What are the strengths and weaknesses of:

1. 338 RUM
2. 338 Win Mag
3. 338 WSM
4. 338-06

For Big game in:

A. Lower 48 states
B. Alaska
C. Africa?

338 is one caliber that is fascinating from both an interior and exterior ballistics perspective, and the range of bullet types and weights that will take big game in this caliber is unmatched.

Where does one leave off and another pick up? Where are tyhe recoil comfort zones? How much velocity is useful close in and how much is overkill?

1. .338 Ultra: About as much as is practical in this bore and more than you want for most applications. Will give you 200 fps more than the .338 Win with a lot more powder, muzzle blast, and recoil. Not much more that you can hit or kill with the extra 200 fps, but is available if you want it.

2. .338 Winchester: The long-time standard in this bore. Will give an honest 2700+ fps with the 250 grain and 3000 with 200-210. Substantial punch, but manageable recoil and enough velocity to hit a game animal as far away as a resonable person would shoot at it.

3. .338 WSM: A wildcat, and less powerful (despite the "short-fat" hype) than the larger .338 Winchester. If, for some reason, you just had to have a (semi)short action, it would give performance somewhere in between the .338-06 and the .338 Winchester.

4. .338-06: Also a wildcat, and milder than the .338 Winchester. Just a tad behind the .35 Whelen for near to intermediate ranges, but maybe a little better choice (due to bullet availability) for longer ranges, but not as flat-shooting as the .338 Winchester.

Unless you're somewhat recoil-shy, the .338 Winchester gives you more power and versatility than the .338/06 and still all the practical power you can use as compared to the Ultra. There is no game animal that can be taken with the Ultra that can't be just as successfully taken with the .338 Winchester. The same is largely true of the .338-06, but it is just a little short of the range and authority that the .338 Winchester carries.

.338 Winchester ammunition will be more readily available any where you go as compared to the others. The Winchester is the practical choice, but those who like either of its larger or smaller cousins can do about as well with them.

[ 08-30-2003, 03:03: Message edited by: Stonecreek ]

Stonecreek's pretty much said it all, but I can add a little about recoil. I own a .300 H&H and a .338WM. The .338 kicks more, but not by much. The H&H is a M70 and the .338 is on a Springfield action.

Very well said 'Stonecreek' and you are dead on the money. The .338 WM has been around doing the job for a long time and will still do it today. The .338 RUM may very well end up being a flash in the pan if Remington keeps dropping rifle models in that caliber. Lawdog

I have no experiance with the RUM or the WSM, but do have experiance with the 338win(not mine), and own a 340 wby. The 340 wby I have never been very happy with, I realy have to lean on it to get ballistics I want out of it, and I have never been able to get it to shoot well. Mine is a lemon, and someday ill take it apart to see "why maybe".
That being said I favor the 338win, but dont use one because I am always on the high-end of small and one step above moderate, as in I shoot a 300 and shoot a 375, dont shoot a 416, but shoot a 458 lott etc... and could care less about much in between. When I had my 35whln Markn'saw and I did extensive penetration tests between his 338-06 and my 35. The 35whln out penetrated the 338-06 a number of times and vise versa using the same bullet weights and manufactures, and in game I couldnt tell the diff.
Id hunt dangerous game with any one of them.

I like the .338 RUM. Honestly, I blew it off along with all of the other cartridge hype years ago, and then a friend of mine got one. After numerous experiments and much shooting, I can say(IMHO)it is among the best of the new breed of super mags.

With 250 grain Noslers, I didn't think it kicked as much as the old 8 m/m Rem mag. As far as powder consumption is concerned, who cares, performance always costs more...right? Just like pick-ups, how many of us opted for the V8 or V10 engines, instead of the standard one?

IMO the 338 WM is the best of the bunch and the "standard" by which the .338" bore is judged. It's a sort of "Super 30-06"... ie, it pushes bullets of similar SD and BC at comparable velocities as the 30-06. I believe if you can handle the 06 well the 338 WM is manageable with a bit of prctice and offers a discernable step-up in power. Also, it works perfectly in a 22" bbl'd rifle. For me the "Super 33's" are too much of a good thing requiring an unecesarily heavy rifle and long barrel.

I just love the .338WM performance on Alaska game. It also benefits from lightweight bullets for those who want to shoot fast and far, and so from heavy bullets for those like myself who enjoy hunting with 250 to 300-grain bullets.

The .338WM with 250-grain bullets has trajectories similar to a .30-06 with 180-grain bullets, except that it packs a wallop.

But I would not mind using a "super" .33, even if one of them would be "much of a good thing."

[ 08-30-2003, 10:20: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ]

Guys, what about the 338 Lapua Mag ?

Regards

Stonecreek and Brad pretty much said it all.

I'm a .338 Win. Mag. fan. It's the only cartridge in this class that I have in my battery, and it's the only one I want to use. The .338 Win. Mag. is a very balanced cartridge in every way, and with practice 'most everyone can learn to shoot it well. The bigger .338s kick too hard for my taste (I won't use a muzzle break) and the rifles end up being too long and heavy anyway.

AD

WOW...what a Forum! All this information overnight...

A bit more on the 338-06, if you don't mind...is there an Ackey Improved version of this round? Something like a 280 AI necked up to 338?

It would be nice to close the gap with the 338 Win as much as possible and still work with 06 brass.

GBF, the 338 Lapua is a ballistic twin to the 338 RUM. Yes it has more case capacity, but without quite long barrels and very slow powders, you really can't make practical use of it (yes, I have one).

Sabot, there are a few versions of Improved 338-06's out there. The AI version will give 50-100 fps more then the standard, the 338-06 "Maximully Improved" (hey, I didn't name it) uses the 280 case, which gives you slightly more case length to work with, and a small increase in velocities (all other things being equal). There is also a version from Hawk, and the 340 Howell, which uses stretched -06 brass, for abour a 10% gain over the standard version (this will get you 338 WM velocities). Oh, and the 338-06 is no longer a real wildcat, as factory ammo and rifles are available from Weatherby (A-square also makes ammo and rifles, but they aren't a mainstream company). FWIW - Dan

Sabot, there's nothing wrong with the 338-06... I know Allen's had one and I've had one as well as a lot of other friends. It's a dandy cartridge and brass is a snap to make. Personally anything "AI" is (for me alone) a waste of time so I'll not comment on that. I don't believe the 338-06 offers enough worthwhile over the 30-06. A 338 WM can be loaded down to 338-06 velocities (and AI velocities) but the reverse is not true despite wishful thinking. In various 22" bbl'd 338 WM's I consistantly get 2,850 fps with 225 grain bullets and "just" (barely) got 2,700 fps with 225's in my 338-06. I believe I had a "fast" barrel in my 338-06... 2,675 fps is the "norm" for 225's in a 22" bbl'd 338-06. As to "cheap" brass... heck, 338 WM stuff is as plentiful as corn in Iowa and is cheap enough. Granted everyone's on the "beltless" bandwagon lately and there's no denying that belts on anything without an "H&H" on the headstamp are as useless as tits on a boar, but still who really cares? A handloader can headspace on the shoulder after the first firing essentially converting a belted round into a beltless round. Too, I'm contrary enough to stick to the belt because everyone else views it as such a detriment!

Rambling...

BA

PS... I have the suspicion that God inspired man to make the 338" bore specifically for elk... a "Match Made in Heaven!"

Sabot
The 338 Winchester has all of the killing power of the faster .338's. Out to a little over 300 yards the it is at no disadvantage.
The .338-06 is a neat little cartridge, but in the real world the the recoil is not that much less, and the .338 Win. can be downloaded to suite.
The 338 Ultra is a big step up. A 225 Nosler@3200 fps and change is nothing to sneer at. The 338 Ultra is also very accurate ( even Nosler says it's more accurate on average than the 338 Win.).

Is the extra velocity useful? Its extra recoil makes hitting a bit more difficult. In the right hands it will make shots in the 300-400 yard range easier.

Every gun and cartridge are a series of trade offs. You will have to decide which one is right for you.

One thing for sure... the .338 Winchester is the 90% solution.

Just my opinion.

Jamie

If the download theory worked we would all buy 338 Rum's and download to whatever.I love the 338-06 for N. America the difference between it and the 338 WM is 150-200 fps about an 1" to 1.5" of drop at 300 yds.For Africa/Alaska the 338 WM is better as the game is larger.

I think some of you guys are short-changing the 338 RUM. It is the one supermag that is truly usable, affordable, and shootable. Save your rath for the current crop of super short mags. I see no reason to reinvent the wheel.

All I can say is, I've never heard of a wildcat version of any factory cartridge that wasn't portrayed as more accurate, more shootable, more practical, and somehow more "efficient" and these sort-of-equivalent or "improved" .338s are no exception.

Let's see...... To make them you have to invest more of your time plus burn (read 'waste') powder (and sometimes bullets) to fireform brass, and you've also bought yourself a situation where the only source of resupply is your reloading bench back home. You might be hunting hundreds or even thousands of mile away from home, but your ammo supply still has to originate from the same place...... I won't even get into the reality that the resale value of rifles chambered for wildcat cartridges is typically abysmal.

But heck, by following that course you've managed to save yourself (brace yourself, because you've really hit the jackpot this time!) a whole $.10/case by using .30-06 brass instead of .338 Win. Mag. brass. Now of course, you have to factor-in the extra powder you've burned to fireform, but of course that gets canceled-out due to the fact that you'll burn less powder per shot from that point forward. Maybe you'll save a nickle or maybe even another whole dime per shot at that rate.

Yeah, that's a real efficient, practical collection of reasons to go with a wildcat .338 alright..........

AD

There is a place for the 338RUM,I have hunted there with a 30.06.For most places the reach of the big cased 338s come with too high a price.Do you want to practice 300yd. shots prone with one those mules?

Allen,

I would have to agree with your assesment where the Gibbs and "improved" versions are concerned. It isnt something a guy would want to do to try and save money on brass perse. Then again, most wildcatters thesedays arent trying to save money, they are either really specific about what they want or just like trying different things. Anybody who looks at wildcats as a means for cheap ammo is barking up the wrong tree.

Of corse if you want to lump the 338-06 in with those "wildcats" then that is another proposition and it most certianly CAN be loaded for less than the magnums. I get my 30-06 brass from the local range boss, once fired and neatly boxed, total cost.. nada!

[ 09-01-2003, 04:26: Message edited by: Wstrnhuntr ]

Make mine an Ultra mag. A critter can't be too dead. Is it needed? Probably not 80% of the time. But when you hunt out here in the wide open a little extra security or insurance is mighty comforting. When I trade in my 8 mag... I'll get a .338 Ultra mag. I'll only trade because of bullet availability... not because of performance. But for now... the big 8 works mighty fine...

Stonecreek's answer is excellent.

They are all fine calibres. My point is don't let the recoil thing put you off. I think its often an overhyped thing on this board.

The recoil in this calibre is substantial. But if you can handle a .338 Win you will be able to handle a .338RUM. If you handload you have all the possibilities of speeding it up or loading it down. Just don't be silly and order a 7lb rifle in either calibre unless it is going to be a braked rifle. Personally I would not go that way. Hearing loss is a very real thing.

Mine is a .338 Win M70 from the custom shop. If I could do it again I'd get the RUM but it was not even released at the time.

Both kick slightly less than the .375 H&H. The emphasis is on "slightly". If you are only going to have one rifle for big game, I'd get the .375 & skip the .338 altogether. But if its to be an elk or bear rifle any of the .338 "Magnums" would be excellent and just about optimum.

If you haven't shot anything at this kick level before start easy. Only a few shots at a time then more especially benchresting. Use past pads, sand bags, recoil jigs etc. to make the shooting enjoyable. Don't let the big recoil thing put you off! You can learn to handle the recoil & its fun to make the biggest bang at the range!!

Have a go.

I'll stick with the 338win mag over the others becase it works great and factory ammo is available everywhere. The others are all likely to be orphans in my opinion and less desireable as a consequence.

I would like to add some wood to the fire as follows:

Those who like to shoot far and reach out there with a "maximum" punch, then they would have no choice but to use the heaviest and most aerodynamically designed bullets. At the same time, they must be able to manage or tolerate more recoil than the average .338 can produce.

But there are great advantages in .33 bullets, since all manufacturers produce softer bullets to be used with the slower .33's, as well as other bullets that are designed to handle the speeds generated by some of the "super" .33's (.338 Lazzeroni, .338-378, etc.). In fact, some Nosler bullets are specifically designed to Lazzeroni's specifications.

My favorite cartridge is the plain .338 WM, which may well be the most popular cartridge with "hunters in bear country" (Alaska). I can load it to launch a 250-grain bullet at 2700 fps, or down to .338-06 velocities.

However, one can use one of the super .33's with bullets designed for it, and push a 250 grainer at 2850+ fps for the greatest punch possible...up close and far. I don't practice long range hunting nor I have any interest in it, but there is a large group of hunters who are already using "super " .33's for that reason alone.

Something else about the .338's: regardless of legality for Africa hunting, there are .338's that have been produced in Africa to hunt in Africa. One of them is the .338 Sabi.

Sabot
John T says the 338 Ultra is in the same class as the 375 H&H. In a heavier Sendero this would be true but, as he notes this is far from true in a light (7-9lbs) rifle.

The 375 is more of a push than the 338 Win. but the push is slower.

The 338 Ultra pushes harder than the 375 and is much quicker. Note the quicker part.
The 338 Ultra requires is a big step up in recoil control over the 338 Win.

I would never suggest the Ultra to someone new to the 338 bore.

Just my thoughts

Jamie

I am surprised that no one has stood up for the 338/06, as opposed to the other cartridges.

I own two 338 Mags, a Browning A Bolt that is so accurate it puts a lot of varmint cartridges to shame and a Winchester Model 70 with a beautiful stock.

Then I had my one and only Wildcat, that I had any desire to own built. A 338/06 on a Model 70 Action. Bought the rifle brand new and never even fired the barrel in the 270 that it came with.

I am also a handloader. My 338/06 will go on par with a few guys's 338/06 Ackleys for velocity any day, and normally gives me better velocity than the Ackley's give the other guys.

Those that think the 338/06's recoil is not much less than the 338 Mag must have different view of recoil than I do. I perceive my 338/06s recoil about 30 % less or more than the mag.
The 338/06 does have less range than a 338 Mag, about 25 to 35 yrds in my opinion. However, when you understand trajectory and are hunting something the size of Elk with it at 300 yds, ( the max I think one ethically should shoot[ for the AVERAGE guy]) the trajectory difference becomes a mute point.

The 338 bore is good enough, that even tho I use premium bullets in other bores, all 338 bullets have a sectional density of 250 or better, a high BC ( except the Round Nose) and a weight of 200 to 250 grains. Sure there are premium bullets that go to 275 grains. All I know is I sure miss the 275 grain Speers. With all of that, you are just paying for something to impress your hunting buddies. It does have a longer range than the 35 Whelan, and I look at the 338/06 as a better cartridge, ( while not saying the 35 Whelan is a Bad cartridge at all)

I don't think any one ever made the 338/06 a factory round, because Remington did not want to pay homage to Winchester by using a bore that they pioneered and Winchester did not want to detract from its 338 Mag.

I like the Availability of '06 brass, the efficiency of the '06 case, the efficiency of the 338 bore, and the terminal performance at less recoil than the other 338s. So I give up 25 or so less yards of point blank range, BIG DEAL.

My 338/06 makes the Two Mags spend a lot of time in the gun case any more, and the 338/06 spends its time in the field.

Seafire/B17G

Well said Seafire!
I didn't like the .338-06 all that much,but you made me want another one!

Jamie

338 Win. Mag. is my choice. This cartridge has been around almost 50 years now and throughout that time, has gained the prestige as probably being the best all-around cartridge on the market today. One of the most (if not the most popular) popular cartridges sold and used in Alaska.

I'm gonna wait a couple more years and see if the 338 Ultra will still be around.

I have taken Elk, Moose and Mule Deer with my .340's, with North Fork bullets they are awesome indeed. Just bought a .338 Lapua from a buddy, look forward to tweaking it in the near future. Good shooting.

For 90% of the hunters I'd guess the 338 Winchester magnum is the be all and end all for the bore size. It is efficient, cheap and available, doesn't kick too hard..plus it does a decently good job on game.
I've used one off and on for 30yrs and it never quite measured up to the hype for me. Long before Remington came out with their Ultra 338 I corresponded with Ross Seyfried about his 33G&A, and ultimately had one made to play with. While some may say the extra 200-300fps these deliver will go unnoticed in the field, I typically find just the opposite. It became apparent to me long ago that 3000fps was a threshold of performance, and a rifle generating that level of velocity vs one doing 2700fps with the same bullet would be significantly more effective. I've proven this to myself many times over with a 300Wby vs a 30/06 and with the wildcat 33 vs the 338.
There are some drawbacks with these ultra fast cartridges and they aren't for everyone. However, if given a fair evaluation that includes several head of game taken, they typically will impress the naysayers.
The 338 in any form makes a good elk or larger game round. I'm not one who thinks that by loading lightweight bullets it can be turned into a do everything caliber. I find it does it's best work with 225gr or 250gr bullets on large bodied game. My brown bear guide in Alaska wasn't fond of them for the big bears, he views the 375H&H as minimum but I killed mine very dead, very quickly with a 230gr Fail Safe from that wildcat.
They aren't legal for most dangerous game in Africa but paired with a 416 makes a good combo, and one I have used. I prefer the 300mag as a light rifle because it kicks less and is easier for me to hit small things at long range with. These days I find myself skipping over the bore, and using either a 300mag or a 375 instead but a 338 of one flavor or another is likely THE ideal elk rifle.

[ 09-12-2003, 07:32: Message edited by: John S ]

John S: Kind of strange your guide was not very happy about your .338WM, since this caliber is used by a great number of guides. It seems that every hunter (or most) up here has a least a .338WM in their arsenal.

But for brown/grizzly I would prefer to use 275-grain Swift, or 300-grain Woodleigh bullets. The 250-grain X should also be an excellent bullet for the big bears.

Ray-
It still puzzles me but I've hunted with him (Jim Rosenbruch) twice now and he still maintains that a 338 will not drop them as quickly as the 375 or 416. They have many years of experience plus many bears to their credit so who am I to say!

Phil Shoemaker has an new article on brown bear cartridges out in Successful Hunter , I believe .

He makes more or less the same claim , that the .338 is not noticeably more effective on the big bears than ssome of the thirty calibers ........

I do hope the .338 RUM can hang on as a factory cartridge , I think it is one of the best designed cartridges Remington has come up with .

[ 09-14-2003, 19:55: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]

You are correct about the experience of some guides, and one can't argue with that. From reading stories from hunters who have killed the large bears, and from a great number of newspaper articles about people who have been charged by bears, all sots of calibers are used in Alaska against such animals.

Not from experience, but from the experiences of others, I have come to the conclusion that what drops any animal faster than anything is proper shot placement.

There was a guy from Anchorage, in the late 60's I believe, who came upon 4 grizzlies feeding on a moose carcass. One of the grizzlies ran, and the rest charged. He shot four times with his .338WM loaded with 250-grain NOS rounds, killing two bears and injuring the third, reloaded one round, and hit the bear on the head with as it was almost on top of him. He killed three grizzlies within a few seconds, but all the shots were lethal. In this case, the hunter was very proficient with his gun, had the right gun/ammo combination, and maintained his cool under the stress of a charge.

It is very difficult for anybody to maintain one's cool under stress. In those instances it is very easy to miss, or wait for the right moment the animal presents the right spot to shoot, etc.

A few years ago, a coworker was telling me about his friend who was moose hunting. According to his story, the hunter was walking on a trail, and a grizzly walked across about 50 yards away. The hunter fired his rifle at the bear 3 times, and ran back to the campsite to get his hunting partners so they could track the injured animal. They got to the spot where he had fired his gun from, and on the ground were 3 unfired rounds. The hunter thought he had fired the gun three times!

There were two brown bear hunters, one of which was using a .338WM, and the other a .375 H&H. They fired their guns at a bear twice, but the bear ran into the brush. They waited for a while before tracking it, then they went ahead through the brush. The bear was waiting for them, and during the charge they finally put it down after firing their rifles several times. These guys swore "to never use any .338's nor .375's for bear hunting again."

For brown/grizzly hunting alone, I would use my .338WM with 250 A-Frame bullets, 275-grain A-Frame, or 300-grain Woodleigh. I would do the same with a .375 H&H with 300-grain or heavier bullets. But the main advantage of the .375 over the .338WM is a larger diameter bullet, and also its potential to launch a heavier than 300-grain slug at greater velocity than the .338. Other that, some .33 bullets are capable of penetrating as much or more that the heavy .37 bullets.

A step UP from both the .338WM and the .375 H&H would be one of the .416's, and that would be a bear gun to me. But for general hunting in Alaska, the .338WM is extremely popular.

Ray-
All of Rosenbruch's guides carry 416s or 458s! They also show a very strong preference for the Euro style 30mm scopes with a heavy reticle. They use the 1.5-6x Swarovski and Zeiss scopes on all of their rifles, and advise their clients very strongly to do likewise regarding claiber and scope choices. After hunting under their low light, close quarter conditions I know why!

John, in your above post I "hear" you saying several different things I believe! I agree, if a 250 grain bullet at 2,700 fps is good the same bullet a 3,000 fps is better. But, as you indicate, it takes a hell of a lot of prowess to place that bullet accurately at that velocity on small targets. Hence you preference for the 30 bore. I'd never argue and concur, that is THE RUB! The 338 WM is relatively mild mannered and gives impressive "drop in the tracks" kills with the light 210 Partition at 2,950 fps... guess that's why I've come to prefer that bullet in the 338 WM. It's easy to shoot and gives impressive results. Personally I have no desire to bash the coastal grizzlies of Alaska and am concerned priamrily with the local elk population and any errant grizzly that gets in my way while pursuing those elk. For my needs a 22" bbl'd 338 WM is as close to perfection as can be conceived. If I were to tote a 24" barrel I'd have a 300 WM as it shoots a touch flatter and, with a 200 grainer at 2,900 fps, would likely be as effective whilst being as easy to shoot.

Rambling...

BA

Before I built my 338Ultra,I knew which projectile I wanted to use as it's mainstay and that was/is the 210XBT/XLC.

I built mine with a 26" tube and leaned on Re-22 right outta the gate and have never been compelled to search further,with either ingredient. My barrel makes right at 3400fps with said combo and does so with most impressive accuracy.

It's impression on Game is of a magnitude that none of the chamberings thus far mentioned(save the Lapooooee),can match. I've aborted both of my 375H&H Ackley's and the 338Ultra is my preferred "hammer" now. In fact one of the 375's was parted out and the other sets stagnant.

I could not with a straight face,associate the 338Win as being on the same playing field. The Ultra is that impressive and I feel it's recoil levels are pretty sedate for what it brings to the table and bet your ass I wouldn't own a braked rifle on a dare.

It is a whole 'nuther can of whoopass................