george, here is a little info for you on the Mechanics Of Terminal Wounds. This should get you up to speed with the reat of us providing you can read and comprehend

Here you go george,

Shooting Holes in Wounding Theories:
The Mechanics of Terminal Ballistics

II. a. Mechanics of Lethal Wounding

Since the understanding of what causes effective wounding is prerequisite to any discussion of the desired terminal performance of a bullet, let us first examine the mechanisms of wounding which result in incapacitation and death.

Rapid death is brought about only by brain death (i.e., the collapse of the central nervous system). Brain death can be caused directly by damaging the brain or upper spinal tissue, or indirectly by depriving it of oxygen. Oxygen deprivation is the result of cardiac arrest or of hemorrhaging which reduces blood pressure or damage that completely shuts off the circulatory function. Thus rapid death is accomplished by causing the collapse of the central nervous or circulatory systems.

The single most important factor in wound lethality is bullet placement. This cannot be overstated. It is true that sometimes a direct hit on the brain by a bullet is not instantly incapacitating (read Massad Ayoob's "terminator" story from several years ago), but generally this is because that portion of the brain struck is the relatively "unimportant" part associated with cognition. Hits against the base of the brain or the upper spine are almost always instantly fatal because these regions control the involuntary vital functions like heartbeat and respiration.

In the case of hemorrhage resulting from damage to the lungs or arteries, brain death will likely occur prior to cessation of cardiac function; the time required for brain functions to deteriorate to the point of unconsciousness depending on the rate of hemorrhage. However, when damage is done directly to the heart, the circulatory function may be arrested first, leading to unconsciousness within a few seconds. There is another mechanism of cardiac arrest that is less well understood but which may account for the nearly instantaneous death of game animals hit with modern weapons and that is induced cardiac fibrillation and arrest. The precise mechanism for the onset of the cardiac arrest is not fully understood, but its effect is well documented. It may involve some type of local neurological or humeral communication between the heart and lungs that gets short-circuited. Alternatively, a violent wound to the lung tissue may create a tiny embolism that interrupts cardio-pulmonary function at a critical moment.

Other than hits to the central nervous system (brain and spine) or the unpredictable mechanism of spontaneous cardiac arrest, the only reliable cause of rapid death is through hemorrhaging produced by cutting a hole through major blood-bearing organs (heart, lungs, liver) or major blood vessels (e.g., aorta). The dimensions and especially the location of the cavity produced by the bullet will determine the rate of hemorrhaging and in turn the rapidity of the onset of death. It is actually more lethal in some cases to sever the arteries directly above the heart, than to penetrate the heart itself. If these arteries are cut, blood pressure instantly drops to zero and death will follow in seconds (this is one reason why an arrow can kill as fast as a bullet). Lethal hemorrhaging does not depend upon how much blood exits the body, but only upon the loss of blood pressure. A bullet which exhibits both expansion and deep penetration is desired. Three things are worth noting: 1) hemorrhaging in the thorax is far more severe in the case of pneumothorac injuries (collpased lung) than in vascular tissue such as muscle, due to the relative pressure difference between the pleural space and the cardio-vascular system, 2) the surface area of the wound, not its volume, is most related to the rate of hemorrhage, and 3) the body's natural response to hemorrhage, coagulation, is more pronounced in extremely violent wounds which rupture thrombocytes, releasing fibrin into the blood (in other words very sharp cuts generally bleed more freely and longer than ragged, macerated wounds - although a cleanly severed artery may spasm and close, whereas a torn artery may continue to bleed).

Based upon research to estimate the minimum lethality required to cause a game animal to collapse from hemorrhage within 10 seconds (or 100 yds) from a wound caused by an arrow (Jan Friis-Hansen, "Mesolithic Cutting Arrows: Functional Analysis of Arrows Used in the Hunting of Large Game", Antiquity, No. 64, 1990, pp. 494 - 504), the minimum lethal wound surface area for ideal performance by a bullet can be similarly estimated. In practice, a bullet will require a somewhat larger area to offset the crushing mechanism of cavitation which promotes coagulation. The formula adapted from this study for minimum wound area is:
Minimum Wound Area: MWA (cm2) = [ 1 cm2 / 15 kg Body Mass ] + 60 cm2


Important caveats are necessary here. Only penetration and cavitation in the thoracic cavity through cardio-vascular tissues produces effective hemorrhaging (unless a major artery is cut). In other words, the penetration and cavitation produced in muscle and gut don't count toward this measure of a MWA because it does not bleed as freely or in the volume of heart, lung and liver tissue. This MWA value is based on a shotline transverse through the thorax (hitting heart and/or lungs). The thorax depth assumed here is based on a line passing between the number 4 sternal ribs above the heart. The figures presented are approximate, as animal anatomy varies by species and individual.


That is just a partial of the full dissertation that can be found and read here:

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/mechanics.html

How much better can it be said? Great article and makes me want to stay with two holes all the more.
He mentions ragged tissue and that is what I see here with the neighbors using rifles that are too explosive on deer. Ragged, torn tissue tends to seal very quickly and even though the wound is fatal, even small deer can go a long way and the blood trail will stop very fast.
I have hit deer with my .44 that took off at high speed yet never made more then 30 yd's. I have seen rifle shot deer go a mile.
Isn't it strange that arrows kill the same way as a boolit?

jwp475, if you took the time you would know George does not need your cut and paste schooling. I am more than sure if you shut up and quit letting your canary ass over run your alligator mouth, and get your ego out of the equation. That you would see George is very knowledgeable in the hunting world.

Just because you don't agree with him does not make you right either. If you have not noticed, your comments and attempt to belittle George only makes him laugh, he has got you so upset and he is just sitting back laughing at you. And you keep playing into his hand.

Never argue with a fool, others may not be able to tell the difference. George you know I told you that many times..lol


BRFshooter, I am going to PM you about your arrow comment. No need bringing this issue back up here.

Look, I'm through arguing as it is futile over this damned internet. So, I am not going to enter into the fray. That said, I think that George's assertions that we were refuting the laws of physics touched a nerve when that was not the gist of our arguement. We were voicing our opinions on the how a bullet and arrow kill. JWP is simply showing that our side of the arguement has very good backing. Yes, he doesn't seem to want to let this go, but I can assure you he is not upset in any way, shape or form. But alas, this is all I am going to contribute to this thread. Gentlemen, play nicely!

Wow, was I diplomatic, or what?!

Whitworth, I thought this was over, it gets old when one guy just does not move on.

Yourself, brshooter and myself moved one and things between us are back to normal as I see it. So we don't agree 100%, but we still respect each other enough to know when enough is enough.

Whitworth, I really don't have any issues with you OR your opinons save the portion that jwp isn't "upset". The hell he's not. He's been like a kid with hives since I told him his assertions were in violation to the laws of physics and biology. He's been like a cat covering crap sniping at me across the bands of this forum and you tell me he's not upset???


I'm assuming by "We were voicing our opinions on the how a bullet and arrow kill.", you're in agreement with him. That's OK. That's YOUR opinion.

As for his c&p, there's absolutely nothing in there that I don't agree with. The trouble with jwp is that he's bending what's actually being said to fit his myopic opinion. Did you notice how the author uses "most", "many", "usually",and "often". His last paragraph even admits that anatomy of individual animals differ and their structures cause different reactions. Absolutely no mention is made of "shock" either, though if you've ever butchered an shot animal, you know the tissue damage NOT CAUSED BY THE BULLET CAVITATION CHANNEL. Any high school student knows that the heart is controlled by a separate nervous entity along with the brain. Systemic nervous system shutdown often does NOT stop the heart from beating longer. However, destruction of the heart muscle will quickly deprive the brain of oxygen and result in subsequent central nervous system failure.

And not one damned bit of that information has anything to do with a backup gun carried for large bears except that if you shot a grizzly in the heart with a .22, it would eventually die, but probably a helluva lot later than you'd die from damage it would inflict. When a "backup" gun is called into play, most literate individuals would quickly admit that "bullet placement" doesn't seem that big a concern as it might have with the primary firearm. jwp just got called out on a stupid remark and instead of being man enough to admit that, he's taken to attacking me personally, even to the point of making a separate post of a c&p to validate his interpretation. ( That damned sure sounds like he's upset to me.)

Yes, I have no bone to pick and no argument.
I just point out that a revolver boolit and an arrow still both kill by bleed out. Where the revolver boolit does not have tremendous energy. I have shot many deer that showed almost no reaction and did not run from the gunshot. Same with the bow when many deer were shot that only reacted to the noise the arrow made hitting the ground on the other side of the deer. Several deer over the years continued to feed after being shot with both weapons.
I do have on observation that I have never figured out. Deer shot with a strong recurve with complete penetration almost never bolted and ran any distance but deer shot with a heavy arrow from a faster compound tend to bolt and run farther. Some do, some don't and it is exactly the same reaction I see when a deer is shot with a revolver. Both blood trais are identical with huge amounts on the ground.
It baffles me that an arrow going through a deer faster will make them run where a slow arrow does not in many more cases.
If I count right (Numbers are getting lost.) I have killed somewhere between 225 and 235 deer with arrows and maybe another another 135 to 140 with various guns. Most with round balls from a flintlock, etc and many with handguns.
The round ball is almost the same as the revolver with a massive blood loss and about the same reaction to being hit.
I have often stated that the average time until death with these three weapons is 10 seconds and the article confirms it.
To stop really large dangerous game, much more energy is needed unless you are safe until bleed out.
Most of the rifle hit deer I have shot or seen shot that were bang-flops had total shutdown from energy transfer but also had massive meat damage along with a lot of bloodshot meat. I for one, do not like this for eating purposes and prefer the deer just runs until it dies.
By the way, Whitworth has never bow hunted and doubts the killing power of a bow. It is my job to turn him into an archer next. He is missing out on a longer season and a lot of excitement.
How about you archers helping to turn him for me?
I am a pauper when it comes to deer shot each season. My friend shoots no less then 17 a season and last season he shot 19. He uses rifles but did use a crossbow on one and was surprised how effective it was. He lives in another state and gives meat to poor people.
I had to quit with 5 last year because I could not get rid of more meat. I can only do with 2 for myself. I will not shoot what can't be used.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:

1- jwp475, if you took the time you would know George does not need your cut and paste schooling.


2-That you would see George is very knowledgeable in the hunting world.



3-Never argue with a fool, others may not be able to tell the difference. George you know I told you that many times..lol

1- I beg to differ. george needs all of the cut & paste schooling that he can get..


2- Oh I see, it certainly shows....


3- I am glad to see that you are trying tio help his dumb ass as well...

jwp475 I refuse to go down to your level, you will just beat me with your experience.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by george roof:
Whitworth, I really don't have any issues with you OR your opinons save the portion that jwp isn't "upset". The hell he's not. He's been like a kid with hives since I told him his assertions were in violation to the laws of physics and biology. He's been like a cat covering crap sniping at me across the bands of this forum and you tell me he's not upset???


I'm assuming by "We were voicing our opinions on the how a bullet and arrow kill.", you're in agreement with him. That's OK. That's YOUR opinion.

As for his c&p, there's absolutely nothing in there that I don't agree with. The trouble with jwp is that he's bending what's actually being said to fit his myopic opinion. Did you notice how the author uses "most", "many", "usually",and "often". His last paragraph even admits that anatomy of individual animals differ and their structures cause different reactions. Absolutely no mention is made of "shock" either, though if you've ever butchered an shot animal, you know the tissue damage NOT CAUSED BY THE BULLET CAVITATION CHANNEL. Any high school student knows that the heart is controlled by a separate nervous entity along with the brain. Systemic nervous system shutdown often does NOT stop the heart from beating longer. However, destruction of the heart muscle will quickly deprive the brain of oxygen and result in subsequent central nervous system failure.

And not one damned bit of that information has anything to do with a backup gun carried for large bears except that if you shot a grizzly in the heart with a .22, it would eventually die, but probably a helluva lot later than you'd die from damage it would inflict. When a "backup" gun is called into play, most literate individuals would quickly admit that "bullet placement" doesn't seem that big a concern as it might have with the primary firearm. jwp just got called out on a stupid remark and instead of being man enough to admit that, he's taken to attacking me personally, even to the point of making a separate post of a c&p to validate his interpretation. (1- That damned sure sounds like he's upset to me.)[/QUOTE]


Again you show your inability to read, comprehend, and grasp the facts....



george again you fail to grasp how funny your dumb ass is with your paper hat.... May the leader of the paper hat brigade carry on, because you are extremely entertaining (george, that means FUNNY). no knowedgeable person accutualy would take you serrious.. I know that you take you serious and that says it all.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
By the way, Whitworth has never bow hunted and doubts the killing power of a bow.

I hunted with a compound bow for a few years, and shot competitive archery for longer then I hunted. Definately a lethal way of taking game, but there is something mystical about rifle hunting!

When I get older and have more game under my belt I may be back into bowhunting, but for now I loooove my rifles and pistols. But that is clearly my opinion and doesn't impact the fact that both bows and rifles kill well

I don't doubt the killing power of the stick and string, but they make no noise and have no recoil, plus I like the smell of burnt smokeless powder in morning -- it's smells like victory!

jwp, I can tell your dates are all pickups at family reunions. If you're into that, I guess the gene pool will always be closed to you. I have no idea of the intent of the "paper hat brigade" is intended, but assuming you're still in kindergarten, I guess that's OK as well.


MOST of us here are just average people who enjoy shooting and hunting without any consideration to "fame or fortune". Then there has to be some pencil pecker bent on impressing everyone who takes issue to anyone questioning him. You want to start talking about "bully", you'd better look down at your own keyboard. You've done everything short of putting on your tutu and tap dancing to get me to "prove" something to you. Nothing I say or do will ever meet YOUR approval, so do us all a favor and just shut the hell up.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
jwp, I can tell your dates are all pickups at family reunions. If you're into that, I guess the gene pool will always be closed to you. 1-I have no idea of the intent of the "paper hat brigade" is intended, but assuming you're still in kindergarten, I guess that's OK as well.


2- MOST of us here are just average people who enjoy shooting and hunting without any consideration to "fame or fortune". Then there has to be some pencil pecker bent on impressing everyone who takes issue to anyone questioning him. 3- You want to start talking about "bully", you'd better look down at your own keyboard. You've done everything short of putting on your tutu and tap dancing 5- to get me to "prove" something to you. Nothing I say or do will ever meet YOUR approval, 6- so do us all a favor and just shut the hell up.

1- Of course you don't.. Your CLUELESS

2- You're the one with the book.. You also let us know how you Bull Shit the uneducated in your SO Called CLASSES.. Class less I'm sure


4- WTF are you talking about now

5- You prove something? Now that'll be the day

6- By the word "us" do you mean you and your little "bitch"

Hey, george is that Avatar a picure of you? Brutal

jwp475, your are an Internet tough guy. You can talk crap behind the safety of your keyboard.

I doubt you would call me or anyone else a Bitch to our face. You might end up with dentures before you actually require them.

So why not go and take your medication an stay off the big boy forum. I think Barney is on TV today...

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
jwp475, your are an Internet tough guy. You can talk crap behind the safety of your keyboard.

1- I doubt you would call me or anyone else a Bitch to our face. 2- You might end up with dentures before you actually require them. So why not go and take your medication an stay off the big boy forum. I think Barney is on TV today...

1- So the the Bitch is you. I guess that takes the guessing out of it...

2- A tough "Bitch" uh...

OK, guys, you have to quit. We are all here to learn and I think experience is the best teacher. I am inclined to listen to those with the most experience.
If anyone doesn't like my opinions, so be it. Everyone has to live and learn and the best teacher is failure. We all fail, I have failed but I go on and learn from it. I don't run to book figures to solve the failure. I study what happened and try to correct it.
If you fail with a back up gun, let me know where the funeral is.
If you want to see failure in the making, look over the new archery equipment and broadheads fit for bunny's only. You no longer aim for the chest cavity, you have to aim for ONE artery.
George, if you are using the new stuff to compare, then I have to agree with you.
Ask Whitworth, I was showing him the broadheads being made. He just shook his head. I have a more dangerous pencil!

Oh yeah?! My dad can beat up your dad!!

Okay guys, enough is enough. We have gone far enough with the back and forth. Let's get back on topic without slinging mud, rocks, excrement, or whatever else is handy. I know for a fact that if we were all in a room together we would discuss and debate like adults, and we wouldn't act like we are on a playground. That goes for all of us, me included (jeese, I sound like an adult!

No more threats or name calling or I'll beat all of your asses -- and I'm reasonably sure that I am overqualified to do so. There, that felt better!

So, jwp, George, Redhawk, can't we all just get along?? That is the rhetorical question of the day.

Whitworth, I wasn't aware that I wasn't "getting along" until the little inbred showed up with the playground bully attitude. Now I find that anyone who writes a book is stupid while a guy that's married to his sister is a genius. Guess I'll just be stupid. I never started this fight and I tried to end it peacefully, but the little midget continues to sling crap. I fail to see why you guys who seem to have it all together continue to protect the little maggot. If one of my friends was in over his head, I'd tell him to back off and shut up, but the two of you just keep making excuses that "he's not upset". Then what is he, psychotic?

This is priceless. Grown "men" acting like 2nd graders. Keep it up guys, this is funny as Hell.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
Whitworth, 1-I wasn't aware that I wasn't "getting along" until the little inbred showed up with the playground bully attitude. Now I find that anyone who writes a book is stupid while a guy that's married to his sister is a genius. Guess I'll just be stupid. I never started this fight and I tried to end it peacefully, but the little midget continues to sling crap. I fail to see why you guys who seem to have it all together continue to protect the little maggot. 2-If one of my friends was in over his head, I'd tell him to back off and shut up, but the two of you just keep making excuses that "he's not upset". Then what is he, psychotic?

1- You not aware is an understatement....

2- You have been told and proven wrong beyound a shadow of a dought and yet can not comprehend and that is why you are the leader of the paper hat brigade you mental midget..

jwp, behave!! Come on now, knock it off.

OK, here's the deal. I figure I've adequately exposed jwp for what he is to enough people capable of independent decisions. I'm stopping this and allowing him one last shot at me unless he starts another post showing his ignorancetoward me personally. But I'm done with both these posts for his comments. I won't even acknowledge having read them and deal with the real issues at hand. How's that?

Let's just agree to disagree and move on

quote:

Originally posted by Buglemintoday:
Let's just agree to disagree and move on

Amen brother!

george,I see your up to your old tricks of wading in and pissing people off with your condescending atitude.Must be something about febuary.carry on.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
OK, here's the deal. I figure I've adequately exposed jwp for what he is to enough people capable of independent decisions. I'm stopping this and allowing him one last shot at me unless he starts another post showing his ignorancetoward me personally. But I'm done with both these posts for his comments. I won't even acknowledge having read them and deal with the real issues at hand. How's that?

george, now you think that your work here is done. I suppose that you think you are some kind of Super Hero form the comic strips.. WOW

The only thing that you have exposed is your ignorance of handguns and the way that they kill. You are not a handgun hunter by your own admission, therefor you have no experience on the subject,yet you proceed to tell every one here how wrong they are and how right you are. You wrote a book so you have to be right, right. WRONG....

I would like to discuss "Books". There are two kinds of the written word. Those that were written by smart people that did the work and those that think they know but have no clue.
I wrote a lot and sent things to magazines. I learned to fool deer, I found out how to tune the compound for broadheads and I invented the first lighted bow sight. I figured out how to make revolvers shoot like a rifle out to 500 meters.
Nothing sold and was returned--WHY? Because I was always a meat hunter and never killed a book animal. If you are the biggest, stupidest boob in the woods and luck into a book animal and by luck you kill it, you are famous and can write any damned thing you want and they will publish it.
Funny that all of my stuff was stolen, my bow tuning method, my lighted pins and my case tension issues with revolvers and MUCH more. I should have never sent anything to anyone. I was poor without money for patents and attorneys.
Do some research of all the gun rags and see where they test big bore handguns--RIGHT, 25 stupid yard's. They gloat over 2", 25 yd groups from a ransom rest.
Then they test the new super-duper magnums on game and tell how they blow them to the ground. Do they want just the head? Do they want the meat too? Or does most of the animal go to waste?
Then there are two kinds of readers, Those that believe every word and those the evaluate what is said and compare to actual experience. If you have zero experience you will say to yourself "Gee, those guys are smart". I will be able to go out and shoot a HUGE animal by following what this guy did or shoot all of my bullets into the same hole at 1000 yd's because this guy shot a super group at 25 yd's. My gun will blow EVERY animal off it's feet no matter where I hit it. ENERGY KILLS EVERY TIME! Yeah, so does 4# of plastic explosive!
Get real, I can see who reads and who does the work! Animals DON'T READ and will screw you up every time.
OOPS, I have to change something because big bucks must read because they are never where the writer said they would be.
Then again they are where the food plots are and are fed huge amounts of minerals and are SHOT, not hunted, from elevated houses with peep holes and magnum rifles. Real damned exciting! If you call that hunting, maybe you need to read some more rags, you will get more excitement and worthless information that way.

bfr, you seem to have a lot of pent up emotions about writers and books. I'd like to use your analogy of deer not reading to tell you that all writers don't fall into "two" categories and neither do readers. That's exactly why I wrote the book I did. They are just hunting stories,none embellished to omit the screw ups and mistakes, just simple little stories that every hunter goes through. There are no world records in there, just ordinary "personal trophy" type animals. Even in the book I make the same analogy as you have that deer never bothered reading a book. It's really a fun book that most hunters could easily put themselves into and was endorsed by the NRA for just that reason.

As a freelance writer, I have to tell you that the days of the celebrity outdoor writer are long past. I have a book filled with letters from Warren Page along with a few notes from Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor. Those are keepsakes to me, but name one universally recognized outdoor writer today. Jim Carmichael is excellent, but he's faded away. Jim Zumbo managed to shoot himself in the ass with an ignorant comment. Somehow Craig Boddington's writing doesn't capture my attention the way that Peter Hathaway Capstick did. Andy Russell is a spectacular writer, but unless you're from the northwest or Alberta, you probably never heard of him. Everything today is instant gratification and DVD's/videos. Writing is a losing proposition.

Secondly, hunting is enjoyed by only 20% of the American population, many if not most, over 50 years old. That means that any outdoor book is going to get very limited exposure and virtually none outside our group with the politically correct atmosphere of today. There's just no money in writing unless you're already at the top of both journalism AND hunting. If you don't have a degree in journalism, you can safely look for another day job.

Next its stolen ideas. I've had my share and I worried too much about them. One day I came to realize that no idea is original. I see it every day. I coined the phrase "buzzards luck" in a 1980 column meaning that even when you win, something had to die. Look it up on Google now and see what the new meaning is and who they attribute the statement to. When I got to Vietnam in 1967, I was assigned a job in "safety". My first poster, hung over the Tan Son Nhut operations shack said, "Close only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades". It was a statement using an old baseball comment with a real message attached. Today, the source of that statement is "unattributable". You just have to accept things like that and move on.

Finally, if you've ever written a book, you'll learn quickly that perhaps Hillary Clinton can make $5 mil on something she never had a hand in, but normal people cannot. After you write a manuscript and finally find a publisher, your pockets better get deep. The publisher wants $1000 plus up front to WORK with you on the publishing. You then sign a contract that will give HIM 40% of everything you make off sales. Then you find a printer and the fun starts. A book like mine costs YOU around $6 a copy to print.They tell you the more copies you have the cheaper it is and that's bullshit. If you print 1000 copies that cost you $6000 (paid by you up front) If you get 5000 copies, it will cost you $20,000. So more is not better if you have a budget and like eating 3 meals a day. Then come the proofs. Your first copy is just on plain bond paper without numbers. Once you OK that, the second copy comes back with numbers and each page has a sheet. Even blank pages are in there and you can't mess up their order or you'll screw the printer up. You have to proof this copy again. Then comes the draft run. The sheets are reduced to size, numbered and laid falt in order. Now you have to proof it again. And remember, you can't just proof what you wanted changed in the first one, you have to reproof the whole book to ensure they didn't change something you liked. The next one is the draft print where the pages are back to back and numbered. They have to be reproofed. Then comes the final copy with cover attached which also needs proofing. By this time you're so damned fed up of proofing your book youre sick of it. Then comes the final print.

Now you have to find a distributor (like Amazon). They make you sign away 40% of your profits as well. So now, the book you spent $6000 to print has it's price jacked up to $15 per copy for sale and you get about $3 off each copy you sell. When the book doesn't sell, and it won't, you end up making about $1 per book. So all you got out of writing a book was a Library of Congress Number and to see your name in print. You're out about $3000 for that privilege. So anyone who thinks writing a book is "special" really hasn't ever been there.

George, you have stated it EXACTLY the way it is! I never expected to make money and did not have deep pockets. I just wanted to pass on some knowledge and maybe get the recognition that it was my idea. My point was that they are not interested in anything unless someone with a famous name writes it even if what they say is WRONG. No easier way to get famous then to stumble into a record animal. Another way is to be rich to start with or go broke doing it yourself. Everyone has their hands out though.
Yes, the good writers are almost gone and I don't have anything against good, honest stories.
I am against all those that say they know it all and get published to spread untruths that they never actually did the work to find out that they are wrong. Seems as if all the magazines from the Rifleman, Handloader and all the rest do nothing now but cater to advertisers. I have not gleaned any useful information for many, many years from any of the magazines.
I feel that if you stack up everything written today in the rags and try to compare it to one post on our shooting sites, we will shine right through as the smartest.
Be aware that my letting off steam is not aimed at anyone here. It is because of the state of our sports and the pushing of products and ideas that hold no water.
When I read good information with actual facts, it is like a breath of fresh air. But there is a lot of stale air out there.
How many of you have gone into a sporting goods store and talked to anyone that knew his butt from a hole in the ground? The old days are gone!
Look at the work Ken Waters did. Now as new calibers, guns, powders hit the market, there is nobody doing the work and we are left with almost no information. The rags push factory loads.
Thanks for allowing me to vent!

Having spent a number of years as a magazine writer (both as a freelancer and a staffer) on the automotive side of Primedia (all of the Peterson titles were Primedia publications), the sad truth is that advertisement drives edit. They are in the business of selling ads -- not magazines. Circulation numbers help sell ads, but circulation doesn't contribute much to the bottom line, and they have to sell ad space to be profitable. That is the unfortunate truth of the publishing racket.........

Thanks, my feelings exactly.
I called Handloader and asked why they never tested certain guns and handloads. They gave me a nasty answer and told me thay had already done it. I searched every handloader I have until I found it. Zero information! Nothing but a passing glance with one gun. The guys attitude was what made me buzz. Me, a lifelong customer, didn't even deserve some respect. They should print on toilet paper!

That is exactly why I stopped subscribing to magazines a long time ago. I can and do learn more on this and another forum, than I ever got from any magazine. Now, if the good people here would stick to "trading ideas and secrets" we will all learn more.

BTW, I like reading posts by bfrshooter...I usually learn something.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
BTW, I like reading posts by bfrshooter...I usually learn something.

I too have learned much from him.

bfrshooter, acctually has a lot of experience.

Not trying to flame here, just maybe I mis-read something? A revolver bullet kills by bleed-out? WTH does that mean? Does that mean a hog I killed in S. Texas with a .357 MAG "blead out)? Man, he sure did bleed out fast. It could have been because of the massive clump of maroon-colored jello that used to be his heart. The bullet did exit but was a small hole as it was a very hard-cast bullet. He died very quickly only took a few steps and there wasn't enough blood on the ground for "bleed-out). My guess is he died of a heart attack, seeing as how he had no heart. And, the damaged tissue mentioned above was most definitely there. The "CRUSH CAVITY" was easy to follow. Not sure about blee-out though, maybe his heart just stopped pumping oxygen to his brain.

quote:

Originally posted by .530Woodleigh:
Not trying to flame here, just maybe I mis-read something? A revolver bullet kills by bleed-out? WTH does that mean? Does that mean a hog I killed in S. Texas with a .357 MAG "blead out)? Man, he sure did bleed out fast. It could have been because of the massive clump of maroon-colored jello that used to be his heart. The bullet did exit but was a small hole as it was a very hard-cast bullet. He died very quickly only took a few steps and there wasn't enough blood on the ground for "bleed-out). My guess is he died of a heart attack, seeing as how he had no heart. And, the damaged tissue mentioned above was most definitely there. The "CRUSH CAVITY" was easy to follow. Not sure about blee-out though, maybe his heart just stopped pumping oxygen to his brain.

I had to clean screen after laughing so hard. That was a good one...

530, you have hit exactly on what can happen. If you shoot the next 500 pigs the same way, how many will react the same way? I have seen too many deer run over 100 yd's with the heart blown up, yet some that were not hit there or in the spine dropped at the shot.
Every single animal will react different and to say every one will drop with a shot like that does not prove anything but that you have not shot enough animals that way to confirm it.
How do you know every single bullet you put into an animal will hit the exact same nerves or cause the same trauma?
Since it only takes 10 seconds from the time blood pressure drops to zero and the animal collapses, how can you say what happened? Was it not total blood loss or did you shock the brain?
All of you that explain what one animal did when hit just do not have enough experience to claim that is the way it is.
Seems to me that without a heart, there is zero blood pressure, it means bleed out on the highest order or did you mean the animal did not bleed out? What happens to your engine when the water pump fails? Can you drive 50 miles to the garage?
You either hit the animal in the brain or spine to shut everything off right now or you caused massive blood loss.
Maybe you have a better explanation to bleed out then I do, please explain it to me.
We have been talking normal revolvers here too, not high power rifles that have enough energy to shock the whole system.
I sadly knew a jerk in Ohio that could not shoot for beans. He shot a small doe with a 12 gauge slug, got a bad hit and had to track it down in the snow. Shot again and she took off. When he finally got the deer down to stay, he had 11 slugs through it. Total hamburger, total mess.
You stand there and tell me that your measly revolver will drop every pig in it's tracks! How unrealistic can one person get?