||
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I don't know, but a .338-06 at 400 yards you should still have around 2K fps and 2K ft-lbs of energy if you can drive a 200 grain bullet at 2800 fps MV. Seems to me the bullet would be up to the task if the nut behind the trigger is. Can't see a Moose or Elk standing up to a solid hit from that. It would be stretching my range that is for sure but I'd be comfortable at 300 yards that is for sure. | |||
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You are trying to fill the slot between 308 and 375, the 338-06 lies pretty much in the middle of those parameters. If you want to use 250gr and heavier bullets, the 375 is probably going to be a much better choice. I have always felt that if you want/need to shoot bullets above 250gr, the 06 case just doesn't hold enough powder. | |||
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To which I fully agree.....but don't tell that to the guys that use the .308 case for .338 and .358 diameter bullets. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Yeah, I know. Just my opinion of course. Others mileage may very.  Higher velocity kills farther, bigger diameter kills better. Like what you shoot, shoot what you like, but most importantly, hit what you are aiming at. Shot placement relegates all other discussions to secondary importance. | |||
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one of us |
I love my 338-06, but it is NOT a 400yd gun IMO, neither is the WHelen., The bullets jsut don;t perform as they need to IMO. Velocity drops off quite a bit. I hunt w/ the 210grNP almaost exclusively in mine @ 2750fps. At 400yds the bullets just don't open like I like, maybe a lighter constructed bullet would do better, but 350yds is my max range & that is even pushing it IMO. Mine is a Ruger w/ McGowen bbl & it's been pretty picky about what it likes, but it does love the 210grNP@ 2750fps or any 250gr bullet @ 2550fps.
Yes but not for 400yd shooting. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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The "400" figure in this presented a problem for me in any necked up '06! However, I voted for the Whelen because it is such an outstanding round when handloaded. I would go with the 338Win for shots over 300. (Which I seldom ever have the opportunity to take.) In politics as in theology! "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, But the heart of the fool to the left." Ecclesiastes 10:2 | |||
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I'll choose the red head every time! Fred, I never said it was an ideal 400 yard round just that it should work as long as the guy on the trigger was up to it. Your load is still above 2K fps and energy at 400. Nosler states that the Partition will work properly above 1800 fps and seems that everyone like at least 1500 ft-lbs for elk. May not be perfect but it should work IMO. It has more energy and about the same velocity as an 06 with a 180 at 400, and I wondery how many elk have been taken at that range with the 06? | |||
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| one of us |
I've got a 338-06AI turnbolt and a 35 Whelen pump gun. I don't think either could be called a 400 yard rifle. When loading 250gr solid copper Barnes bullets in each, there's not much of a difference. If my 375 H&H was out of commission, I'd begrudgingly chose the Whelen for brown bear, but that's only cause the Rem 7600 is a faster repeater. Which might be helpful if things get dicey. I don't see a glaring error choosing any of your 4 choices, as long as you're not tied down to factory loads...those Rem Whelen loads are quite anemic. Something like the 338 Hawk/Scovill, which remedies the overly long case neck of all your poll choices might be a better option: Link to Z-hat custom Cartridge OAL is the same. See the difference?  | |||
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Think I'll chime back in on this 400 yd deal. I have yet to shoot any GAME animal at that distance. Even my shots on antelope have been under 200 yds. I have shot a number of elk, and the longest shot was 225 yds. That one would have been a lot closer, but I hit a tree on the first shot, my screw up, and that put him running. Made the shot anyway with the Whelen one shot and down. Are most of you guys who talk about these long shots, really seeing an opportunity to pop an elk at that range, or just trying to cover the possibility? I don't believe there is an advantage with either the 338 or 35-06 at those kind of ranges, Just my 02. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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