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Fellow AR members, What are some real world velocities that you have actually chronographed using the .41 and .44 magnum from a 7.5" barrel (or something close)? I am looking for 210 and 250-265 gr. velocities for the .41 mag, and 240 and 300-320 gr. velocities for the .44 mag. I have done extensive searches on the internet, but there are discrepancies of up to 200 fps between major manufacturers. Thanks, Jesse | ||
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"Between major manufacturers"? Are you asking about factory ammo? Just want to clarify....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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No, I am talking about reloading information available from Hodgdon, Accurate Arms, etc. | |||
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Those of us in the know and with hunting experience, NEVER care how fast the load is. The only purpose of the loading manuals is so we do not go under or over listed loads. We only load for accuracy first and will just chronograph good loads for interest. | |||
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I think he just wants to know how accurate the loading data is with regards to velocity claims. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Thanks for adding something USEFUL to the thread BFRshooter. | |||
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Did I say something useless? I am just trying to figure out exactly what you seek......  I too think that checking velocity is more of an afterthought. Accuracy first. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Whitworth, You have been nothing but cordial and helpful in trying to clear up my posting. My previous post was referring to BFRshooter and his thinly veiled attempt to imply that accurate velocity data is reserved for weekend warriors who really don’t KNOW anything about hunting and ballistics. I posted the question looking for someone to post some of their chronographed data. I was not looking for someone's negative comments about my hunting knowledge and abilities. Consider the post closed. I will look elsewhere for the information. | |||
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Ruger, I some data (including chronograph) for the 44 mag out of my Ruger Super Blackhawk (7 1/2 barrel) for both 240 and 300 grain cast bullets. I am only interested in accuracy loads, and I did find some at the top end. As I recollect (and I will post again later) a healthy dose of H110 gave me around 1300 fps with the 300 grain bullet and was my most accurate load. I just went by the book and also used some data from Linebaugh and Paco Kelly if my memory serves me. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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. What seems to be the thing here is there are different uses for a pistol , and different needs ..........With bfrshooter he seems to be able to hit stuff long ways away and so he focuses that way ... myself I rely on a handgun to #1 keep me alive and from being mauled by a bear ... [ Do a search of the Anchorage daily news for frequency of maulings ] .. I am interested in the most ft.lbs. of energy I can get , combined with a wide meplate bullet that will penetrate straight and deep ... Any one who says velocity doesn,t kill has very limited experience with big animals up close .. [ the 44 mag 300 gr bullet doesn,t do anything like the 416 Taylor or Rem mag . 300 gr bullets .. the difference is speed ...] with 20 gr of W 296 powder or H110 I got right around 1175 -1200 fps from 3 different 44 mags. . just about the same with the 320 gr ... I didn,t have enough time or resources to fool around with long range accuracy with those loads , but that load did save me from getting bit , and I hid behind 2 of those revolvers on a couple other occasions .. For me all the 100% reliable speed I could get I wanted , and I chronographed them .... I think shooting stuff long range with a pistol is fun , but not too necessary for me ..... .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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I've never shot or loadedd for a 41 mag, so can't help you there. For the 44 mag, I've found it follows the book velocities within 50 fps, typically dead on. A 7 1/2" 44 mag will push a 300-320 gr cast bullet an honest 1300 fps using a max load of H-110. I've also driven them 1300 fps out of a 4 5/8" gun, but that was loaded a bit over max charges. Book max in the 4 5/8" is ~100 fps less than the 7 1/2" data. It was also spot on for 240/250 gr bullets using unigue 7 gr @ 700 fps, 10 gr @ 1000 fps. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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Ruger -- I think you are reading too much into his post. He's got a lot to offer as far as reloading experience is concerned especially with the .44 mag...... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Ruger, all I meant was that if the load you pick is a little slower then what is listed but shoots like you want it to, THEN FORGET THE DIFFERENCE. If you feel you NEED that 50 fps more but the load shoots for crap, why do it? This had nothing to do with your abilities or experience, only the fact that NONE of the books can be matched and to try and match the velocities can result in poor accuracy or too much pressure. Sometimes you just might get higher velocities then what is listed but it is so rare it is not worth thinking about. Those guys that have been loading forever know published figures are never what you will get so by the very fact that you asked shows a lack of knowledge and little experience. Your response shows nothing but a chip on your shoulder even though you know I stated the truth. I don't remember saying a single thing about you in my answer! I only stated that accuracy comes first when working loads and 50 to 100 fps less then book figures will not mean a thing. If you don't know by now that every manual will give different velocities for the same loads, don't jump on me for stating the fact that accuracy is the primary goal. If it wasn't, manuals would only give ONE load and nothing to work with. Do we have another Me_plat here? | |||
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Way to go BFR, drive off another new member! Ruger, I checked my file and this is what I have recorded on my targets. Please note that all loads quoted are based on my experiences with my guns and should be worked up carefully using standard reloading practices. All the loads are very accurate. Ruger 7 1/2 barrel 240 gr. SWC 24.5 H110 1411 fps 300 gr. SWC 20.5 H110 no velocity figures 240 gr. SWC 11 WW231 1409 fps S&W 629 6 7/8 barrel 300 gr. SWC 20.5 H110 no velocity figures 300 gr. SWC 17 AA#9 1279 fps. Again, these are not my highest velocity loads, but rather my most accurate "useful" loads. I have other accurate (but not more accurate) loads. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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I use the loading data for a guide and a chronograph to make sure a particular load isn't too max for a particular firearm. I also am one who wants to know how fast I can expect a load with a particular set of components to go. Some of my revolvers have shot faster than the book, but most shoot slower. The same load will give different velocities in different revolvers. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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gumboot, if muzzle energy is what you require, then I would suggest leaving the handguns at home. A .22-250 generates (this is calculated, not measured) way more ME than any .44 Magnum is capable of, yet I wouldn't use one on anything big and angry. Last year, I witnessed a friend shoot a long-horn bull with his .450 No. 2. The animal was quartering towards him when the 500 grain bullet struck the shoulder. Despite the 5,000 + foot-pounds of ME, the bullet turned a hard right and ended up in the ham -- not the offside ham. The animal was unimpressed and unhappy. The bull, weighing nearly a ton, was taken out with one 425 grain flat-nosed bullet from his .500 JRH. Do the math, as it is "generating" right around 1,700 ft-lbs....... Large animals tend to be unimpressed with "high" handgun bullet speeds and more impressed with caliber (frontal area) and weight. Sorry for the thread highjack....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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John "Pondoro" Taylor wasn't impressed with velocity or muzzle energy. I would bet good money that by the time of his death, he'd had a hell of a lot of more experience killing big dangerous game than you have gumboot. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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gumboot458 wrote:
OK, since I hunt hogs -- some fairly large ones, I might add -- let's say you back me up with your .416 Taylor since my 7.5" Ruger SRH with a 320 grain WFN-GC at 1350 fps is obviously undergunned.Any hog I can't cleanly kill with my .44 magnum is yours for the taking with that .416 Taylor. Be ready for LOTS of action -- until I shoot, that is. That little .44 with no velocity to speak of just does the job cleanly and efficiently. So if you take up my offer, I hope you don't get bored -- because I seriously doubt there'll ever be a need for the back-up power of that "speedy" big-bore...   Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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i load h-110 in my 41 mag with 170 sierras and the speed and accuracy is better than 210s out of my marlin also,the books are not too far off just work up your loads. | |||
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.... .,,, Well if Pondoro wasn,t impressed with energy then why did he describe in such good detail killing different animals with different large rifles ... The larger the rifle the more energy it created ....I,ve killed too many large animals with rifles to consider even remotely that the 44 mag can come close to a 416 and if you want to come up here , I,ll walk you in on a nice big brown bear and get it nice and agitated for you , then you can show me how well your 44 does ...... It wouldn,t suprise me if the 44/300 gr doesn,t kill as well as the 300 win mag or an 06 , with the win mag you are heading toward the energy of the 416 taylor , but even with killing shots a bear will run off when hit from a 300 same as when hit with a 44 /300 with a 416 usually they just hit the ground ,game over lights out .. . There is a good reason why most coastal bear guides carry a 416 or 458 ,,, It,s called velocity ...  .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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Because the larger rifles used larger projectiles. Actually, he made the statement to the effect muzzle energy figures were good only for selling new rifles and cartridges to the inexperienced and uninitiated. The man had a wonderful sense of observation. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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Ti 4 in 41 mag with ports most vel I can ring out of this is 1050 with 210 gr bullets many differant powders tried. 44 mag 5.5 inch red hawk and 2 7.5 inch super blackhawks 315 gr cast unsized un gas checked 22 grs of H110 1320fps. Sized and gas checked very accurrate load 1240 fps 250 gr swc 8 grs of herco 900fps nice light paractice load. | |||
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Peter, why did you post a 231 load that is 3.5 gr's over book max? I also see one other load that has crept over max for the boolit weight but is OK in the Ruger. And then you say you have faster loads??? The 300 gr load for the Ruger is low so it is OK but for the S&W is getting to max. I am very concerned about the 231 load given to a newby. Running the boolit to the magnum velocity of over 1400 fps with that fast powder is asking for a handfull of scrap metal. I also notice some of your loads are a much lower velocity then book figures for even less powder? From all appearances, it looks like your quest is the highest loads you can shoot, trying to match the books. Was I really trying to drive someone away by telling him to load for accuracy, ignore book velocity figures and just follow minimum and maximum figures? Did I deserve to be jumped on by him? Yes, I could give him velocity figures but he would not be happy and might keep trying to increase his loads. I feel it was right to keep him away from the velocity bandwagon because no other gun will match what was used for the published figures. Neither is the equipment used and some figures are corrected to muzzle velocity, not the 10' figures. I feel you are out of line accusing me of trying to drive him off when you post a load that might drive him to the hospital! Your comment that you have faster loads is a sure way to entice him to add more powder. I do not consider you a safe and ethical handloader by passing on what might be unsafe in his guns. You are breaking rules! What is it about velocity that drives some to get giddy? | |||
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Exactly. All of the Nitro Express rounds run real sedate velocities. The .600 was rated at around 1,950 fps -- definitely not scorching by rifle standards today, yet it clobbers by virtue of it's size and weight. Speed kills bullets...... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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This is Normal behavior for BRFSHOOTER. In Hodgdons 2007 annual Manual it lists for W231 and the 240 gr SWC bullet 11 .0 grains for 1334 afps at 38100 CUP. It also lists 11.0 grains with the Nosler 240 gr JHP at 1272 fps at 37800 CUP. Also a quote by PETER: "Again, these are not my highest velocity loads, but rather my most accurate "useful" loads. I have other accurate (but not more accurate) loads. Peter" Typical jumping with out looking. | |||
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Me_plat, I guess you are correct. I had to go to the site and they do show 11 gr's. I have 5 books and none show that much. Has the powder changed burn rate since Hodgdon took it over? | |||
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Maybe not 7.5" barrels.... but for 41 mag. But in a 4 5/8" black hawk 293 hardcast went 1275 with 19 grains of H110 4" Taurus Titanium 293 grain at 1050 fps with 17 grains of H110 and 1150 fps with a 265 hardcast and 19 grains H110. -------------------- THANOS WAS RIGHT! | |||
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BFR, I guess I should have been clearer. I do not have any higher velocity loads on file, I just stopped when I achieved the accuracy I wanted with the "useful velocity" I wanted. I tried to state all along in my (two) posts, that it was accuracy I was after not just velocity, but, with the guns and calibers quoted, a "bullseye" load was not needed. I still think it is possible to answer someone's question without talking down, lecturing or preaching to them. My caveats about appropriate load procedures was also included. I also referenced Paco Kelly and Linebaugh. I believe that the 231 load is from one of those places. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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sorry guys but i dont think he was trying to belittle anyone. He was just sharing knowlege that about ANY handgunner with any kind of field experience knows. Ft lbs of energy isnt what kills with a handgun. The ability of your load to penetrate to the vitals in any circumstance does. Ive dont enough game killing and penetration testing to know that velocity can actually hurt your field performance. Especially with jacketed bullets. Most handgunners worth there salt will tell you that a general rule of thumb is to shoot a heavy for caliber bullet at about 1200 fps and if you needd more power then that sell your gun and step up in caliber and do the same. Take the 45 colt for example. Shooting a 320 at about 12-1300 fps is about optimal. It gives a good combination of hitting power and penetration. Kick that up to 1500 and penetation can actually decrease. (now im talking cast bullets as there about the only projectiles worth a pinch for dangerous game) If you need more power then a 320 at 1200 fps its time to step up to something like a 475 that will shoot a 420 grain bullet at the same speed with a larger metplat. that will give you simular or slightly better penetration and more hitting power. There is way to much store put into velocity when it comes to handgun hunting and i think bfr was just trying to state that. He wasnt doing it to belittle anyone, he was just trying to share his experience and knowlege. Maybe you think im out of line too and if so i really dont care. I dont post on a forum to see my name in writing. I post because i think i have something to say that i learned from my own experiences that may help someone who hasnt been there and done that. Bfr may sometimes have a poor way of expressing himself but so what! He is just trying to help and has probably helped more people on these fourms then has been helped by others on here. These posts are owned by the man who starts them and ANYONE has a right to put in there two cents and if you dont like it dont post or you can just ignore what a man says. | |||
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My full power load from my 41mag 6.5" Blackhawk is 20.5 grains H110 pushing a 210 grain bullet (jacketed or cast). Chronograph shows 1335 ft/sec. with little deviation. Individual revolvers may have a great difference in velocity with identical loads because of throat, barrel, or throat diameters as well as tighter or looser cylinder to forcing cone gap. The single shot pistols will give much greater velocities usually due to the fact that there is no place for gases to escape exept out the muzzle. Dennis Life member NRA | |||
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I apologise Peter. I am wrong once in a while and admit it. I just can't believe they were able to load 231 that hot without a problem when it is 10 points faster then Unique which has a max of 11 gr's also. (No, I didn't research the latest info.) I can't afford a new book every year anyway. I rarely use the powder and never use more then 7 gr's for plinking. It is a great powder but I never knew it was so flexible. I don't think the powder manufacturer knew either. I have found the same thing with Varget though. Hodgdon says it won't work in the calibers I asked them about but I proved them wrong and am getting super results and accuracy. The stuff actually works in the 7BR and 7R with 120 gr bullets. They told me it was too slow. Velocity is high and it burns clean plus it is the only powder that gives me accuracy with that bullet and my twist rate. | |||
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Exactly, Lloyd! Well said re: pentration vs. caliber and bfrshooter. Thanks for posting this. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Reloaded for 13 different .41RemMag handguns and 3 .41 Caliber wildcats. Funny thing about that is that after years of shooting loads that would suck the air out of any space within 10 feet of me I finally settled on a single load of for all my .41RemMags. It is a 250g cast from BearTooth or CPBT over 18.5g of 2400. With that load I get between 1134 and 1287 depending on the gun. The guns are S&W 657, Ruger Blackhawk, and T/C Contenders. They were chronographed at 15 feet with a Chrony Bata Master and later on a CED M1 Chronograph. This load has cleanly killed big critters from a bowel loosening 10 feet to 67 yards. BTY I have been reloading since 1965 and I never use book loads to expect any published velocity there are just to many variables. Love Those .41s' | |||
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BFR, no apology necessary! I focussed on the first part of Ruger's question, and you I suspect focussed on the second part: "I have done extensive searches on the internet, but there are discrepancies of up to 200 fps between major manufacturers." Now, I just need you to go out and buy yourself a nice FA!!!!!! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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This is my first post here, good morning to everyone! It sure would fun to have all you gentleman in the same room, and have someone ask a question! Have a good day John! | |||
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Actually I suspect that discussions in person would be a lot more civil than they tend to be here. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Yes I suspect they would. One can tell the mood or tone of ones intended speech pattern and demeanor when they are speaking in person. I am sure I have taken things wrong at times on here but that is the chance anyone takes when posting on a forum. The old saying "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen" applies on forums. But I don't mind one bit in person to tell someone what I think and I temper that based on their demeanor and how they present themselves when we are speaking. Be nice in person and I will be nice. Be the opposite I will be there toe to toe. It doesn't matter to me as I am not out to win a popularity contest. | |||
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Spot on  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Lloyd, I understand the others on here, but how can you say "Ft lbs of energy isnt what kills with a handgun. The ability of your load to penetrate to the vitals in any circumstance does."? If the bullet has zero foot pounds of energy, how far do you think it might "penetrate"? I truly wish this forum had a Handgun HUNTING category. Handgun Hunting For our friends who prefer to bag their game the hard way Reloading Reloading Topics Your Favorite Loads - Share Them With Us RETIRED Taxidermist | |||
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A 40 grain bullet @ 4000 FPS from a 22-250 has 1954 FPE my 500 Linebaugh with a 525 grain bullet @ 1100 FPS has 1410 FPE Which would you choose for one of these?  I know which one I'd choose and it aint the 22-250 _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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