Might that infer your experiences with the 338Ultra chambering,were skewed from that statement regarding my findings?

Or are you still pissed that you man the counter at a fucking Dairy Queen?

Swat a few critters with the above Ultra combo and get back to me...................

Laffin' here.

Go tender-like on me,as I bruise easily. There just ain't much hide left upon my knuckles,and my thick skull prevents my having a lick of skill or savvy in any area.

Now as far as the 338Winny and Ultra comparison is concerned,all I can offer is that I've dabbled with both and their respective orders of magnitude are vastly different upon the receiving end.

I've related it often,in that the only chambering I've personally seen put that sorta lick on stuff,is the 378Wby. That of course assuming great bullets in each and that is the direction I routinely lean and with the X in particular.

The 338Ultra with the 210X offers a rarified combo of attributes. It will shoot flatter than many 30cal offerings,as it's .471 BC launched at 3400fps is no slouch in trajectory. Nor is it a slouch in energy retention. What may go unnoticed though,to the unitiated,is the effects of that combo upon flesh and blood. It is a Holy Terror and that is sheer understatement.

Said combo sighted but 1.75" high at 100yds grants a 250yd zero. At 250yds it makes the energy that the 338Win does at the muzzle,utilizing the same projectile.

Anyhow,said projectile drops but 11.5" at the 400yd line and only 25" at 500yds and retains over 2600ft lbs of energy at the 1/2K line and impacts at 2400-ish retained fps at the same distance.

It would take more than two scoops of Magic Fairy dust,to allow the 338Win the sidelines,let alone stepping upon the same field. BT/DT.

The 338Ultra truly is an amazing performer. While being far from bright,I find it a rather interesting tidbit,that those bent on dismissing it's inherent excellence had never put fur in front of the crosshairs,of a rifle so chambered.

If you think the 338Winny is something,you'd be astounded at what the Ultra does in comparison.........................

Bigstick

You make an interesting point.

Myself and five other hunting buddies have .338 Ultras. We also have many years of experience with 340Wbs and 338-378's. We have noticed quite a bit more tissue damage with the fast 33's compared to the 338 Win.

The 225 Nosler@3200 fps. does a stunning amount of damage while the same bullet at 2800 creates less destruction. On deer sized game the extra 400 fps definitely puts the lights out quicker however moose do not seem to be any more impressed.

The other thing we have noticed is that X bullets above 3100fps. or so become violent killers. The high speed X bullets tear up a lot of vitals where a X bullet at 2700 or 2800fps puts a "pipe" though the animal.

If you read Brad's posts you will see he uses the 210 Partition at 3000 to get the same effect. I don't think he realizes it but, the pot is calling the kettle black.
The 338 Win will not produce the same effect with a 225 or 250 grain bullet(though its still agreat killer).

A moose hit with a 250 Nosler at 2600 doesn't seem any more impressed at 3100? Deer hit with a 250 Nosler at 2700 usually bounce 20-50 yards then tip over.

I definitely don't agree with you about the 375 though. In my experience the 375 bore is much more impressive on moose and elk. I have only shot 2 deer with the 375 so can't really comment here.

The results are far from clear but these are our experiences.

Yours may vary.

Go figure.

Jamie

Same playing field? Are we talking about cartridges or hunters?

Listen, I know guys who have taken more species of big game world-wide with the .338 Win. Mag. than most people will ever see for the balance of their lives. Some of them have literally taken all of the world's big game with that cartridge, including all species of big bears, all of Africa's Big Five, all species of wild sheep, etc. If that cartridge is somehow lacking, you couldn't prove it by its track record, nor the testimony of its most experienced users.

I'm sure that the .338 Ultra is an effective cartridge (how could it not be?), but for most people it won't prove to be nearly as shootable as the .338 Win. Mag., and personally, I find barrels of 26" or more in length to be about as handy to get around with in the mountains, out of a Landcruiser, or out of a saddle scabbard as a vaulting pole.

AD

Brad-
Yes, I was saying a couple of things in my post about the hot 33! Like several posters have mentioned, it is really an impressive cartridge and with 250gr bullets it is " a whole 'nother can of whoopass" compared to a 338. BUT, the recoil is not easy to live with in a lightweight rifle. My 33G&A weighs 7.25# scoped and loaded, I had it built just for rough country elk hunting. In that rifle the recoil is nothing short of brutal, but in a friend's rifle that weighs over 9 pounds it is very tolerable. Mine actually came out about a pound lighter than I requested!
If you're using 210gr Noslers in your 338 then you are approaching the level of performance I was after. Put those 230gr Fail Safes out there at 3100+fps and you have a killer of large game that truly must be seen to appreciate. The regular 338 will certainly kill anything that walks, just not so decisively!
Recoil is not why I have slacked off on this gun's use, it's more to do with my preferences in hunting. Plus, now that the 338RUM is available I want to have my 'cat re-barreled to the factory round. I like using the best tool for the job, so have gravitated to other rifles for what hunting I'm up to these days. The next high country elk hunt or coastal brownie hunt I make will see the cannon back in action!

[ 09-15-2003, 17:33: Message edited by: John S ]

Xman, actually I understand full well the 210 Partition has a similar "shocking effect" with its 210 at up to 3,000 fps that the UM version has with larger projectiles at similar velocities. I'm just calling utter BS on the statement that they're on "completely different playing fields"... that must be the worlds smallest field reserved for mental gymnastic's only!

John, I'll wager "brutal" is the right word! Like Allen, I refuse to lug 26" barrels and really prefer 22" on a rifle that tops out at no more than 8.25lbs which is why I find bliss in the 338 WM. Of course everything's a balancing act weighted towards one set of needs and predjudices. There are no "wrong" answers except the one you can't shoot accurately. I know my limitations and would require something in the neighborhood of a 9.5 lb rifle to do my best shooting with the UM.

My elk hunting partner and I were talking about the various 33's this week. As a guide he's been in on the taking of several dozen 330 to 390 class bulls. He's underwhelmed with everything on elk except the 33's. The bigger frontal area, he feels, makes a more visible impression on them when hit and gives a higher percentage of "drop in the tracks hits." From what I've seen I agree. The reality is however, most everything dies within 50 yards if the lungs are punched so the "best elk/whatever" cartridge debate is ultimately highly academic.

For 1000 lb toothy stuff that'll hurt you I personally could imagine wanting a bigger bore, but I'll bow to your experience!

BA

Brad,
Hunting coastal brownies can/does present some unique challenges for the hunter and using more gun than a 338 bore makes good sense, if the hunter can handle it. My 375Wby in it's 9# package is much more shootable than my 33G&A in it's flyweight form. I will likely be carrying the 375Wby my next trip if for no other reason than I want to try something different! I doubt it will be any more effective but we'll see.
These days my elk hunting is in fairly open country and I've taken good advantage of the 300mag's flat shooting capabilities coupled with easy recoil. Those 200gr Noslers @ 3000fps make elk tip over really quick too!

I just don't see the need for more gun than a 338 Win for anything in the USA or Canada. 250 grain Noslers frequently shoot completely through a moose. More than that seems pointless.

I love the performance of the .338WM on Alaska game, but I also agree with Big Stick about the lethality of the fast .33's.

But I can only tell about some of the bullets I have hunted with, and about my .338WM rifle.

---A few years back, there was a bull moose peacefully stretching its neck to reach for some birch leaves. It had no idea I was watching it's chest through my riflescope, from a rocky knob 200 yards away. When the horizontal crosshair settled in the center of an area of about one-third UP from the brisket, and the vertical crosshair touching the shoulder bone, I gently pullet the trigger. Upon the bullet's impact, the moose jumped up a little, then dropped on its side on some dead trees. My hunting partners and I had a hell of a time skinning and quartering this moose, because the 230-grain FS had broken both shoulder bones. It had also clipped the top of the heart, and exited.

I have recovered only one FS bullet from moose so far, and a 250-grain A-Frame (last week). The FS are loaded to produce 2830 fps at the muzzle, and the A-Frame a little over 2600 fps.

--Two years ago I shot a moose that was walking away, but broadside through the trees, across my field of view, not more that 250 yards away. When it stepped in the clear, right in front of the trail, a 250-grain Partition at nearly 2800 fps at the muzzle (Federal HE ammo) hit the moose high through the lungs. The moose pivoted on its hind legs, then dropped as it faced the opposite direction (away from the trail). The entrance hole was of average size, and there were two exit holes, each about the size of a nickel.

---The 230-grain FS I recovered from moose was from a quartering away shot of perhaps 225 to 250 yards of distance. This moose was the largest one I have shot, and was moving away from me after I called it in. I shot it through the right rib cage when it turned, and the bullet passed through its lungs, broke the far shoulder, and got stuck on the hide. But the moose walked about 20 yards after the shot before it dropped dead.

---The moose I shot last week was injured with a 225-grain XLC, and dropped with a 250-grain A-Frame. I "moose grunted" three times, but I didn't know there was a moose bedded in the field I was watching. I sat on a little chair, and as I dozed off watching the fog moving in and out of the field, two scrapes from the center of the field startled me. There was a moose in there trashing the brush with its antlers, but it was facing away from me, 200 yards out. I could only see the antlers and neck, and the top of the moose all the way to its rump. I was watching it through my riflescope waiting for it to turn a little, and when I though it did I pulled the trigger. The bullet in the chamber was a 225-grain XLC, and the rest were 250-grain A-Frame. It seems that the moose moved just when I pullet the trigger, so the XLC entered the rib cage, and bounced forward towards the brisket on the same side of the animal, then exited somewhere near the brisket. But when this bullet hit, the moose jumped to the right, and stood motionless...broadside. I fired my rifle one more time, but the 250 grainer must have hit a tree, because there was not reaction from the moose. I carefully aimed again, and this time the 250-grain A-Frame found its mark. Upon bullet's impact, the moose fell over its side, with two legs up in the air.

My hunting partner found the bullet stuck on the hide, and I thought it was the XLC one, because it had four petals folded back over itself. But when I came home and removed the flesh and blood from the bullet, I realized it was a 250-grain A-Frame. Of the lead between the cannelure and the tip, 50% disappeared (half of the nose). The other 50% of the lead on the nose, closer to the cannelure, was intact . The jacket peeled back over itself and outward, just like a Barnes X would, except that the interior portion of the petals was coated with lead. The front of the bullet, all the way down to the base of the petals that folded back, was completely flat. This bullet expanded, but not with a typical mushroom shape.

I have had several one-shot kills with my .338WM, most with 230-grain FS bullets. But I am certain that it would be the same with any .33 bullet from 210 to 300 grains. A fast .338 would be much of a good thing.
--------------
John S:
About those guides recommending .416's to .458's, and the expensive European scopes to their clients...Most guides up here want their clients shooting the biggest gun they are most proficient with, from a .30-06 with heavy bullet as big as they can accurately shoot. Only a few hunters can shoot well with big guns, and the least a guide wants is to go after a bear after a client has injured it. Regardless of bear size, a well constructed bullet through the heart of lungs is better than a big bullet through the rump. The most dangerous job for the guide is having to track an injured bear.

I have talked to guides who use .375's and .416's, others use 458's, while others use .338's. Most of the scopes you will see around Alaska are made by Leupold, but there are a few European scopes around here, as well as European binoculars. Of about 30 hunters I socialize with, one uses a .300 Wby, another uses a .375 H&H, one uses a .30-06 and a .7mm Magnum, a couple use .300 WM's, and the rest use .338's. The son of one of these hunters uses a .338RUM. The most popular cartridges with Alaska hunters are the .30-06, .300WM, and the .338WM.

[ 09-17-2003, 00:34: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ]

Ray-
I know other guides up there that aren't as steadfast in their big bore recommendations, but JR is. His hunting areas are in S.E. and most shooting is done at nearly last light or at last light, up close. Rarely will a shot be over 75yds. The want the bears down right there and over the years the big bores have apparently performed much better than a 300mag or similar. Tracking one into the rain forest in the dark is a bad deal, and waiting until the next morning allows the rain to wash away what little blood trail there is. Considering that if you draw blood your tag is filled, I would expect most hunters who go there would take his advice and practice with their big bore until they can handle it.

[ 09-17-2003, 03:08: Message edited by: John S ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by seafire/ B17G:
[QB]I am surprised that no one has stood up for the 338/06, as opposed to the other cartridges.

I'll gladly stand up for the 338-06 in either form. I've been shooting my Ackley 16 years now and it is enough gun for any patient hunter. That said, I would probably take my 375 H&H AI or 416 Rem. on a coastal bear hunt(if I had the money to go).
It isn't a hard kicker, it shoots flat enough for 400 yds if you practice and it doesn't blow up a lot of meat, even at short range. It burns 60-65 grains of cheap powder and like the other poster said, cases range from free to very cheap. The 338-06 is now the 338 A-Square and a factory round, albeit a very rare one.
A friend of mine did very well in Namibia with it this month. He stayed away from anything larger/meaner than Eland, however.
I've shot somewhere between 200 and 250 head of game with mine, mostly hogs (largest 750 lbs but still pretty easy to kill) with some white tail, axis and Nalgai (sp?) and meat destruction with the 200 grain ballistic Tip is minimal; no worse than Partitions or X's or Failsafes (tried 'em all). The BT is all the bullet you need until something bigger than moose comes along. My Sauer 200 weighs very little and is easy to shoot off the bench... 2850 to 2880 fps with R-19 and the 200 gr bullet. My gun didn't like the lighter bullets so I can't comment on them.

Ray:

There's an outfit in Alaska called Wild West Guns that makes a business out of tricking up 45-70 Marlin and Winchester lever guns. They even have their own hot load for sale.

Any experience with these guns?

kk

kk: I haven't seen these guns, except on pictures in gun magazines. Last year i read an article in one of the US gun magazines, where all the details about the Copilot were explained.

As far as I know from people who have these guns is that they are accurate, and of excellent quality. The Copilot would be ideal for "bush" pilots who may not have too much room to spare in the airplane. Some versions of the Copilot come in a very small case. The scope is attached to the barrel, so there is not change in POI when the rifle is reassembled. Some versions of the Copilot were nickel plated to prevent rust, but I don't know what types of finishes are offered by WildWest guns nowadays. As far as I remember, some of the work on the gun is accomplished in Alaska, and the rest in the "Lower-48."

The Copilot series of lever guns are well known throughout the US, since they are advertised in most gun magazines. A scoped Copilot , the ammo packed with it, and the case demand a high price. But I would buy one if I had the money, since it is a neat little package.

That's funny, kk!

In my old age, I am finding that I have less and less real interest in "hot rodding" calibers. I suspect there has been some wisdom evolved over the years in the "standard" calibers and the general weight range of rifles they are most commonly provided in.

As example, I find my 8 pound .338 Win Mag is just about right for hiking up the hill if the hill is pretty tall. The .338 Win Mag does what it is supposed to do out to 350 yards ... and that's about as far as I should be trying to shoot it at game ;>

If the hill isn't so tall, a 9+ pound .375 H&H works really well for me ... to that same distance with the right bullet ... and certainly delivers more energy within the target.

If the game is getting nasty and the hill is pretty reasonable, the .416 Rigby is pretty amazing in terms of energy delivered by a 10+ pound package and absorbed by the target.

It seems to me that the ultramags often try to get "one step up" performance out of the same weight rifle without increasing the bullet diameter. Aside from rifle weight helping to mitigate recoil, the lack of increasing the bullet diameter (with its improved energy transfer to the target) seems to me to limit the effectiveness.

More power to you guys who don't notice increasing rifle weight or increasing recoil in the same weight ... but as an old "fuddy-duddy" I don't see much value in the Ultras. If I need more energy, I'll take a bigger bore too and suffer the added weight of the rifle. (And sometimes it really does mean suffer!)

I think my pick of the bunch would be the 338-06.
I hope you're not asking what is the "ultimate" chambering, since there is none.
But I'd find a well-stocked k98 in 338-06 imminently useable for NA hunting.
The recoil is lighter than the others, and the 210g at about 2800 is about the same as the '06 shooting a 175g, but with a bigger hole.
Now, there's no reason not to get a gun especially for scary animals, and another for long-range antelope, and another still for generel elk, and these besides your ol whitetail meat-getter.
For a meat-getter, this 338-06 is pretty high on the list, right there with the 280 Rem, but it also slids into the general elk slot nicely.
I have a fast 35, so I don't need to think about the RUM or others.

I have shot all manner of game with the standard 338 Win. Mag. including more than several Cape Buffalo. I find it more than capable of everything I have asked of it..I like the 300 gr. Woodleigh RN softs and Solids....

I would not want it to run faster as any velocity over the 2400 FPS I get is detremental to bullet integrity and penitration IMO...Bill Dowtin gets 2500 FPS with a dose of 75 grs. of H1000 and the 300 gr. Woodleigh, I will have to try that one...I'll start at 72 and work up...2500 FPS would be fine for me..

I have no need for the faster calibers in .338, and believe them to be counter productive. They suffer from. bullet integrity, barrel life, recoil, blast and offer little in return IMO.....

RSY: Yes, Weatherby makes an "Ultra Lightweight" .338-06 A-Square (.338-06). The one I saw had a stainless steel fluted barrel, mated to a "blued" receiver. The weight was supposed to be somewhere around 6 lbs, and a beautiful little rifle that was.

Weatherby also loads ammo for it, and Cabela's sells Weatherby .338-06 brass.

WOW again...338 is sure an interesting subject. What i get from all of this is that if you EXCLUDE the big bears and very long shots at Elk out West the 338 Win is as big as one wants to go. I now confess to owning a 338 RUM model 700 stainless synthetic and it does download nicely to 338-06 levels with only 55 to 57 grs XMP5744, and you can get to 338 Win velocities with 72 grs of AA2700. In both cases, the recoil is the same as the 338-06 and 338 Win as the charge weights and velocities are the same.

However, when you crank the RUM up to full power loads the recoil is stiff enough for me that I would not do it just to have the power, or range, unless i really needed it. It gets into the recoil area where it is beating up your optics pretty good, and that is another variable one needs to cope with.

Yes, I have loaded 300 gr Hawks to 2720 fps in the RUM using AA8700, and there is no question that it would be lethal on dangerous game, but that kind of power is wasted on anything BUT dangerous game. The 225 grainers will do 3200 fps with R25, but again, you really need a heavy rifle to make the associated 400 yard cross canyon shots...its not so much the recoil that makes long range accuracy difficult as it is the fact that the rifle moves a LOT when you drop the pin and deviations in your hold move the ppoint of impact, no question about it. From the bench and on paper, its not a problem. Oh...the 1% is for terminating large sharks in 4 feet of water...I got the load from the Coast Guard but I don't think they use it on "sharks"...

So, I can live with the RUM as a handloader, but 90% of my field applications will be at 338-06 velocities, with 9% at 338 Win velocities. If it were not for XMP5744, I would actually buy a 338 Win Mag.

[ 10-09-2003, 07:24: Message edited by: Sabot ]

Exclude the big bears? hardly, the 338 Win is one of the most used stopping rifles by Alaskan guides out there today according to Phil Shoemakers recent article in Successful Hunter...

I have found the 300 Gr. Woodleighs just fine on a number of cape Buffalo, Bison and big bears and Cape Buffalo are much tougher than any bear...I have also shot some elk at 400 and over with the 210 Nosler, at a smidgen over 3000 FPS and got an exit hole, so I doubt that much is gained by a super 338 other than blast and recoil..

This is not a condemnation of the super 338's, just the result of my findings with the 338 Win. over the years. It is about as balanced a round as I can imagine and one of my favorites..

Ray

You shoot 210 Nolsers at 3000 fps.
I shoot 250 Noslers at 3000 fps.

You still don't see the difference?

Do you think your 210 will out penetrate my 250?

I don't!

Jamie

Jamie,
I found out a long time ago that a 250 at 2600 and a 250 at 3000 makes little difference in the heart lungs of a cape buffalo, bear or elk..

As a matter of fact I can see no noticable difference in a 210 Nosler at 3000 and a 250 Nosler at 3000...so to answer your question, no I don't see any difference in the field, only on paper and it the gun rags...

furthermore I see little difference in any of the calibers from 7x57 to 300 whatever in killing power up to 300 yards and thats as far as anyone should be shooting at big game other than deer anyway...

Thats just my opinnion, but its based on a lot of game killed by me and and a lot of oberservation of game being killed over a 60 plus year span, from someone who is in the hunting business, and has been for many years....

Sorry I forgot to address the penitration question you pose...Apparantly you are basing your asumption on probabilities...I suggest you try a few 210 Noslers and a few 250 gr. Noslers and then get back to me...You might be in for a surprise at to how close the are together...

Bob Hagel once told me the 210 Nosler at 3000 would outpenitrate the 250 gr. Nosler at 2600 FPS so I tried that and it did...so I tried them both at 2900 in a 338 Wby and both were so close I couldn't tell any difference...

This is for you for what its worth, but you might should try it out and see...keep in mind in your case you could drive the 210 much faster than the 250 and that makes a difference I would suspect...

Ray
True story on the 210 partition.....Sometimes

The nose of the 210 seems to have a light jacket construction compared to the 250. The nose of the 210 almost always blows off even in small game and the "solid" exits. The 250 holds together unless you hit something really ugly and usually stops under the skin if it stops at all.

The reason I say sometimes is that I have seen 210's (2) shot into buffalo (Bison) that penetrated less than 8 inches while a 250 (2600fps) into the same animal shut it down with 30 inches or more of penetration.
One exception does not a rule make but it was of interest to me.

As far as the 300 yard thing I agree. Mostly I have a fast gun because I can. I shot super far once and got lucky...I wont be doing that again. I shoot 250 gr. Noslers and 225 X bullets because I believe they best suite my cartridge of choice.
I have said it here before. The 338 Winchester is the 95% solution. I just like to rub in a little salt every now and then.
Speaking of which just how damn old are you Ray?

I hunt with a bow and arrow so I understand that a hole in the lungs means a dead animal. As far as the 7x57 verses the 30 cal thing it's just a matter of style and I don't mess around with small bores much. I did find the 30 mag. 200 Nosler a good combination though.

I miss reading Bob Hagel. Not to much bullshit and straight to the point. Is he still alive and well?

Just my thoughts.

Jamie

I've gotta jump in and defend the 338-06AI. Mine runs right with the factory 338 WinMag, with lower powder use and free range brass. Plus it'll shoot under 1" without much effort. It all just seems like the right match of sizes and performance. I have chrono'd 200 gr Hornadys at just over 3000 fps and settled on 210 Partitions at 2900 fps for elk coming up next week - all without pressure signs or big muzzle blast. Bullet performance results pending...

Of course, I did all the work myself, so this rifle came in quite a bit cheaper than buying something off the shelf in any caliber. Shooting it is a breeze. Recoil in this rifle is just not a consideration - for me anyway. I don't feel any sort of projectile envy for the faster 338s (but the 338 RUM is a cool round!). If I want more recoil, it'll be in something over 40 caliber

I don't think having to fireform brass is a waste - who can't use more practice?? Plus, I have never gone through more than a few rounds of ammo in a hunting season. As a handloader, I don't think that being tied to your loading bench is really a handicap. If I load up 40 rounds and keep them packed in my boots, there is no way I will forget them or run out while hunting, even away from home. It's no different that getting your factory chambered rifle all tuned up with special handloads - would you forget to pack those? Anyway, there's my 2 cents.... maxman

jamie,
I'm pushing the hell out of 70...

I like the 250 Nosler bullet but its very tough and doesn't expand well on smaller plainsgame at my slower .338 Win velocity and the 210 works perfectly...

I pretty much have settled on the 210 Nosler and the 300 gr. Woodleigh RN, a bullet I really like on big stuff..

I have used all the rest and most everything I have used in the 338 works like a charm....I don't like the 225 gr. Swifts on smaller animals or the Hawk bullets at all, other than that most bullets have worked very well for me..

I loaded up a 100 225 gr. x bullets about two years ago, but have not got around to using them, I gotta do that, maybe next year in Africa or this year on deer.

Maxman, this isn't about "forgetting to pack your ammunition". This is about losing it altogether. If you fly to various hunting destinations, as I often do, packing your ammunition in a seperate piece of luggage (instead of your rifle case) is an inescapable reality. Luggage CAN get separated and lost, and I've had it happen.

If this happens to you on the other side of the world, and there's not a single round of ammunition available within a thousand miles (or on the entire continent) for your rifle if it's chambered for an off-beat wildcat, you'll find that the whole concept of "efficiency", "practicality", and "economy" has taken on a whole new meaning.

AD

Allen,
So what if they lose your guncase instead of your luggage, Thats fits into the 50-50 catagory doesn't it???

Airlines aren't the only folks that can lose your ammo. Mine disappeared on a boat in Quebec. A long boat ride later I found ammo in the following calibers, 8mm Mauser, 303 British, 300 Win mag and 30-06.

Ray, here's a story for you that'll stop your eyes from rolling all about; this from Tanzania in 1995:

Long explaination required, but due to a broken switchbox on a NW Airlines flight from Portland to Minneapolis (domino effect), I was forced to inadvertently take a British Air flight into Dar Es Salaam. My duffle (with my ammunition)arrived, but my rifles did not.

Luckily, the owner of the safari company I was hunting with (Game Frontiers of Tanzania) had a Sako in .300 Win. Mag. on hand, as well as a Model 70 in .458 Win. Mag. He was low on ammo for these rifles, but I had plenty for each in my duffle bags. Luckily, my rifles arrived on the next mornings' flight, but even so.....

Now if I had a duffle full of weird ammo instead of common, factory stuff, I'd have still be "phucked" where I stood!

Common cartridges can cure a lot of potential ills, and there's no solid reason to use the off-beat stuff in the first place.

The one thing I refuse to do is die for a theory....

AD

[ 10-15-2003, 19:24: Message edited by: allen day ]

Don't forget our European 338: 338 lapua magnum;
now that's a cartridge : lock base 250 grs :
E� 6561 joules; V� 900 m/s
Just one drawback; it kicks F...... hard!
But nice shooting...

Gentlemen

After trying some of these hughe rounds I have come to the conclusion that I want a beltless case long enough to fit in a standard mauser action and do a tad more than the 338 winny.

The caliber that fits right in is 330 Dakota. Sorry is that the round isn't that popular since non of the big corperations has picked it up. It is not too hard to shoot and will still launch 275-300 grain bullets with decent velocity

/ JOHAN

I have owned and shot the .338 Win mag extensively, it will do the job on most game hunted here and Africa. I own and shoot two .340
Wby's, and a .338 Lapua. With a 240 grain North Fork bullet they are all awesome. My Lapua loves the North Fork and a 250 grain Barnes X at 3016 fps. The .340's both lke the North Fork and the 225 grain Swift A-Frame or 250 grain Nosler Partition. One .340 is partial to a 250 grain Nosler Partition Gold at 2950 fps. There are some excellent selection in bullets of .338's these days. The faster .338's simply give you a flatter shooting rifle, shoot them enough to become instinctive at the game and pick your poison. Good shooting.

[ 10-16-2003, 17:31: Message edited by: phurley ]

Hey Sabot,

The only difference between the cartridges you've mentioned is velocity. A bullet from the hottest cartridge you have mentioned will slow down to the velocity of the mildest cartridge. It's the same bullet and the bullet does the killing. I know - obviously...

The only question is, how much velocity do you want at the point of impact.

The strengths and weaknesses of any cartridge is the shooters abiltiy to know their individual range limitations for effective killing. I believe the optimum velocity, at the point of impact, for expansion and penetration is between 1,800 and 2,600 fps. That's an 800 fps spread. What's the difference in velocities at, say, 300 yards of any of the cartridges you mentioned? I doubt that there is an 800 fps spread and I doubt that any of them will be going slower than 1,800 fps. So, the question comes back to what cartridge would make you the most comfortable.

Good shooting,

Smoker*