Readers poll:

You are in Alaska hunting moose and stumble upon a grizzly bear. Which would you prefer for self defense in case of an attack:

A) 30/06 with 10 shots of 180 grain TSX's?

or

B) .338 with 3 shots of 210 grain TSX's?


I just recently aquired a Lee-Enfield 303 British which I cleaned and promptly sold. I really had no need for it.

Anyways, that gun got me thinking. In recently reviewing the firearm rules in my country(Canada) I discovered that one is limited to 5 shots or less ONLY on semi-automatic rifles. I was under the impression that it was illegal to carry a 303 hunting.

So this was my thought the other day. Why don't people make custom 10 shot clips for their bolt action rifles? I fail to see the problem having a clip extending out past the stock like a Lee-Enfield gun does. What are the objections to this? Why is it not commonplace?

I do not hunt in bear country, but if I did, I would most certainly have a 10 shots ready to go in my rifle. I would certainly feel safer carrying a 30/06 with 10 shots in it vs. something like a .338 with 3 shots. I don't care what anybody says, if Mr. Grizzly is running at me I would love nothing more than to pump him full of copper, over and over.

The chances of hitting the vitals are greatly increased and the 3 shots from the 338 can easily be reduced to 2 or even 1 quickly from complete misses. The first shot of terror and surprise could most likely result in a miss, easily leaving only 2 left to kill. With 10 shots in my 30/06 or even .308 I would just keep hammering at the bear.

Before you guys start roasting me, it is not practical for myself to own a seperate bear gun. I would love nothing more than to own a .280 Ackley Improved and use that for everything but that gun is a little light for bear country. 11 rounds of 175 grains would give me 1925 grains to sling at a bear.

Maybe I should go into buisness making custom floor metal and 10 shot clips for Remington and Winchester rifles. You heard it here first, Glory to God!

Cor

My opinion all the shots available don't really matter.
It is the first one or two well placed shots that count.
Bears move so damn fast that by the time you figured out you are in trouble all the 10 shot clips in China aren't gonna help much. One well placed and maybe a second panicked shot and its probably about done, whichever way its gonna work out.
I'm not gonna lie to you I don't have a lot of Bear experience but I've been around the black ones a lot, enough to know how fast they are and I'd guess the big ones and the Brown ones are fast too.
I don't think its firepower (quantity) that is the ticket, I truly think that any well placed shot from hunting rifle is what matters. I can't envision a Bear chargetaking place any further away than 30-35 yards, probably much closer, any Bear will cover that distance quicker than most folks can realize what is happening and get the rifle to the shoulder and off safe and get a shot off let alone 5 or 10 shots.
Just my opinion............for what it may be worth.

I've hunted the black bears enough to know that you will never get 10 shots off at the speed they can move at when they're angry/scared. Brown bears can react in very similar fashion. I always make my heart/lungs shot and get a follow up head shot ready just in case, because that is the only sure fire way to put one down for good when they're coming for payback.

If I hunted in big bear country, I'd probably carry a .300 magnum of some sort and use 180gr bullets on everything and not worry about it, and pick something larger specifically for hunting bears where chasing a wounded animal into thick brush is a possibility.

I have used an Enfield on black bear, the Federal 180gr load worked fine for me but if it hadn't, I would have most likely gotten a second shot off but most likely would not have had a third shot.

I would be happy with either option.

quote:

you will never get 10 shots off at the speed they can move

I think this is a flawless argument and would have to vote for the larger bullet

if a g-bear charges you and means it it you won't have time for 10 shots

Well put it this way, you might get off two maybe three shots if you are lucky, the first one is going to be the most accurate one. The reason is that nobody dose ten shot magazines for sporting rifles has more to do with carry and handling issues than anything else. Four down and one up the spout is plenty and if its not then well, that is what doctors and hospitals are for.

I dunno which cartridge/rifle I'd want up close to a bear; I guess whichever I could shoot better.

Personally I think a sporterized .303 SMLE could make a pretty sweet all-round rifle.

But if you want more firepower in a "modern" rifle there is a commercial option for t http://www.cabelas.com/prod-1/0024317226539a.shtml he rem 700 called the kwik klip http://www.cabelas.com/prod-1/0024317226539a.shtml

a little P.S.

I believe that the M1 Garand (with 8 round en-bloc clip) has an exemption from the 5 shot semiauto limit in Canada.

quote:

Originally posted by George Semel:
Well put it this way, you might get off two maybe three shots if you are lucky, the first one is going to be the most accurate one. The reason is that nobody dose ten shot magazines for sporting rifles has more to do with carry and handling issues than anything else. Four down and one up the spout is plenty and if its not then well, that is what doctors and hospitals are for.

Or morticians...

While outside of the parameters offered for this argument, the 338 offers a longer range capability for the solution. Otherwise, I fully agree that bullet placement is the key. You will need something heavier and bigger bore to stop a large bear at close range.

You askes what I'd prefer, and something like a 75x350R, fired from the turret of a sherman tank comes to mind.
That said, go with which ever rifle that you shoot the best, in a panic situation. IOW the most powerful gun in the world won't do you any good if your afraid to pull the trigger.

Leave the high capacity magazines to the Hollywood cop shows where they spray the world with bullets that spark on impact, but won't penetrate a sheetmetal car door or a sheetrock motel room wall.

If you're in a self defense position with a charging bear, the distance is measured in feet, not yards, and if you're lucky, you'll have time for one well placed shot.

Both of the caliber/bullets you mentioned could stop a charging bear with the proper bullet placement, but the .338/210 would have the edge over a .30-06/180 with approximately 1000 ft-lbs more muzzle energy.

BTW, where can I get some of those neat sparking bullets that Hollywood uses? I've shot thousands of centerfire rifle and pistol bullets and I can't remember any of them sparking on impact.

Yup, the bear scenario was dumb I guess, still, the point of the post was to see why larger clips are not popular. Even for hammering at a running monster whitetail straight away.

Looks like the Kwik Klip has stole my glory.

Steyr makes rifles with 10 shot magazines. I have a scout rifle and a pro hunter each with 10 magazines.

If I was hunting moose in Alaskan bear country, I wouldn't leave home without my 375 Weatherby. I believe in taking the gun for the bad scenario. A well placed 270 Win. will kill a moose and piss off the bear. I'd arm for the bear and hunt the moose. The moose will never know what killed him. Just my two pennies.

This discussion routinely comes up in handgun calibers. The guys that want to carry a 10mm Glock v 44mag or heavy 45colt. You are not going to get off 10shots that hit in a close confrontation. I'ld always opt for the bigger bullet presuming I'll only land one good hit, I want it to count the most. Even in a hunting situation, I've rarely needed or even had the opportunity to get off more than one or maybe two aimed shots.

my pref. would be something in full auto - preferably belt fed

Sometimes the bear deserves to win.

After reading this thread, I think the bear deserves to win more often.

Just give me a 3 shot .338 with 300 gr. Woodlighs..That will leave me 2 shots left to walk home with in case of trouble...

quote:

Originally posted by Tumbleweed:
Sometimes the bear deserves to win.

After reading this thread, I think the bear deserves to win more often.

Here... Here

Survial of the fittest (Natural selection) cleaning up the gene pool...

quote:

Originally posted by olcrip:
If I was hunting moose in Alaskan bear country, I wouldn't leave home without my 375 Weatherby. I believe in taking the gun for the bad scenario. A well placed 270 Win. will kill a moose and piss off the bear. I'd arm for the bear and hunt the moose. The moose will never know what killed him. Just my two pennies.

The problem is the 375 Weatherby probably would cost me close to a $1000.00 and I would not enjoy handloading and tweaking it for accuracy unless I wore something like a Mckoy shoulder sheild. Money does not grow on trees in these parts. Owning multiple rifles for every day of the week is for the rich.

Cor

I have a marlin 45/70.
To me its a very good close quarters stopper.
It hold 5 rounds. and has an efective range of about 150 yards.
If It and I were put to the test, I would be smarter to wait till the bear got close enough to ensure a good hit with the 1st round and I might be able to get a 2nd. But a bad hit might be worse than no hit at all.
...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:

quote:

Originally posted by olcrip:
If I was hunting moose in Alaskan bear country, I wouldn't leave home without my 375 Weatherby. I believe in taking the gun for the bad scenario. A well placed 270 Win. will kill a moose and piss off the bear. I'd arm for the bear and hunt the moose. The moose will never know what killed him. Just my two pennies.

The problem is the 375 Weatherby probably would cost me close to a $1000.00 and I would not enjoy handloading and tweaking it for accuracy unless I wore something like a Mckoy shoulder sheild. Money does not grow on trees in these parts. Owning multiple rifles for every day of the week is for the rich.

Cor

AR Corey, by no means am I rich. We all have our own priorities, mine just happens to be putting together hunting rifles. I'm a retired carpenter with a tool makers apprenticeship under his belt that allows me to use my skills to build whatever I wish. I don't have a wife at home anymore and have been happy for 13 years. In no way did I have any intention to ruffle your feathers. I simply gave my opinion about hunting moose in Kodiak country. Throw the heaviest bullet you have available and pray to God you have the nerves of steel to place the life saving shot correctly. As you spend more time in the field you will come to realize how fast wild life can move and that includes the huge bears. Good luck and carry the biggest stick you can get your hands on.

I agree with you OlCrip, If you can't afford the expensive guns equip with what you can afford. In big critter country I with you on the 375 weatherby. My choice is the 378, just my preference, waited a long time to afford one, glad I waited.

quote:

You are in Alaska hunting moose and stumble upon a grizzly bear. Which would you prefer for self defense in case of an attack:

A) 30/06 with 10 shots of 180 grain TSX's?

or

B) .338 with 3 shots of 210 grain TSX's?

Couldn't I have a 338 loaded with 300 grain Woodleighs instead?

For your initial scenario I would personally favor the 338. If, however, you would still like to pursue the high capacity route you might consider the 740/760 Remington route. These share the same basic magazine and 'someone' was making a 10 round magazine at one time. As the same magazine fits all of the 30-06 class of cartridges, how does 10 rounds of 35 Whelan in a 760 pump sound? A poor man's battle rifle?
Triple K makes the mag and a Google check shows it to be about $20.

My understanding is that bear, being more numerous in the world as compared to several decades ago are being under managed in some localities. The damn hippies don’t help. Some bears may be learning that the sound of the rifle means dinner. Our scraps, guts, hides and other leavings are attractive morsels. If this pattern is reinforced time and again eventually that bear will be close and will surprise you while your field dressing your kill or packing up.

Your best protections are to stay alert and quiet after the kill, if you must gut the animal bring a bag for the organs and do not go out by your self. I like to hunt alone but when time comes to hunt in real bear country my brother at least will be along.

Some responding here spoke of the bear’s speed and that is exactly what I have heard in other places where this topic comes up from time to time. The other aptitude of the bear is to be very quiet. I suspect that the final approach would be down wind but a bold one may just take the shortest rout from point A to you. Do not take this as “it is now more dangerous to hunt in these places†just plan for the worst hope for the best and if you have a problem DO NOT PANIC. If you see a bear act like he is not there just do your thing and watch closely. If there is trouble steady aim, release, repeat but do your self a favor and practice every once in a while imagining a charge and maybe you won’t $hit your pants.

As for defense I will not hunt any place that does not allow me to have my Ruger Super Red Hawk 454 Casull.
http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/highresimage?saleitemid=169177

390grain cast flat nose on top of 20.5 grn of H110 @ 1270fps
That revolver in a holster that is slung off of my belt and strapped to my leg so that the grip is in my hand with my arms down (accessible while sitting!) is the most gun I can handle with the biggest cartridge that I can get target reacquisition in time to save my bacon! (with more practice!!)

A rifle seems to slow to get from slung, to chamber, aim fire. A carbine, maybe but it is in your hand at all times to be of use. Just my next to worthless opinion.

Rex Rat -- sending you a PM -- I want to know more about your .454 loads.......

amaeteur question, hunting is serious business,if u see a real grizzly u wont be able use any of them trust me,thet are big as a dodge van

If I knew I was going to face a charging bear, I would want one of my double rifles, either my 9,3x74R or my 450/400.

quote:

Originally posted by lickilovac:
amaeteur question, hunting is serious business,if u see a real grizzly u wont be able use any of them trust me,thet are big as a dodge van

I just finished reading a book called:

"Adventures of a Big Game Canadian Outfitter"

Weldon Parsons


He carried a 30-06, and must have had nerves of steel.


He wrote one story about a guy carrying a 375 and wounding a grizzly.

He had to track it and found it had circled on him and was crouched, waiting while observing his buddies.

The intelligence is apparent.

Speculatory bear threads and mid winter seem to go together....

As others have said I think shot placement is critical trumping the difference between a 338 and a 3006. While I prefer and use a 338wm for most of my hunting if I could not shoot it accurately I would go down to something I could use effectively.

As well, if one is using a 338 I would sure as heck be using 250's or better.

As far as where the first bullet goes, I like to double lung them first.

Back to the original question, I would shoot my 338 loaded with 250grn Swift Aframes.

quote:

Originally posted by wlbc:
Speculatory bear threads and mid winter seem to go together....

As others have said I think shot placement is critical trumping the difference between a 338 and a 3006. While I prefer and use a 338wm for most of my hunting if I could not shoot it accurately I would go down to something I could use effectively.

As well, if one is using a 338 I would sure as heck be using 250's or better.

As far as where the first bullet goes, I like to double lung them first.

Back to the original question, I would shoot my 338 loaded with 250grn Swift Aframes.

That's been my choice as well.

quote:

Originally posted by wlbc:
Speculatory bear threads and mid winter seem to go together....

As others have said I think shot placement is critical trumping the difference between a 338 and a 3006.

As far as where the first bullet goes, I like to double lung them first.

Back to the original question, I would shoot my 338 loaded with 250grn Swift Aframes.

Speculatory bear threads --- Speculatory being the operative word.

Why do some have to harp so about shot placment as a qualifying factor? It's a waste of words. When discussing the merits of two different cartridges, it's just as easy to presume all things being equal regarding shot placment. I mean, I have yet to see a thread like this start out: - Suppose I shot a 800 pound BB up the arsh with my beloved 06, would it have been better to have brought my 90 pound wife's 338 with her favorite load of 225gr TSX, and shot the boar in the shoulder? Or, I've never seen one like this: While moose hunting out of Wasilla last month, I had to shoot a brown bear that charged, and damn I had to shoot him five times with my 30-06 before he quit rolling around and bawling, and all was quiet. Do youse guys think I should have carried a bigger gun, or placed my first shot better?

A double lung shot on a charging brown bear is a good thing to wait for - just wait until you have the proper broadside shot - that's my recommendation for others. I won't be following my own advice to others though.

As has been said thousands of times -- many knowledgable people recommend the 30-06 as a minimum cartridge where a BB may be encountered. Which to me means the 30-06 sure beats a sharp stick, and will surely kill a BB if you can hit him right the first shot.

IMO, neither the 06 or the 338 is a stopper without a perfect shot, but I would rather have the 338, and the 225 TSX bullets would be ok too, with 250 gr somethingerother better. More thump = more margin for error.

When I hunt the little Sitka deer in B Bear turf, I like the assurance of my 338 with 225 gr swifts, or my 9.3x62, and I'm least comfortable with my 30-06.

KB

quote:

Why do some have to harp so about shot placment as a qualifying factor? It's a waste of words. When discussing the merits of two different cartridges, it's just as easy to presume all things being equal regarding shot placment.

Or just as easy to be specific. It's very easy to be misunderstood on line and qualifying words to set context are useful. However I hear what you are saying.

quote:

A double lung shot on a charging brown bear

I agree that a double lung on a charging bear is impractical. How I interpreted the op's statement was that the bear was unaware of your presence. During last years grizzly hunt I walked up within 100 feet of a young boar with the wind hard in my face. He was never aware of me.

I've only killed two bears in full charge and they were just black bears. As I recall both incidents one was pretty close and I just aimed at the frontal mass and kept firing till he dropped. The second was still about 100 yards away so I placed a second round in the lungs and he never made it to me.

quote:

IMO, neither the 06 or the 338 is a stopper without a perfect shot, but I would rather have the 338, and the 225 TSX bullets would be ok too, with 250 gr somethingerother better. More thump = more margin for error.

Again I agree, neither is a stopper without a perfect shot. I use a 416 Rigby as a "stopper".

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
Readers poll:

You are in Alaska hunting moose and stumble upon a grizzly bear. Which would you prefer for self defense in case of an attack:

A) 30/06 with 10 shots of 180 grain TSX's?

or

B) .338 with 3 shots of 210 grain TSX's?

I do not use any Stinkin' Politically Correct Bullets. So, I'd go with an Original Fred Barnes Bullet or a Nosler Partition. And between those two choices, I'd go with the 338WinMag, but would probably just go with my 350RemMag.

quote:

Why don't people make custom 10 shot clips for their bolt action rifles? I fail to see the problem having a clip extending out past the stock like a Lee-Enfield gun does. What are the objections to this? Why is it not commonplace? ...

The problem comes from where to place your hand when actually carrying the rifle. If you place it ahead of the magazine, the rifle is Butt Heavy, or if held behind the magazine it is Muzzle Heavy. Either situation would not be comfortable to carry for any distance in one hand.

Just not practical on a typical Bolt Action Hunting rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by wlbc:

I've only killed two bears in full charge and they were just black bears.

The second was still about 100 yards away so I placed a second round in the lungs and he never made it to me.

Am I misunderstanding something?

KB

High tech stuff Kabluewy. You wouldn't understand, right out of Dick Tracy. You know, head on double lunger.

.338