This bag will be used mostly in the fall in Alberta for backpack sheep and elk hunting. I've narrowed it down to 2 down bags. One is a minus 7 bag that weighs 2lbs 10oz's and stuffs to 9.2L. The other is a minus 12 bag that weighs 3lbs 1oz and stuffs to 11L. They are priced within $30 of each other. Which one would you go with?

If they are the same brand, same quality I would go with the minus 12 bag.

When you are backacking in cold weather you recharge your "batteries" when you sleep. you do not want to be cold.

I would make sure whatever bag I bought has a hood and a collar that cinches up around your neck.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
If they are the same brand, same quality I would go with the minus 12 bag.

When you are backacking in cold weather you recharge your "batteries" when you sleep. you do not want to be cold.

I would make sure whatever bag I bought has a hood and a collar that cinches up around your neck.

They are both the same brand and do have a hood and collar.

For your uses, having been there, there is only ONE bag to get, IMHO. Call Evan at Integral Designs in "Cowtown" and get him to make you a "Sierra" with his optional 900 fill down and a 2 ounce overfill.

Get a "broad" model if your chest is 44" or larger and a "Long" if you are over 5'9", his bags tend to fit a wee bit short. You look after this bag and your grandson will use it.

I have a LOT of ID gear and it is simply among the finest made anywhere. I have now got 3 ID bags and may well buy two more as NOBODY makes a better bag and I own and use all the other "name" brands.

Beg, grovel, snivel and take the "boss" out for a fine dinner,so, she will agree and then BUY the ID bag as I suggest, you will never regret it.!

I would go with the minus 12.

Also I would keep it in a water proof roll down bag.

If I left my bag in camp I would put it in the water proof bag before I left.

A wet down bag is useless as I am sure you know.

In much of western Canada, leaving a down bag in a waterproof sack when you are not in camp will dampen it from condensation and often severely. This is NOT what you want to have happen and the I.D. and other highend bags I suggest will resist ambient moisture far better if hung inside your tent or laid open on your bunk or sleeping pad.

This is not conjecture, it is from direct personal experience living alone for months on end in the mountains where Chuck intends to use the bag he will buy. Go I.D. and be happy for life!!!!!!!

Dewy

The reasomn I recommended putting the bat in a H2O proof carrier is while you are gone hunting if a bad storm comes up or if a bear gets in your tent, happened to me once, and you bag gets wet, or shreaded it is worthless.

I lace my down bag out in the sun, if there is sun whenever I am in camp.

When I hunted a while back a hundred miles or so out of Nome, we carried our dwon bags with us on the snow mobile everyday in water roof bags without problems.

There was always enough time to dry out the bag form the sleepers condensation.

I used a Marmont Mountain Gore Tex down bag that I have had for about 30 years. I think it cost me about seven hundred dollars back then.

Well taken care of a good down bag will last for a long time.

If, a bear gets into your tent, he is most likely to investigate and shred any bags he finds as bears are very curious animals. So, your sleeping bag would be toast and I do not consider this a sound reason to leave a bag in a sack in camp.

Of course, you carry a sleeping bag in a waterproof sack when actually traveling, by horse, snow machine, boat or "shanks mare", that is not the point. You do not leave it inside one of these in camp, that IS the point.

As to "Marmot Mountain Works", I had Eric Reynolds, their former manager, when they were in Grand Junction, CO., make me a custom down and GT bag, their second warmest model with some of my added design features, in January, 1978 and used it, along with a few other bags, until it was stolen when this house was burgled on Dec. 17, 1999.

I slept in that bag for many weeks on end inside tents and bivies and in temps. from -41*F to over 60*F in various work and recreational bush situations during that time and it was like new when that b*ztard stole it.

I also have and use a highend down-Gore-Tex bag from Feathered Friends, 20 years old, well-used and like new. I had a custom winter bag, down and Endurance, made for me by Integral Designs and I have a Valandre Shocking Blue backpacking bag as well as a Western Mountaineering Alpinelite Super. I have had several others and am very familiar with the care of down bags, especially in the region where the original poster is going to use his chosen bag.

I paid $400.00 CDN. for my Marmot bag in '78, a lot of money at the time, but, with 150-200 nights per year in a bag in the BC bush, I thought then and think now that buying the "best" was/is the wisest use of one's hardearned $$$$. If, you paid $700.00 USD, the "greenback" then was about .94C CDN, you may have been "rooked".

I NEVER leave a down bag or expedition clothing in any type of bag when in camp and my Richard Egge "double duvet" down expedition parka is as good today after 35 years of deep winter use as it was in Oct. 1974 when I paid #175.00 for it. Again, buy the best, treat it properly and enjoy a lifetime of enjoyable use from it.

Chuck, btw, is a young guy with a wife and baby and he has to get the best value from his gear and an I.D. down bag made close to his home is exactly that.

Dewey, I definitely will be giving them a call.

Hmmm... sounds like something I need to be doing too, but somehow I'm get the feeling I'm going to get sticker shock!

That siad. my Wiggys bag is so incredibly bulky and heavy, there WILL be a time when it gets replaced.

(Edit: heck I was just a few blocks away from I.D today, without knowing it; I met my taxidermist at a body shop to pick up some furs, and had lunch at Tim Hortons on Blackfoot)

Frans

Wiggy's bags are crap and should never be mentioned in the same paragraph with I.D. or Valandre, the two finest bags I have ever had.

I HAD a wigsack and gave it a fair testing and it was a total pos. Check into the fact that the Wigwhacko has been turfed from many forums for dishonesty and causing trouble, Kifaru.net is one of these and he should have been sued for his behaviour there.

I would sleep in a sweaty horseblanket on straw before I would even touch another WiggedOut product.

I got the wiggys glacier hunter, and it works great for me , I wouldn't use anything else, unless theres better, used it on my 2009 dall sheep hunt in the Alaska range this year....nuff said.

And the results were great...

This is about "down" bags,eh.

...unless theres better..., that's my point, for backpacking there ARE much better choices, especially for relatively dry Alberta.

In Alaska and B.C., I prefer synthetics for my hunting and emergency bags; my Integral Designs bags, which that utter buffoon Wigwhackster called "garbage", definitely out-performed the Wigsack I bought.

But, each to his own....the Wigaroo got his "experience" of cold weather "growing up" on Coney Island, a REAL wild place.

I got mine from BC., Alaska, Alberta, the Yukon and the NWT.....still think that Wiggums is a total azzhole and his gear is mediocre at best.

I've had great luck with Western Mountaineering down bags. Looking at buying two more as we speak.

I have done a couple of hunts out of the Dillingham area.

The outfitter said not to bring a down bag under ANY circumstances.

So I bought a Synthentic bag by Mountain Hardware.

It too has a hood and a neck collar. It worked great.

YOU ALL MISSED THE MARK.

THE BEST SLEEPING BAG IN THE WORLD ID A "WIGGY" MADE IN ALASKA BAG.
NOT TOO EXPENSIVE EITHER, BUT THE ABSOLUTE BEST...
WATSON LAKE..."YUKON"

I agree with the AK outfitter, I just find a good synthetic bag(s) far less trouble for hunting and will thus accept the weight difference beteen a 0*F down and 0*F synthetic bag, even when backpacking...this is about 2 lbs., btw. I never use anything else now, except my Integral North Twin, it's "Andromeda Overbag", which can double as an "in your pack" emerg. bag and these "do it all" for my hunting here in B.C.

Watson Lake, sounds just like him, but, the bags are made in Colorado....they are used in AK and will keep you warm to -70*F or some such........

Having slept in a very highend down-GT bag at an honest -40*F, welllll, I would like to see that........

Have never been let down by A Down sleeping bag in more than thirty years. Yes you have to take care with them, but they are beyond compare. The one's from feathered friends are very special. ( http://www.featheredfriends.com/)

With and extensive run with the Sierra Club, years as a Assistant Scoutmaster, years as an avid hunter...you don't want down, trust me. For the extra weight, synthetics are the way to go for reliability. If it can go wrong, it will. Having my bag wet and still keeping me warm is worth the extra weight. Snow caving, elk hunting, winter whatever...this bag is it:

The North Face Goliath 3D Sleeping Bag: 0 Degree Climashield HL - 2007
(add a Coccoon bag liner for insurance)

You won't be sorry. I'm 6'4", 260 lbs and there is plenty of room in this one.

M

Just a question for you "hardcore" backcountry backpackers, why do none of you use or consider military surplus "Artic or Intermediate Cold" sleeping bags? They have done the research and know what it takes. Just asking.

Rae the military bags are good...for military use. They are built very well but are heavy and often use a lot of cotton. Cotton is nice stuff, wears well etc. but heavy and hard to dry out. I've been using a German military bag as an under bag lately and it works nicely to get my old butt off the cold ground. Then my down bag does the rest. If you're not carrying your gear too far the military stuff is probably a good choice.

By the way I paid $14.00 for my down bag at a rummage sale. It's brand new and some wife probably caught hell for donating it to the sale!!

the chef

WIGGY'S.. Sound Quality..
AK

I know this comment is rather late in coming but I wholeheartedly agree with Dewey. Get an I.D. bag & don't look back. I know you specified a down bag and don't know off hand if I.D. offers them but I'd say "screw down". I.D. gear is rather expensive but top notch in my book. I have one of their mummy bags and a jacket as well. You wouldn't believe how warm that jacket is - I'm wearing it at about -10 deg. and am quite warm.
When we go on our next sheep hunt next Aug. on the north side of the Brooks, I'm taking the jacket w/ hood and a pair of their insulated pants so we can siwash it on top of the mountains at night. This is the only gear I trust for this kind of activity. BTW, I'll take my I.D. bag too but will leave it in our spike camp. Just my opinions.
Bear in Fairbanks

I have three ID jackets and I use a halfbag from another small very fine maker, "Wildthings" of New Hampshire with one of them as an emerg. system.

What ID jacket do you use, mine are the Dolomitti and two Rundles. My hunting Rundle is green and my WT 1/2 bag is red, so, I look like freaking Christmas, but, with an ID eVent bivy, it keeps me warm, dry and safe.

ID will be shipping their new eVent shelter, the "Wedge" after Christmas and it is looking like one fine serious alpine shelter....the price, welllll......but, it is worth it.

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
I have three ID jackets and I use a halfbag from another small very fine maker, "Wildthings" of New Hampshire with one of them as an emerg. system.

What ID jacket do you use, mine are the Dolomitti and two Rundles. My hunting Rundle is green and my WT 1/2 bag is red, so, I look like freaking Christmas, but, with an ID eVent bivy, it keeps me warm, dry and safe.

ID will be shipping their new eVent shelter, the "Wedge" after Christmas and it is looking like one fine serious alpine shelter....the price, welllll......but, it is worth it.

Dewey:
My jacket is the Dolomitti too - olive green & black. Got it thru a small outdoor store here in Fairtown. Yeah, cost is a bit of a shocker but when your gonna absolutely depend on your gear absolutely, at what point does cost become the overbearing factor? I do have to admit I have a problem paying upwards of $200 for Sitka Gear pants since I think I can find something that will work for me as well for a lot less.
BTW, Merry Christmas in your "get-up".
Bear in Fairbanks

Does anybody believe in using those warm up things inside a sleeping bag. You know, the little things that are supposed to last for up to 8 hours and keep you warm.


Also, can I butt in and ask about socks.

Many years ago I purchased some socks that had some kind of metalic reflective material on the outside. My feet never got cold wearing those socks. They finally wore out. Now, no matter what type of socks I purchase (Mostly Smartwool) my feet get damn cold. I cannot find any with that reflective material on them.

What is the recommendation for a boot sock that will hold in the warmth provided by feet (i.e the sock isn't warm, the foot is, and the goal is to keep the warmth from leaving the foot).

22WRF

The "warmers" that work just by exposing them to air are GREAT.

They work very well in your boots, and in your gloves, especially when stand hunting...

The bigger sleeping bag warmers work great as well...

I have even used them, the wife and I both, 2 of them each to be exact, one in front, one in back, inside our shirts, while buthcering 2 downed elk in a bad sleet/snow storm....

So yes, I recommend you give them a try.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I would go with the minus 12.

Also I would keep it in a water proof roll down bag.

If I left my bag in camp I would put it in the water proof bag before I left.

A wet down bag is useless as I am sure you know.

That is why I use synthetic fill instead of down. A little more wieght, but will not soak water and leave you cold

I've owned and still own synthetic bags, but I find them too heavy and bulky for backpack hunting.

I keep my bag in a Sea to Summit e-vent compression dry-sack and have never had any "wet bag" problems.

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
Just a question for you "hardcore" backcountry backpackers, why do none of you use or consider military surplus "Artic or Intermediate Cold" sleeping bags? They have done the research and know what it takes. Just asking.

Rae59, I have the new issue MSS. It's a good bag (or actually bags) but it's heavy and bulky. My down bag (with a similar comfort rating) is one half the weight ....but it was also more than twice as expensive as my MSS.

For Texas the modular sleep system wouldn't be too bad. It is more flexable for warmer climates than my down bag.

jwp

I use a synthentic bag when I am in serious wet conditions...

I put it in a water proof bag as well.

As I do all my other stuff too.

We have never heard back from Chuck as to what he actually bought, so, this is a bit of a "moot point". He hunts and lives in "the Eastern Slopes" of the Alberta Rockies and, while it is dryer there than in much of BC or Alaska, it CAN absolutely pour. I had one rainstorm, on Athabaska Tower, in July, 1991, where my rain gauge showed just over 75mm of rain in just over an hour....damm near washed the tower down into the Athabaska River!

When you are a "dude" hunter, being looked after by a professional guide and outfitter, you have greater leeway with your gear than you do when solo hunting or with a single partner in serious wilderness conditions, such as the "Willmore Wilderness", where Chuck hunts.

Under such conditions, I have found that the best synthetics are NOT too heavy and bulky to backpack and ARE definitely much easier to keep dry than any down bag. I used down bags exclusively for many years and in some of Canada's most remote regions, alone for months in places where a wet bag could well mean a slow death. I found that Integral Designs Primaloft bags simply performed so much better, with less hassle, under hunting conditions, that I now use these exclusively for hunting.

I love a good down bag and my I.D. custom winter bag and my Valandre Shocking Blue are ready for post-Christmas winter mountain treks here in BC and I am eager to go. I like to use gear that suits ambient conditions where I live and while fine down IS better in severe cold, nothing beats Pl. in freezing rain, sleet and during late hunting season.

After 45+ years of hunting/wilderness living in BC and Alberta, this is what I have experienced.

Regarding the hand warmers etc. I've heated some water and put it in my water bottle, then wrapped in an item of clothing and put in the bag....pure bliss. It'll still be warm in the morning.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
jwp

I use a synthentic bag when I am in serious wet conditions...

I put it in a water proof bag as well.

As I do all my other stuff too.

Living in Alaska for 7 years taught me that tents can be destyroyed by high winds and/or bears,etc. I have been caught out with no tent and the wheater turned to rain, when this happens the down bag isn't worth much in the warmth department

WIGGYS.

A wet down bag is worthless and a down bag in real low temps will not wick and actually can gain weight even in a tent. I have slept in a wet Wiggys in very low temps. They keep their loft better than any bag and can be stored compressed. Most other bags stored compressed will eventually not regain much loft.

quote:

Originally posted by Elton:
They (WIGGYS) keep their loft better than any bag and can be stored compressed. Most other bags stored compressed will eventually not regain much loft.

I'll give you that, Elton! The WIGGYS can be kept compressed for a long time and regain loft.

They are low maintenance bags.

Downside...... WIGs are heavy and bulky (and IMHO..... over priced).

Well, everyone has their favourites and that is great, however, NO synthetic bag, especially the cheap Wiggy's filled with an old version of Polarguard, will retain it's loft like a really fine down bag will. Down bags like precision optics, highly tuned and modded mountain rifles and other specialized mountain gear MUST be used correctly, however, if that is done, they outperform any synthetic in cold by a large margin.

Chuck probably forgot all about this thread as he never has reported back to tell us what he eventually purchased. I hope he will, but, knowing Chuck, I seriously doubt that he would "drink the Kool-Aid" from Wiggy's.

Late but......I have had great results w. both my MARMOT bags. One synth and one down. Both cold weather IIRC -20's.

My overnites are mountaineering type for a few days in the White Mountains New Hampshire, Vermont, and Maine. Not quite the same as where the OP is planning on using his new bag.

Coldest I slept in was -30 w. the down bag and it kept me in a good place! Thank God for pee bottles