As you predict, Denis, I can't Google either a knot called kleisterman or a knot inventor called Heinz Kleist.

'The Really Useful Knot Book' by Geoffrey Budworth lists an "extended French prusik knot" which is done with webbing and looks like a threaded maypole to my eyes. Because both tag ends of the webbing come out at the bottom, the knot supposedly absorbs the shock loading Scubapro warned of by sliding until the falling load is "low enough".

'Self-Rescue' by David J. Fasulo lists a friction knot called "Klemheist", which sounds a bit like the Kleisterman you describe, except it doesn't really have a tag end. Made with a sling rapped maybe five times around a vertical rope, the longer bottom bight is then inserted through the top bight. The load is taken on the bight from the bottom. Fasulo says it is a good knot for ascending and holding and is more versatile than the prusik because it can be tied with webbing or cord. Hopefully, it is also good for descending. To me it look a little more fragile than the prusik, more likely to bunch up if not kept under tension. I say that because I'd be inclined to have the slings and knots tied ahead of time in case I forget how to do it properly when needed.

Fasulo also shows the Autoblock and Bachman friction knots, which incorporate carabiners.

The Kleisterman is very similar to the Klemheist.
The knotform is basically the same except the top bight leading from the wraps is kept very short
and the longer bottom bight on the tag end passes up to the top of the wraps & thence is loaded downwards.

This allows a long leverage on the top bight & the top bight is tensioning the wraps. because the tag end of the loop from the bottom is virtually doubling over itself when the tag is loaded its acting as a force multiplier in compressing the wraps from the top.
Conversely , as in most diagrams of the Klemheist ( or french prusik) the bight from the top of the wraps is longish & passes down the wraps towards the bottom , or is actually right at the bottom of the wraps.
This changes the tension profile in the knot form by tensioning the wraps into compression from the bottom ( via the tag end directly) rather than from the top where it is force multiplied.

I hope you can picture those differences referencing a diagram or vid of a Klemheist.

If you are not confident with your knot tying , suggest you stick with the classical prusik & practice it .........as in a previous post , the key to successful use of the prusik ( or any backup knot to a munster on a 'biner )is that the 'tie off' of the backup knot is SHORT to your harness, so the knot is below your control hand & your control hand actually stops the tension of the tag from compressing the backup knot as you move down the rope in a rappel . It also keeps the tag of the backup knot from tangling in your bridle to the 'biner by being short & having your control hand between the 2.The other thing that mitigates tangling is that your 'biner & its bridle are tied off to the harness at the front of your stomach & the tie-off of the tag of your prusik is at your hip, done corectly the two descent control ropes ( 'biner & prusik) are not ever near each other..........unless the prusik tie-off is too long .......and then you have to be pretty unlucky.


Try it Paul & you will be confident in your ability to tie your rig on the day & that it won't tangle on a rappel .......focus on getting that tie-off to the prusik short & it will be fine.You will know when its too short as its tag will be tight & it will be doing too much braking in your descent ( or even stopping your descent).

Comparisons on the technical merits of different knot forms is just that
.......technical.......the detail of the slightly different knot forms applies a different set of physics , tension & leverage to the basic knot form. They can look very similar with subtle differences , but change the tension profile dramatically by that subtle difference in the form of the knot.
Analysis & proof testing identify what the best knot is for a given job, but if the user cannot identify the specific differences, the knot form is confused with other similar ones & goes from being great to being maybe only 40% of the great one.

Knots are only as good as the person who ties it , .........same as rifles, they are only as accurate as the person pulling the trigger will allow them to be.
Knots & shooting improve both outcomes & confidence, with practice & more practice.

I assume you are intending to use a minimalist rope harness as part of your kit, what size rope are you planning on carrying to use as the harness( you need something around 12-14mm dia if its not going to cut into your butt & back), and just long enough to do the job, allowing for bulky clothing on the day.......or be used by a mate who might be a bit 'broader in the beam' than you are.
You don't want any of your bridles, harness, or prusik loops to be slippery material .....its hard to go past a polyester outer cover type rope for those jobs.

quite a few good vids of the 'minimalist" rope harness that are easy to follow, much easier IMHO than pics in a book. Books are great to see the sequence & form .......vids are better for seeing the actual execution, & relative lengths of bridles / loops etc.

Good luck on your hunt.

Thanks Denis,
I'm a bit hassled with other considerations at the mo but will come back and read your post again later.

However, I intend to copy a few pages from the books in case I have to tie knots on the spot. As to harnesses, well, I'm taking a Bear Grylls outlook on this aspect, as the daypack will already be full as a goog with 35 litres of other survival gear. Remember, my Kiwi mate last year took none of this stuff, saying he kept out of the ice and snow, though by where he went I'm not sure it's true.

More later
- Paul

Having reread the past few posts again, Denis, I think we're on the same page.

David Fasulo's Klemheist friction knot has a reasonably short upper bight, so sounds pretty much like the Kleisterman as you like it.

I'm still interested to know how successful one prusik or Kleisterman might be at holding the two sides of my rope sling together safely. If just one of these knots would hold on the allegedly slippery Titan cord, it would save bulk and maybe leave some of the lesser accessory cord to make some ad hoc harness. It would not be as thick, or comfortable as the stuff you suggest but would save me finding s short piece of proper climbing rope. Maybe I could have a separate piece tied to my belt as a backup.

On the other hand, it looks like the Munter hitch demands a pear-shaped 'biner and the only one I've got at the moment is the sausage-shaped type. So I guess I'll have to get another one and maybe a short piece of thick rope or strong webbing at the same time.

For anyone wondering where this discussion went, my egregiousness at knot theory led into PMs - but I'll give a summary here of how it evolved in case anyone else is interested in making a minimalist self-rescue setup.

The friction-knot made a main sling unnecessary, so I undid it and simply tied each end with a single Figure Eight, Which I've taped, to stop me running off the ends.

I then made a big bight in the middle of the 25m of 5.5mm Blue Water Titan cord (doing it again I might look for a longer piece of the thinnest adequate elastic climbing rope, to avoid any possibility of the shock from falling 2m that Scubapro warned of). This big bight is to put around a large rock to help me get down a hard bit of hill, if only for 10m or so, using a Munter Hitch through a Petzl Attache carabiner. Denis's suggestion that I needed a thicker piece of rope to make a leg/waist harness got me thinking: an affordable caving-type webbing affair might only weigh another 150 grams but give more comfort, adjustability and safety. Googling this led me to a Climbx Robertson Galaxy harness for $38 that weighs about 450 grams - you might find something even lighter.

I'll put in a good word for the purveyor here because he did the right thing. The harness and biner only came to $50 and Adventure Gods (a branch of Adventure Rope Gear) listed the cheapest mail as First Class International for $12, which made sense to me considering the total. Michael, the man there, did not approve because the progress could not be traced, and suggested a $45 alternative. On a $50 purchase, I said I was game to risk the $12 mail I had paid for. He relented and said they would honour the original price, though (somehow - had there had been a mistake?) the cheapest mail he would normally do was $21. The box arrived a week later and I noticed he had paid $36 for the postage. So, if anyone wants similar goods sent to Oz, I suggest you ask for the $21 postage

Anyway, you might remember I also bought some less-slippery 5mm accessory cord and made it into three 1m slings tied with two double fisherman's knots - but may wish I'd made the slings slightly longer. As a short-drop back-up to the Munter Hitch, I have pre-tied one of the slings into a Klemheist friction knot (with the smallest-possible upper bight) around both standing parts of the main 'rope', which my informant tells me gives even better friction than around one piece. While I hope the sling's fisherman's knots will stop the Klemheist coming to bits before I use it, I have made a compact photocopy of several knots to take with me.

The Klemheist knot will be connected to the harness below the Munter Hitch, the idea being to push the Klemheist down with my gloved brake hand as I release the rope through the 'biner. In the event of losing my grip on the rope, I would fall a few inches until the weight comes on the Klemheist, to be pulled up as it tightens. This needs to be practised, I know, and my sons are talking about us going to a 'rock climbing' place in the city.

I may take the other two 5mm slings to NZ in case I have to make Prusik or Klemheist knots to climb up the rope again. All this makes more mass than originally intended, of course, but if you 'buy the bag' you need to take it away.

Here endeth the Epistle

- Paul

Paul,
If you enjoy playing with ropes, knots and all manner of climbing kit, you would thoroughly enjoy a weekend up at Mt Arapales Spel? western Vic with your sons and a guide.

One tip I was given by an experienced mountaineer is to replace all the draw cords etc on your pack, coats with high strength cord - in that way you will always have a few meters of cord that will more than hold your body weight on you and that can be used in an emergency for say tying a sling.

There are some extremely strong cord used in sailing and paragliding. Lines on a paraglider are dyneema, 1.5mm in diameter with a breaking strength of 2,000 kg. Having 20 or 30m of this in your pack would take little room and could be useful in emergency.

About a dozen years ago "SPECTRA" cord was the top stuff when it came to small diameter and strong cord. Not sure if its been superseded by something new yet.

Thanks guys.
If you know of a guide who would outfit us for the day, Adam, I might consider it; he would probably look down his nose at my emergency kit as it is. Denis has told me to go and practise with it at least on a tree, which I intend to do.

Had I known of such strong but fine line when I started on this business, SR20, I would probably have got that cord and made do, although I haven't found any as thin or strong as you mention yet. I notice the Blue Water Titan is advertised as having Dyneema in it. I don't suppose paraglider line would work well with the knots and hitches I mentioned, though, so maybe it's better I didn't. Can you explain how you can see it being used?

Searching Spectra has introduced a world of yachties and survivalists previously unknown to me. Being cheaper, maybe some could be used sacrificially above the Titan if needed.

However, either the biner or harness instructions warned against using non-flexible ropes, probably for their own stress factors rather than mine, so any thoughts on extra cord would tend to consider this.

Maybe I could add a bit of occy strap into the equation

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
About a dozen years ago "SPECTRA" cord was the top stuff when it came to small diameter and strong cord. Not sure if its been superseded by something new yet.

Vectran & Zylon are the new kids on the block.

that pair are 'brothers from another mother' like Dyneema & Spectra are , ( but with higher strength & higher abrasion resistance)

some use in braided rope cores , but a lot more expensive than Dyneema/Spectra.

There are several different grades of Dyneema/Spectra with the strongest ones running at about 2.5mm for 2000lb B/Strength.
The problem with the really fine diameter stuff is you cannot hang onto it & when you can't it cuts like a knife.

for sailing & climbing etc the construction is usually a spectra/dyneema core with a polyester braided cover to give a high friction outer surface from the polyester.

even at 5mm dia & doubled its tough hanging on to it for very long with hands.

Can anyone suggest a way I could use a piece of ultra-slim cord to extend the reach of the Titan I have?

I was thinking of throwing a 25m sling of 3mm Spectra or similar around the rock as well as the Titan; after rapelling to the bottom of the Titan I might then retrieve and redeploy it around the lower end of the narrower cord's reach, to get another 11 or 12m of descent. This should save having to take a hand grip on the 3mm cord.

Is that the way you would use it?

Paul
Personally I think you are getting into quite dangerous territory.

.
If you really think you need more rope I would be buying another length of the Titan & tying them together. with the knot just off centre at the top.


Belaying at the midpoint of a drop , or a steep slippery incline & redeploying your primary rappel rope is heart stopping stuff for a relative newbie.
I would not be doing it if not schooled by a climbing instructor beforehand on exactly what & how you need to do it.
rappelling on enough rope to go all the way is bad enough without the pressure of belaying at the halfway mark.

5-6mm rope is OK for going down , but marginal for going up
3mm is marginal going down & murder going up

100% spectra braid is not going to do it.
...........its strong enough , its just too slippery.
3mm nylon or polyester braid covered spectra core is too marginal in strength for this little black duck.

You need to remember that what you are going down, you might need to go back up....He He.

Let a climbing instructor tell you if what you are proposing is something THEY would do....if there was a chance they had to go back up that 3mm rope section..........let alone down.

The first rule of downhill climbing is that ......unless you are 100% certain you DON"T have to come back up the way you go down .......you HAVE to be able to go back up what you went down.

even where its just a steep incline & you just need the rope as a support , hanging onto 3mm rope is murder.

Sorry Denis, I was just building on Heym SR20's idea of using high-tech cord for all draw cords in case of need. He then extrapolated this to 20 or 30 metres and I was thinking aloud about what this extra cord could be used for, though I'd forgotten it was to comprise of several small bits. If I can find a few feet of the fine cord I might get enough for my coat drawcord and leave it at that.

Yeah thats about the limit for it Paul.
yachting shops usually carry the 3mm spectra cored braid.

Thanks Denis,
not sure where a yacht shop is, nearby, but maybe a general boating place would have some.

Cheers
- Paul

Since most of my questions have been answered and the tahr hunt is drawing near, here's an update on my packing.

I've fitted the Grivel Air Tech Light new classic crampons and all seems good. I was a little concerned that they only just had enough adjustment for my US size-10 Meindls, though - so anyone with big feet might need something else.

I bought a cheap Fairydown walking pole. In order to keep weight down I can remove the bottom two sections and fit them into the hollow handle of my CAMP Corsa ice axe, which is angled off at the end to save needing a spike. Because the handle section is oval, I squished a piece of aluminium pipe, cut out much of the middle bit, and push that in to take up the space in the axe handle. By twisting the walking-pole shaft, it compresses a spring, expanding a collar that locks in as with the original handle. Everything has been painted matt-black of course, to not scare the critters.

For safety, the axe head is covered with a bike inner-tube and this makes a fair handle. In the case of needing both a pole in one hand and an axe in the other, I can remove and extend the pole to give a normal length, for me at least, and put the inner-tube over the spring to make an acceptable grip.

I found some Spectra cord and have used five feet of it to make an axe lanyard, as per a Mazamas internet tip, that hitches to my belt so the axe can be used by either hand without trouble. This includes a 12-inch Dyneema sling, which can be used as a wrist loop for 'piolet traction' if the lanyard slack is wrapped around the axe handle.

Thinking I may not be able to find a bollard-like rock to loop my 'rope' around on needing to get down a hill, I tried to buy some commercial 'nuts' on line, to wedge into cracks in the cliff. For some reason the merchant could not send to my address but this just got me thinking: why not make my own and save $60-100? So, I bought some aluminium bar, cut it into wedges, bored out sling holes and swiss-cheesed each piece to save weight. For the smaller ones I've just bored the threads out of steel hexagonal nuts. If I find a suitable nut size (or three, to be sure) I can girth hitch them with a Spectra sling to the main rope loop and hopefully get down that way.

Thanks for all your help
- Paul