Does anyone feel the need to take ice axes or nordic poles when hunting for sheep, goats or tahr?

I have used an Ice-axe whilst hunting Thar but I have also done quite a bit of Mountain climbing. They can be of good use on frozen ice fields BUT unless you know how to use them properly it might be best to stay away from them. On the other hand Leki type fold up trekking poles might be ideal for the gentler type slopes so common on the approach.

Thanks Adam,
I've got myself an ultra-lite axe, just in case. Where can I find out how to use it?

- Paul

i use a walkin' axe for all my mtn hunts i have 90 and 100cm long ones that i use.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Thanks Adam,
I've got myself an ultra-lite axe, just in case. Where can I find out how to use it?

- Paul

When are you going?
I'm sure there would be some weekend alpine training courses run out of the ski fields that would be informative and fun.

Thanks Ozhunter,
With luck I'll be going tahr hunting in early June, a bit soon for the ski fields around here - I doubt if they'd have snow, let alone ice. What is the main mistake people make when using ice axes?

I always carry & use an ice axe on sheep and goat hunts!

Snow or ice slopes greater than 25-30 degrees can lead to long slides into bad places. Knowing how to self-arrest and carrying a lightweight walking length axe like fortyonesix's can make life safer and easier. It is an essential for the mountain guy. My old knees won't descend w/out trekking poles. My favorites are Grivel axes and Black Diamond poles. Have a Great hunt.
Mike R

quote:

Originally posted by mike r.:
My favorites are Grivel axes and Black Diamond poles. Have a Great hunt.
Mike R

I too favour Grivel along with Charlet-Moser.

Mine is a Corsa Camp, supposedly the lightest axe you can get and dubbed by someone as the axe you get when you don't expect to need one.

That said, what are the greatest usage dangers if I do need it?

If you are going into territory where ice axe might be required I would have thought a set of crampons would be as important - perhaps not the full Grivel g12 climbing ones, but certainly a lightweight pair. Carrying any sort of pack over hard packed snow and ice needs good traction.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

That said, what are the greatest usage dangers if I do need it?

Going into bad country thinking you are safe when you do not know how to use the equipment correctly.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym SR20:
If you are going into territory where ice axe might be required I would have thought a set of crampons would be as important - perhaps not the full Grivel g12 climbing ones, but certainly a lightweight pair. Carrying any sort of pack over hard packed snow and ice needs good traction.

Thanks for that. So wearing socks over the boots Bear Grylls fashion wouldn't cut it in an emergency? What do you think are the cheapest light-weight crampons worth taking, for someone hoping not to need them at all, who tends to carry excess gear, anyway? Despite the line name, I notice my Meindl Denalis are not listed as crampon suitable - but I guess that means nothing when TSHTF.

Hopefully I'll avoid the hubris of thinking I'm safe, Adam, by remembering your words, and perhaps some of the danger by keeping off the snow and ice. A few clues would still be welcome, though, in case I finds myself with no choice.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
certainly a lightweight pair. Carrying any sort of pack over hard packed snow and ice needs good traction.

What do you think are the cheapest light-weight crampons worth taking, for someone hoping not to need them at all,

Hopefully I'll avoid the hubris of thinking I'm safe, Adam, by remembering your words, and perhaps some of the danger by keeping off the snow and ice. A few clues would still be welcome, though, in case I finds myself with no choice.[/QUOTE]

Grivel Air Tech Light Classic would be worth looking at.
Will you be at the "wild deer show"?

quote:

Grivel Air Tech Light Classic would be worth looking at.
Will you be at the "wild deer show"?

Thanks again, I'll google those crampons tomorrow.

I hadn't thought of going to the Bendigo show (4/5 Feb), but did intend to drop off a computer for my cousin near Maryborough. He is a hunter, too, so maybe we could make a side trip, if the wives don't object.

BTW, I am revisiting an English book called 'Mountain Hazards' by Kevin Walker, which has about 10 pages on using ice axes, as well as stuff on crampons.

Cheers
- Paul

Here in Scotland, deer stalking tends not to be in extreme winter conditions. I also do a lot of paragliding and this involves carrying a 15 to 20 kg plus pack up the hill. Some of the best flying is in midwinter and often we are setting off in the dark, spending several hours climbing / walking to the top and then flying off. All gear needs to be light. Personally I use Scarpa Manta 4 season boots and Grivel G12 crampons - they work very well on hard packed snow and ice. They are aggressive enough to climb in, albeit not a true ice climbing crampon. I carry them as when you need the traction you need it and you do feel secure.

Last winter a lot of the outdoor shops started selling rubber and chain slip on over shoes - wolf trax - I think they are called - £15 or so. Really designed for use on ice covered pavements etc, but they do give a surprising amount of grip on hard packed ice. And they are lightweight, but wouldn't expect them to last particularly long. But could be a useful alternative to crampons if you on flattish ground and just wanted more grip.

But if you are going to be anywhere where a fall would be serious have crampons, ice axe and a rope, be with at least one or two others and know how to use them. 3 biggest dangers are:

1) weather - get good forecasts and know how to read mountain weather. Work on the basis that can you survive 48 hours if it goes pearshaped

2) terrain - and most importantly falls. A slip on flat ground just hurts, a slip on an ice covered 20 degree slope equals you doing a good impression of a sledge out of control.

3) avalanches - know how to read the snow, how to dig a pit and assess likelihood of avalanches and how to navigate across mountains using islands of safety.

It's not a lot of knowledge or gear, but plenty of people loose there lives every year from poor knowledge or conditions changing. If in doubt get some basic training - basic rope, ice axe and crampon work really will keep you safe.

Grivel spider crampons would be worth a look
http://www.outdoorgb.com/p/gri...LC7a0CFcEntAodfQqK5g

And at £23 a lot cheaper and lighter than a full on crampon such as
http://www.outdoorgb.com/p/gri...2_12_point_crampons/

Thanks Heym SR20,
while checking out Ozhunter's suggestion, I came across this:

http://www.amazon.com/Kahtoola...3Y48/ref=pd_sbs_sg_5

How do you think they would compare with the Grivel Spider crampons?

As someone hunting at the very start of winter who hopes not to cross snow at all, do you see either as giving any passable utility? My worry about proper crampons is partly the bulk and a danger that they might spike a leg or something important in the daypack.

- Paul

Paul,

I reckon they would do the job - we have a couple of pairs like that.

Re full blown crampons - I have a set of rubber teeth protectors that go over the spikes, and then roll them up in a canvas bag. They go in the top of a paraglider bag or in the harness when flyinh and I don't want them to spike me. Most climbers strap them on the outside or top of a pack. When walking with them - takes a bit of getting used to - pretend you have a nappy on is the best description I have.

Thanks Heym SR20 (I won't stoop to 'Heymie', that's my rifle's name),
I'll give those ersatz crampons some thought.

Ozhunter, what do you reckon? Also, what's the story about the Wild Deer show? I do expect to get there at some stage.

- Paul

Have used Grivel and Stubi gripper plates but would not recommend them is steep Thar country.

Gidday

Leave the poles at home if you want to see any game, the noise alone will be enough scare everything into the next valley and drive everyone with you nuts, much less the look. If you need to, ask your guide to cut you a "nibby" or stick of manuka or lancewood, musterers and old guys like me use them going downhill to save tumbles and knees.

Personally unless you can do an ice and snow course before you hunt I'd also leave the ice axe and crampons at home. NZ geology dictates very steep slopes (unlike any of those shown in the posts above) and if you venture across a snow chute you're only the blink of an eye from trouble. You can see plenty of Tahr without going into those sort of places.

Have a look at few Chamois or Tahr threads (not the mostly potted hunts shown elsewhere on AR) and you'll get an appreciation for the country you'll be in. It's been a long time since I guided the odd Aussie informally in our hills but without exception if its your first time in the South Is you'll need a while to get the hang of the country - nothing to worry about,just means taking some time.

Best thing of all is to start easy with a goat or wallaby shoot in the mountains, but not real tiger country.

Cheers

Foster

Thanks Foster,
I'll have a think about what you've said. When hunting sambar in steep country I sometimes find a stick to steady me down a slope (unlike you, we have trees at the top of most hills).

I have hunted in NZ twice before but still consider myself uninitiated in real tahr country.

As a 60-year-old Aussie, however, I may not have enough time or the interest to cut my teeth on Kiwi goats and wallabies, though doubtless they offer more challenge than ours do.

After failing to get among the tahr last year because of rain and high water, I'm going to try to get dropped off above the rivers this time - even if it does mean a freezing tent instead of the warm hut.

Adam, do you mean the Stubai 'Crampon 6-point' or the entire range? Whichever, they look closer to crampons than the toothed chains I was considering.

- Paul

Sounds like you're getting onto it, huts are a good place to stay away from if you're serious about game.

Have you spent some time on http://www.fishnhunt.co.nz/forum/YaBB.cgi , as per usual with the 'net there is a lot of bullshit but also a lot of good stuff.

Sounds like your are going unguided (good on ya) but if at all possible find someone to go with.

I know " time is of the essence" but getting a feel for terrain and the hill before committing yourself is time well spent I think. Fly into Chch or Queenstown and get out for a couple of walks before you go into the bigger country. I've taken several folks on just that sort of hunt over the last few years if you will be at the bottom end of the SI.

Thanks again Tentman,
That fishnhunt forum has an interesting thread about winter tahr, covering many of the aspects you guys have mentioned. The story about crampon toe spikes locking into the back of the boot certainly caught my attention.

I'm intending to hunt with an American AR member who has hunted NZ tahr before and might fly into Queenstown. I'm getting as much exercise as I can (though Rothke et al would say it's not enough) and will ramp it up through autumn. By NZ standards it will never be enough, of course, but with luck I'll survive even if I don't get time for those training hunts.

Is altitude sickness often a problem below the snow line when you come in by chopper?

Nothing in NZ is high enough to give anyone altitude sickness.

I think lots of folk get fitness of body and fitnes of mind mixed up. At 50 I don't do any fitness training these days apart from working hard on my small farm (from an office job) (well sometimes I do, I row and ride horses etc) but last hunt was a typical one. I was out with a very "fit" 22 year old who runs etc. We carried packs - 2500 feet climb right out of the car. I thought the young bugger would kill me, but no, I just kept one foot in front of the other and "rolled up". He was as happy as I was to rest up a couple of times. We made a 2500 foot climb followed by a 1000 foot descent to a hut in 3 hours. Thats not quite as fast as I might have done it once if I was trying to impress someone, but its OK.

A level of futness is essential, but so to is having a "mental picture" of what you need to achieve to get to the hut/campsite/tops tec and thats why I advocate getting out for a few preliminary "walks" with no pressure on yourself to get a feel for how much effort it takes to "climb a face", or "walk up a riverbed" etc. Especially for us older guys !!

Yes Foster,
hopefully I'll have enough fitness to get one of the slow/low ones and make it back to camp by tea time.

My hunting mate last year was young and very fit. He suggested running was good for building respiratory fitness, though it doesn't really prepare the legs for climbing. I try not to run except for trams and would just as soon die on the hill as from a heart attack while training for it.

Ozhunter, I don't suppose anyone you know of at the Wild Deer show sells crampons? I was about to buy some on the Internet but my book says they should really be fitted to your boots.

Cheers
- Paul

Crampons are fully adjustable so one pair will fit multiple boot sizes. Mine have a good three inches of length adjustment. But you want to adjust them in the warmth of your kitchen, rather that at -20 in a blizzard when you need them.

Paul,
More than likely, if you need them you might only use them to get across a frozen ice field once in a while. So if you'd like I could loan you a pair.
That is if I come down to the SCIDU show. tbc.
Oh, and don't get into this type of country;

Mt Tutuko.
Regards,
Adam.

Thanks men,
Well, if they can be adjusted at home, now is as good a time as we've seen for a while to get some from OS, I suppose. But since this trip will probably be the last hurrah for me as far as tahr are concerned, maybe I could borrow yours, Adam, if you make it down to Bendigo. My cousin would prefer to go on Sunday but if Saturday is better, I'll see what I can do. If all else fails the shop outside Yellowstone will doubtless have something to send me.

Your picture reminds me of Hillary's description of the South Col. I'll try to keep off that one

All this help much appreciated
- Paul

Well guys,
the Grivel crampons have arrived, along with a spool of the strongest light cordage I know of (in case I have to get down from somewhere steep).


Gadgets fill the pockets, they dangle from neck and belt. The overflow fills the auto-trunk, and also the trailer. Each item of outdoor equipment grows lighter and often better, but the aggregate poundage becomes tonnage.”
Aldo Leopold, 'A Sand County Almanac'

What rope cordage did you get Paul.

It's 5.5mm Blue Water Titan, Denis. It's only accessory cord as far as rock climbers are concerned and, being a bit slippery, loops should only be tied with triple fisherman's knots. But since it's tested to 2200kg, I figured it should stand any weight I could put on it, while being more compact than proper climbing rope.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
It's 5.5mm Blue Water Titan, Denis. It's only accessory cord as far as rock climbers are concerned and, .

No that is not the reason: Climbing ropes must be soft to damp the falling energy softly (not to "destroy" the climber) - while accessory ropes are stiff and have no damping - this will kill you on the spot if you fall more then 2m and get hold by such a kind of rope!!!

The impact would be too high!


Of course for some reasons they are OK as well, but not as a climbing rope!!!

Thanks scubapro,
Your info presents a scary scenario and new ideas for ghoulish executioners.

However, my cord would be for emergency purposes only, to be looped over a rock to give me 10 or 12m of descending ability, after which I might untie the knot to get my cord back. Any thought of it having to soften that kind of fall is beyond my intent. The only other rope/cord I envisage would be a 5mm cord tied on to each side of this loop with prusik knots to slow my descent - but I have not yet worked out how I could stop these from causing the Titan loop to rub back and forth against the rock or roll around it.

I don't suppose you know of a prusik-knot type arrangement that could work to keep both sides of the Titan loop still and together, being able to be moved down the cord when I take pressure off the knot/s? I have a couple of books on knots here, so just mentioning the name might give me a start.

Thanks if you have any ideas

- Paul

If you are using it to decend you would most likely be using 2 x Prusik or Kleisterman knots ( same thing) to control your descent step by step.
one is locked while the other is moved sequentially ( works on doubled rope) ........this is typically sufficient to maintain the top loop central.

If you are really worried about abrasion in the center loop you can buy a couple of metres of suitable sized double braid polyester yaching rope & strip the centre braid out of it , using the outer braid as an extra cover you can slide the rope thru to centre & then serve the yachting rope cover onto your climbing rope.

Of course you are going to test & train with your 'emergency" decent rope at home .......
Older bones like yours & mine mend slowly , my friend.

its not the dropping that does the damage its the stop at the bottom, whether that is mother earth or a non-stretchy rope is irrelevant.

Thanks Denis,
on a single rope it seems people can ascend/descend pretty quick using the two prusik knots. I doubt if one friction knot could be used to hold two ropes together as I need to happen, though. I was thinking of putting a prusik on each side of the loop then tying the bights together out just far enough to let them be moved down the rope when not under strain, perhaps with a figure-8 or 'overhand on a bight', but this doesn't allow the step down business.

Maybe I could use the twin prusik knots just as a safety back up and employ a munter hitch for the actual descent, since my book shows that working with two parallel ropes running through the 'biner.

That back-up should deploy within an arm's length, hopefully saving the life-threatening shock. Any thoughts on that one?

- Paul

Prusik works on doubled rope just as well as singled rope.
Using a 'biner' & munter hitch to control your descent , only one prusik is required as a safety backup
its tied short below the 'biner with your lower control hand between the 'biner & the prusik.
your lower control hand automatically pushes the prusik down the rope .

The prusik must come tight before it enters the 'biner if you were to let go of the rappel rope............or need to stop

The prusik loop and your 'biner bridle can't tangle with your control hand between the two.
You can only get into trouble if the prusik loop to your harness is simply tied incorrectly & too long.

set up correctly the "fall" distance for the prusik to lock up is only a foot or 2 ......so the impact is not great ........if it happens.

I prefer the kleisterman ( french prusik) for this as I find it slides easier when not under pressure & grips more when it is under pressure
( that might just be me).
I have seen the kleisterman used both loop -up & loop-down..........IMHO it works best when loop-up.

I have used the kleisterman to hold my boat at an angle on anchor with an adjustable bridle & to hold up to 1/2 ton of gear suspended under the boat when I have encountered tangled gear I could not haul aboard without untangling it .
It works on slippery ropes like P/E (commercial trap rope)...........just needs a few extra turns( polyester rope for the loop).
He He..........if it works on P/E it will work on your slightly slippery emergency rope.
I would not be worried about it generating enough friction so long as you use polyester rope for the prusik loop.
( I typically use 5mm spectra core with a braided polyester outer for my "prusik" loop rope.........the loop rope should be smaller dia than your rappel rope to grip best).

obviously, test it yourself at home before settling on your "emergency" kit & set-up.

FWIW

Thanks again Denis,
I will read your post again soon to to digest it better. You'd think the academy that guards the French language would have froglicised the Kleisterman by now . I must look it up elsewhere as the word doesn't seem to occur in either of the books I've got. I would have thought that having the prusik above the munter hitch would limit a fall more but, as you suggest, having it below gives it a double-action safeguard.

Cheers
- Paul

Kleisterman was developed by one Heinz Kleist IIRC.

for some reason its more recently been referred to as a "french prusik'.........or more correctly ........a version of the french prusik.
IMHO the kleisterman is a more effective & user friendly knot as a backup to a munter on a 'biner when rapelling...........and far more effective & user friendly in repositioning when the loops are being used as "steps" when climbing freehanging rope ( up or down).

Mawson would have found the Kleisterman very handy to know when he fell in that crevass after a snowbridge collapse in his epic Antartic trek............but I don't think it had been invented then..........it or any of the other sliding blocking type knots using loops.........so he had to haul himself out hand-over-hand after many unsuccessful initial attempts.

The difference between Prusik & Kleisterman is:-
The Prusik opens the loop and places multiple wraps inside the loop( always working towards the middle)

The Kleisterman wraps the loop around the "climbing" rope(s) and then passes the tag thru the loop ( with the loop close to the climbing rope)........so its generally easier & quicker to tie.

The Kleisterman ( done correctly) generates more leverage from tension in the tag tied to your harness & thence compression on the climbing rope for the number of wraps used.

there's also a difference in the way the compression is generated by the loops.

In the Prusik, half the wraps are trailing & half the wraps are leading the tightening loop
irrespective of which way the prusik is moving on the climbing rope.

with the Kleisterman all the loops are either trailing or leading depending on the direction of travel on the climbing rope.
Its a fact of life that the trailing wraps are easier to move & leading wraps generate more compression when tensioned by the tag.

so the Kleisterman is easier to move down the rope when not under tension and generates more compression & friction when weight from the harness tensions the loop & wraps.........when the loop tuck is on the top of the knot form.

the kleisterman is much less effective in locking on the climbing rope when its tied loop-down as it loses stroke length in its leverage ...........Like any knot .......there is a right way & a wrong way to tie it.


what you use is up to you after trialing their effectiveness before you deploy it in the field.

trouble in searching stuff these days is that the same thing is called a bunch of different names by different people & the older original names tend to get downlisted in search engines by more recent & more popularly used names.

you end up with a particular knot called 4 different names and the same name used for 4 different knots & it becomes mighty confusing.