Are we agreed the 9.3x74R is in the Dangerous Game category? I"ll accept is on the lower end of the DG realm; but I think its acceptable, especially by today's standards of hunting where a PH is right next to you.

Id agree its not exactly a charge stopper like a 577NE; but I think the lighter recoil and lighter rifles may negate the need, if a better shot is made in the first place.

Its not my first choice for Elephant or even Hippo (on land); but I THINK for Cats or even possibly Buff with a PH standing ready, it seems sufficient?

Now I say all this having a 9.3x74R and wanting a 500NE for DG; but I remember thinking when I bought the 9.3 that it would be fine for dangerous game.

I have a 9.3X62 mauser which is very similar to your DR. If I were to hunt Africa as planned in 2013 and had just enough money for the safari but not for a DR, I would be comfortable with the 9.3 because I shoot well with it and even off hand at a club shoot I beat most of the guys using 223s & 7mm08s!!

Frontal brain shot on elephant would be tricky...

just my thought ...no experience yet!

Good luck.

I would consider the 9.3mm round is suitable for all DG 95% of the time.
So far worked for me 100%.
All you have to do is ask your self if you believe in Murphy's Law?

I consider it a Class I DGR. Under really good conditions it will do the job handily. However, when the conditions are not ideal, you definitely need a more heavily armed PH backing you up. On a calm, unalarmed buffalo, two good shots would put him down but if he's angry . . .

the 9,3 is the BOTTOM of the DGR rounds .. like 223 on deer, it can work, in good conditions.

that being said, i would NOT hunt lion, hippo, rhino, or elephant.. nor, likely giraffe, with such a small caliber.

I'm surprised that the real Africa experts have not chimed in here. I don't think they would see the 9.3x74 as an acceptable big 5 gun.

I sure as hell would not want to face down a tuskless charge with a 9.3x74. If you don't believe it, ask MJines. He knows from close range.

The .375 is the bare minimal for dangerous game, but the .450-400 is the minimal for elephant I would think.

I personally want a .450 or bigger for DG.

I would use it for the cats, buffalo, hippo in water, but I don't think I have the Balls for Elephant with it. JMO as I used 416 Taylor - Elephant, 375 - Buffalo, 416 Taylor - Hippo, 450/400 - Lion and 338 - Leopard.

Just a question for the experts, but which is better in the long run for any hunting, not just DG?

Shooting what some might consider a "Marginal" caliber really accurately and confidently or shooting something that you are leery of pulling the trigger of?

I don't know about Africa, but, here in North America, the 9.3x74R and it's rimless counterpart the 9.3x62 strike me as ideal for the dangerous game we have here, Grizzlies and also for Moose and Elk in heavy timber.

I load mine with Nosler 286 Pts. and also Hornady 286 Sp.s and have lots of RWS and other Euro bullets, which I reserve for practice, load development and Mule-Whitetail Deer. I am very enthusiastic about these two rounds when so loaded.

My 9.3x62 loads give the 286NP close to 2500 fps-mv. and my .375H&H loads give the 300 NP 2400-2550fps-mv averaging my three 9.3s and my two .375s. From memory, my fastest 300NP-.375H&H load was 2600 fps from one of my P-64 Mod. 70s with their 25" bbls and all of these seem about "equal" to me.

My 20" P-64-.375H&H- Grizzly gun, gives 2400 fps-mv with the 300 NP and this cannot hit harder, really, than my 9.3-286NP at 2475 fps-mv. In the rifles I hunt and bushwhack with, the 9.3 and .375 H&H loads I use are much the same and I tend to prefer the 9.3s for these uses and do not worry that I am using "less power", YMMV.

There really isn't a conflict. Contrary to many shooter's expectations, appropriate (Class II or III) DGR's don't have to be uncomfortable to shoot. They do require some range time to get used to and sighting them in off the bench is best done with a stout magnum rest or a shoulder full of sandbags. However, once the beast is grouping on the money at the desired range, say 70 yards, you leave the bench and never return. No hours spent massaging out MOA groups, no swaggering machismo about how much pain you can tolerate. Just stand on your hind legs and shoot like a man. And if you can do five shots rapid fire at the range without flinching, you're ready.

Personally, I find my .375 and my .404 easy to shoot, even wearing a tee-shirt and I'm one who avoids pain wherever possible! So it isn't a choice between 'marginal' and 'flinch-able'. Prepare ahead of time and learn to shoot. That's all. After all, when you are facing down one unhappy pot roast, you know you won't feel the recoil!

As K Bell hunted lots of elephants with much smaller 7x57 there should be nothing on earth not going down with a 9,3x74R with a good shot placement. Just the question if it is legal in some countries to hunt DG with it or not, and You won´t have much reserves maybe, but... Hit it right and it should drop!

Klaus

I have had a number of clients use them on Cape Buffalo and they work Ok for that, the buff normaly cover quit a few yards after being shot. I would guess about 150 yards average, much the same as a 338, 375 or 9.3x62..

I had one fellow on one of these blogs go into convulsions and ranted to the effect if a buff can run 150 yards before dieing then he had plenty of time to come and getcha! Hmmmmm, probably applies to a 577 or 600 N.E. also was my reply, in which case I suggest stiking on in hiw eyeball..

The only replacement for good shooting is prayer not caliber, but I have found I can do both at the same time...

I have one cape buff with my 9,3x74R.

The buff was facing me and he took a 286gr Woodleigh Soft, just about center chest.
He was down and dead in less than 40 yards.

I shot a cow elephant, side brain shot, at 5 yards.
The 286gr Woodleigh Solid went totally through the elephants head.

I also shot a Giraffe, body shots, two 286gr Woodleigh Solids did the deed.
My 286gr bullets are going about 2225fps.

Well handled, the 9,3x74R will get the job done.

It has also worked great for me on all manner of plains game as well as black bear, deer and pigs.

The 9,3x74R is one of my favorite calibres.

quote:

Originally posted by EDELWEISS:
Are we agreed the 9.3x74R is in the Dangerous Game category? I"ll accept is on the lower end of the DG realm; but I think its acceptable, especially by today's standards of hunting where a PH is right next to you.

Id agree its not exactly a charge stopper like a 577NE; but I think the lighter recoil and lighter rifles may negate the need, if a better shot is made in the first place.

Its not my first choice for Elephant or even Hippo (on land); but I THINK for Cats or even possibly Buff with a PH standing ready, it seems sufficient?

Now I say all this having a 9.3x74R and wanting a 500NE for DG; but I remember thinking when I bought the 9.3 that it would be fine for dangerous game.

If we accept fact that .375H&H is adequate then the 9,3x74 is < adequate.

Paolo,
"If we accept fact that .375H&H is adequate then the 9,3x74 is < adequate."

How do you reach that conclusion?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:


The only replacement for good shooting is prayer not caliber, but I have found I can do both at the same time...

Agreed, and very, very, neatly put. Add in adequate penetration and a good bullet, and I suspect ones' worries would be the sort only the Fates could put right.

The one drawback to the theory everyone likes to lay out there for determining cartridge adequacy for DG...that "hit it right" and it will die, MAY be....

Yeh, therein lies the rub. "Hitting it right" comes from lots of good things happening simultaneously, i.e.

-Having a good accurate rifle AND load, when fired from whatever physical position one may find himself in at the instant(s) of the shot(s),

-Using a bullet which will continue straight on the path from the original striking point to the vital organs, the injury/destruction of which will cause the animal SUDDEN (not just eventual) death,

-Being presented an angle toward the animal which makes good impact placement possible, AND recognizing where the bullet should strike the animal when delivered from that angle,

-Being a good enough shooter with that rifle and that cartridge to put the bullet where required,

-Being able to put the shot where needed in 3 seconds or less, sometimes MUCH less,

-Being adept enough at working the gun to deliver very quick and accurate follow-up rounds, if needed,

Having a rifle dependable enough in function that it does not EVER mechanically fail when you need it most,

Having enough confidence and self-control to not panic if things appear they may be going wrong, and

-a whole host of other considerations.

Only when all those requirements are met can one really determine whether a cartridge is "enough" for DG.

As a result of those considerations, I tend to prefer a cartridge and rifle which is not marginal. So, if I were going to hunt DG tomorrow, I would not take my 9.3x74R DR as first choice. I'd take my .404 Jeffery bolt gun with one up and three down. More power, more rounds, more potential accuracy. The rest would be "More practice" on my part.

Lack of meeting any of those criteria may result in two deaths, not just one. That's why they call it Dangerous Game.

My take on it, YMMV

One of "Pondoro" Taylors favourites for D-G was his .350 Rigby[singleshot] with rather pedestrian 225gn@2625mv.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
One of "Pondoro" Taylors favourites for D-G was his .350 Rigby[singleshot] with rather pedestrian 225gn@2625mv.

Yes but most of us are not Pondoro Taylor (or WDM Bell), and although the game animals may still be the same in size and structure, both their habits and the environments they are hunted in have changed since either of them was hunting DG.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

Yes but most of us are not Pondoro Taylor (or WDM Bell), and although the game animals may still be the same, both their habits and the environments they are hunted in have changed since he was hunting DG.

So is there a scale/formula as to what size cartridge to use in relation to ones skill level?
ie; the less skill one has the larger the cartridge recommendation....?

Gail Selby & Bells 7x57.

I didn't say there was such a scale for substituting cartridge size for meeting all the other criteria, and I don't believe there is. I actually think it is foolish to even try to think in such terms.

I do think a person needs to try to get as close to having all the criteria I listed, and probably a lot more too, met to the level of their own comfort.

Once that is done, their future experiences in the field hunting DG tell them whether they are still comfortable with that decison or not. If they are not, then they probably need to take some more steps toward getting comfortable or quit doing it. A bigger cartridge may have nothing to do with their added comfort level.

For my own comfort level I step up to the .404, because I have one, handle it as least as well as my 9.3x74R DR, and because I have more confidence that the 400 grain .423" diameter bullets are suited to breaking heavy bones to get to the boiler room of DG than are the 286 gr. or lighter bullets of the 9.3 x anything.

(A 9.3 x 64 may proove its equal, but having not ever fired the "x 64" at game, I have no first hand knowledge that it is. I'd have to see it to believe it.)

9.3x74r and 9.3x64B are about same case capacity.
so modern loaded in a strong single shot,9,3x74r will do 286gn@2650.
9.3x64B and 375h&h are considered equivalent performers.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
9.3x74r and 9.3x64B are about same case capacity.
so modern loaded in a strong single shot,9,3x74r will do 286gn@2650.
9.3x64B and 375h&h are considered equivalent performers.

I would not feel as confident in the reliability of a DR loaded as hot with the 9.3x74R as I regularly load my 9.3x62 Mausers. Apparently the factories don't either, as they generally seem to load the 9.3x74R to about 100 f.p.s. less muzzle velocity than the 9.3x62 rimless with the same bullets....unless things have changed a good deal in the last few years.

And having owned a number of .375 H&H Flanged rifles, I do not consider the 9.3x74R their equal either...and the .375 Flanged does not equal the standard .375 H&H belted rimless nitro, and dosn't come near the .404 Jeffery which would make ME feel comfortable in pursuit of dangerous game.

I also do not feel either the 9.3x62 Mauser or the 9.3x74R has anywhere near the equivalent performance of a 9.3x64 Brenneke loaded just as hot. Burn more powder at the same pressure level for a greater amount of propellant gas, and one gets more performance from having more gas pressure "under the curve". Simple physics.

As to using a hot loaded single shot for that purpose, why? If one has a more powerful rifle (like a .375 H&H mag) which he handles just as well and which will hold at least 4 rounds (3 down, 1 up) why handicap himself when he is first getting live experience with DG?

But, as I said above, a person needs to try (use) whatever HE feels comfortable with. I don't care if it is a .308 Winchester for THEM.

I only suggest he try to meet all the criteria listed above, not that he use the cartridge I would use. Murphy is alive and well, and the more marginal the rifle and cartridge used against DG are in respect of those criteria, the greater the chance of an adverse outcome.

Gentlemen, I can only report on what I have actually done.

If you read my above post you will see that my 286 gr loads are doing @2225fps, out of my 9,3x74R double rifle. I have killed a LOT of game with this double and these loads out to as far as a little over 300 yards.

Most of these shots were filmed.

I feel ANYTHING that I could do with a 375 H&H Magnum [a great cartridge], I HAVE done with my 9,3x74R loads. And since I am a double rifle kind of guy I prefer the double over a bolt rifle.

Now a 450/400 IMHO is a BIGGER hammer than the 9,3/375... And I do believe that the 450/470's are a little bigger hammer than the 450/400, and 416's....

The bottom line is, how much of a gun/how many guns, can you afford, and how much recoil can you take????

AND HOW good do you shoot???

For most clients, I think the best choice for your primary big bore double rifle is a 450/400.
If you are going to concentrate on elephants then a 450/470 is worth a look.

The NICE think about a 9,3x74R double is that it is an excellent plains game rifle if most of your shots will be @200 yards with 300 yards max, if you have practiced, with a bigger 400 or 450 and up double, as primary for the bigger game.

The 9,3 can step up to the plate for the bigger stuff if necessary.

And the 9,3x74R works great for deer, wild pigs, coyotes, turkeys, black bear, elk, moose, beaver, bobcats, etc., while you are in between African trips.

And you are getting double rifle practice/experience.

I have killed more coyotes here in Texas with my 9,3 and my 450 No2 doubles than I have with bolt rifles...

Why??? Because I have hunted with them a BUNCH...

quote:

Because I have hunted with them a BUNCH...

And therein lies the crux of the matter. The more experienced the hunter, the less he/she is dependent on the quality of the cartridge. For those of us whose field time is limited by circumstances, a bigger rifle is suggested. I love my .375 but on DG prefer my .404 and since the last buff I shot scared the snot out of me, I will likely take my .450 on any succeeding trip! Being a man who appreciates both belts and suspenders . . .

Dang it, its only good if you can shoot..I found that true with the 505 gibbs also!

As I see it the 9.3x74R is one of those on the cusp cartridges. Its on the heavy side for NON Dangerous Game and on the light side for (Thick Skin) Dangerous Game. I think with proper placement and a PH as back-up; its probably ok (given a whole bunch of variables).

Im not planning on Buff for my up coming Safari, so it will be fine on Plains Game. Im in the earliest of planning for a DG Safari for 2014 and still have to add a Heavy DR (500NE vs 577NE). At this stage I'll likely take the 9.3 along as a "lite" rifle.

Till then the 9.3x74R will be fine for Boar and Black Bear here in the States.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

I also do not feel either the 9.3x62 Mauser or the 9.3x74R has anywhere near the equivalent performance of a 9.3x64 Brenneke loaded just as hot. Burn more powder at the same pressure level for a greater amount of propellant gas, and one gets more performance from having more gas pressure "under the curve". Simple physics....

...As to using a hot loaded single shot for that purpose, why? If one has a more powerful rifle (like a .375 H&H mag) which he handles just as well and which will hold at least 4 rounds (3 down, 1 up) why handicap himself when he is first getting live experience with DG? [quote]

A good number of the less experienced folk [on DG], would be better off with a lighter more nimble-better-handling-less recoiling 9,3x62.
The field performance difference between a modern well loaded 9.3x62 mauser and the .375hh aint nothing exceptional or to jump over the moon about, the 375 was never a legendary DG killer, just a legendary all rounder for Africa....if anything the 375H&H offers more range,if some requires that extra range, and is comfortable with the extra recoil & rifle weight, fine.[Personally I've had my fill of the more cumbersome long magnum action dropbox rifles.]

I have loaded for and shot all three of the 9.3s mentioned here and the Otto Bock original is the best of the bunch for many practical reasons.

I have three 9.3x62, one 9.3x74R and no 9.3x64B rifles and I hate handloading the long, rimmed, fragile 74R case. While the capacity may well be equal to the Brenneke case, the comparative fragility of the case will NOT allow loading it to equal preformance in ANY action for HUNTING ammo. as you WILL get spilt necks galore and this is a "no no" in ANY hunting scenario.

Here in BC, where encounters with aggressive Grizzlies are a commonplace aspect of hunting, one NEEDS a rifle-cartridge that WILL function perfectly EVERY time and a Mauser with the 9.3x62 loaded with a 286NP at 2450ish WILL meet that criteria and give you one more shot in a rifle the same size as the Brenneke, thus, my choice is the old Bock round.

I like DRs and have almost bought one several times, but, they are not a very practical rifle for all-around BC hunting and I am not an African hunter, so, that is my experience on this issue.

Dewey,the cartridge in question is the 9.3x74. Yes, there are or maybe better cartridges, but the discussion was about the 74R.

The 9,3x74R will deliver 286gn at just below 2400mv from drillings and doubles.
Like the 405win and 45/70, 9.3x74r can be reliably & effectively loaded substantially hotter in strong single shots.
People were also telling me 45colt brass was no good for my FA 454 casull,... Id tried my darndest to discover the truth in that, so i set forth to punish/break that "fragile" brass with repeated reloads in the 60,000 CUP region,...never had a failure or difficult extraction with that straight walled .45colt case.

Not all 9.3x74r brass is the same.
RWS brass is thick & tougher, Norma is softer, S&B is thin and brittle.
Ive heard several complaints from Norma users , nothing but good reports from RWS users.

--------------------

I prefer DRs too, but the subject was a 9.3x74R double for dangerous game. And I still would rather use my current bolt gun in .404 for DG than any double ever made in 9.3x74R. For that matter, I would prefer either of my previous matching pair of 10.75x68 Mausers.

I've owned as many doubles as most of the individuals here, including in .375 H&H Flanged, .450./.400, .450 Nitro, .500/.450, .470, .577 Nitro, and a number of others. Given any one of those rifles back in my possession, I would chose a double over my current .404. But compared to a 9.3x74 double, which I DO still currently have, I'll use my .404 for DG thank you very much.

Edelweiss asked for opinions, and that is mine.

Chc, true, however since several other posters commented on other rounds, I thought that I might also do so, given that I have some experience with these in big game country.

Trax, I get an easy 2400 fps with the 286NP in RWS brass in my Merkel 96K, a 1984 vintage gun and this gives consistent .6" three shot groups and hits precisely the same poi as the RWS factory 285 gr. H-Mantel load. I have never found Norma brass for this cartridge to be as stout as RWS and the Hornady brass I have for my P-64 .300H&H seems a tad less tough as well...and, after four of these rifles in that chambering since the late '80s and hundreds of loads made and shot, I consider this another "problem child" much like the 74R where handloading is concerned.

So, unless you have some super brass that I am nmot familiar with, perhaps, Horneaber(?), I can only reiterate that you will experience multiple case failures if you load to the levels you suggest. But, whatever, it's your rifle, your brass and supposedly, " a free country".

Dewey - I wish I could move back. There is no way my wife will ever move back voluntarily because of the winters. And without our combined incomes and mad monies, there is no way I could afford another decent place to live, here or there. At my age I could not work for salary, so I will have to squeeze my pension and investment nickels carefully, and live here...much as I would prefer almost anywhere in either the Kootenays or up in the Yellowhead pass area, or Alberta, or Saskatchewan...so long as it wasn't a big city.

You take care now, my friend. Have a good hunt this fall and write my name on some birchbark, then use it as tinder to start your campfire. That way at least a bit of me will return to that beautiful earth.

AC

quote:

Personally, I find my .375 and my .404 easy to shoot, even wearing a tee-shirt

Sarge, thats exactly what i was wearing when I had the opportunity to shoot my first .375 H&H, with 235, 270 & 300gr loads, and those loads were pretty much bordering on max. I really did discover how tolerable a .375 can actually be to shoot and i think that 90% of people with a bit of training can be taught how to shoot this calibre quite proficiently. I'm of avarage build as well.

On average, I would bet shooters of a 9,3 calibre rifle (bolt or double) inspire a bit more initial confidence from the PH than guys who show up with something .450 and over. I'll bet most unproven clients are viewed with some suspicion (and many quite rightly) when a brand new shiny big bore double comes out of the rifle case on day one.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Gentlemen, I can only report on what I have actually done.

If you read my above post you will see that my 286 gr loads are doing @2225fps, out of my 9,3x74R double rifle. I have killed a LOT of game with this double and these loads out to as far as a little over 300 yards.

Most of these shots were filmed.

I feel ANYTHING that I could do with a 375 H&H Magnum [a great cartridge], I HAVE done with my 9,3x74R loads. And since I am a double rifle kind of guy I prefer the double over a bolt rifle.

Now a 450/400 IMHO is a BIGGER hammer than the 9,3/375... And I do believe that the 450/470's are a little bigger hammer than the 450/400, and 416's....

The bottom line is, how much of a gun/how many guns, can you afford, and how much recoil can you take????

AND HOW good do you shoot???

For most clients, I think the best choice for your primary big bore double rifle is a 450/400.
If you are going to concentrate on elephants then a 450/470 is worth a look.

The NICE think about a 9,3x74R double is that it is an excellent plains game rifle if most of your shots will be @200 yards with 300 yards max, if you have practiced, with a bigger 400 or 450 and up double, as primary for the bigger game.

The 9,3 can step up to the plate for the bigger stuff if necessary.

And the 9,3x74R works great for deer, wild pigs, coyotes, turkeys, black bear, elk, moose, beaver, bobcats, etc., while you are in between African trips.

And you are getting double rifle practice/experience.

I have killed more coyotes here in Texas with my 9,3 and my 450 No2 doubles than I have with bolt rifles...

Why??? Because I have hunted with them a BUNCH...

What N E 450 No2 said. I have a flanged .375 double and a 9,3X74 double and I wouldn't hesitate to leave camp with either rifle loaded with 286-300 grain Woodleigh's.

This whole discussion is somewhat silly since the 9,3X74 has proven itself on everything from dik dik to elephants for over a 100 years. German colonists regarded the 470 as the king of double but they also regarded the little 9,3 as the queen of doubles. Our friend Todd Williams just took a great lion with his little 9,3X74 double. Are there better tools for heavy game? Of Course. However, in the hands of a steady shot at close range, the little 9,3 will get the job done on most game.

whonever 375 is good for its same for 9.3, have wonderfull experience with this cartridge on few continents,i took few brown bears, back bears deers ek etc,never had to shoot twice,wonderfull caliber,would i hunt elephant with, no i wouldnt ,not that cant be done but there is better calibers for it,once again whonever 375 can do it same is for 9.3,especially for brenneke 9.3x64 even better

Our PH, after seeing us shoot two cape buff with 9.3x74s invited us to shoot elepahant with him using the same rifles. So far everyone who has seen 9.3s and 375s on game can't tell a bit of difference between them. And this seems particulary true with 320 grain bullets out of the 9.3.

If the 9,3 works on DG then my triple3 Jeffery with a 300grain should also work.

.333Jeffery is minimum using its 300grain nail.

Just a thought..