Was a park ranger for 6 years, played with lotsa bears. Black bears in the east always scared me more than Griz in Alaska. Had several bluff charges from blacks and none from Grizz. Unless you have lots of experience with a handgun and have fired it lots in combat training situations you are better off with a air horn for a bear repelant. Those small air horns are light in weight and a blast from that puppy will fry a bears mind.

some quick bear stories,

150 pound or so Black takes over a pickanic table and all the food on it in NC, family sets the family pet of it, mutt dog. Bear mauls and kills dog then wanders off into trees.

500 pound interior Grizz ends up in my basement. Chase the bear out by shooting cracker rounds down basement steps with 12 ga, had 5 slugs in next, bear runs back out through splintered door and I pop em in the butt with a rubber slug at 30 feet. Bear stops and looks at me like "hey what the heck was that for"

300 pound interior grizz spends 2 hours trying to break into my bear resistant food container. Finally gives up and leaves. At times the bear sat on its ass and held the container in it's lap looking at it as it turned it over and over.

I like bears and trust them more than any stranger I would meet on the street. I still have my 10mm Glock on me in big bear turf though. Same as I do on strange people turf

I also carry a G20 with a 5" KKM barrel and 22lbs recoil spring for my small bear gun. What loads do you carry? I carry my own reloads with 190gr Sierra FPJ and 200gr Hornady XTP's @ about 1300 fps

10mm's are the answer

for NC carry in the woods or in the truck I use the winchester factory silvertips. They are hot and I have killed enough deer and pigs and Yotes with them that I am sure they will do the job on anything or anybody around here. Expand fast and penitrate enough for small bear and down. Best example was a pit bull mix I shot in the face at 15 feet, large heavy dog and the bullet or part of the bullet exited out its right rear leg leaving a 2 inch hole. Also shot a 200+ pound boar in the shoulder and ribs,,,good instinctive shooting double tap at 20 feet without aiming,,,pig scared the shit outa me, I thought it was my cat making noise untill it was that close. The rib shot exited the other side and the shoulder shot lodged in the off shoulder after going through both shoulder blades.

When I was in AK I carried corbon loads. They were about as hot as the silvertips, shot to the same point and were a better penitrating bullet. I just purchased 2,000 rounds of 10mm brass and plan to start loading some for the Glock 20, I have a 6 inch Alkemy???? arms ported barrel on mine.

I was going to stay out of this one but here I am.
Some very good advice is to found in this post
If you are a pistol shooter number one keep that
Fine Colt. It can give you more joy and teach you
More than most people can. I have asked and thought a lot about your same question. Most
Of your answer is in the teaching of Keith.
Elmer Keith that is. Your are going to need
A long heavy bullet with a flat nose that will
Go deep and strait. Leaves out a lot of the autos.
The only way to get a stop is going to have to
Be a CNS hit?? Right? It looks like to me your
Going to have to go for the brain and if you miss
Hope it rings his bell hard or hits the spine or enough nerves to slow or stop the beast . As
Far as which handgun?? They all take a lot
Of training. I Watch my girl friend. She
Is nuts about her SA 45 Colt and wants to
Go deer hunting with it. I bought her a soft
Air pistol to work with and she cannot get
The time to train with it. Between work
Grown kids and grand kids she don’t even
Get much sleep at night. I think most of
Us fall into this story of life. When the
World turns to crap you have to be able
To pull back the hammer or click off the
Safe and find the front sight with out even thinking about it.

Practice is hard to come by these days now that I have 2 small kids,,,,they are either sleeping and I cant make the noise or I am playing with them,,,slip away a couple times a week to shoot though,,play with the 10mm while waiting for the rifles to cool. My shooting bench is on my lower porch and I have reactive targets set up all around the same porch in the woods from 10-40 feet for handgun practice, and I shoot them fast and from about any position imaginable with both hands,,,left handed is a hoot. I almost always get a couple of clips off every week,,,thats 30 rounds with my 10mm. Easy to make these targets, I just have heavy steel plates hanging from a couple of stout chains under a piece of rebar bent into a U and stuck in the ground, plates are from 5 inches "close ones" to 10 inches, "far ones" I hardly ever use the sights unless I just want to make sure thay are still set correctly and I have a 10 inch plate at 50 yards for that, check for fresh marks on it. A full clip into the same target will bend the rebar back,,,,,,If my shooting bud comes over with his 10mm then we may go through 500 rounds in an afternoon.

If you do not practice with a handgun and keep it with you and accessible in the same location every time it is a liability not an asset. You think you can depend on it and get in over your head then ohhhhhshit the lack of training will get ya hurt.

I know a 10mm is small for big bears and I would not go looking for one with it, but in a fast action in my face megapucker situation I want my 10mm I shoot all the time ove a 454 megaboom hand cannon I may have shoot 20 times. When I shot a boar in my back 16acres, I thought it was my cat coming through the brush, critter was trotting and I nailed it twice inside of 20 feet, no aiming and did not even think about drawing and shooting. I shot alot back when I worked LE and keep it up now that I am not.

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
I own the S&W 500 w/ 8 3/8 barrel. It is the most powerful handgun in the world I would say the 500 in the 4" barrel would be better tho.

Oh no it isn't!
There's ALWAYS Bigger!

Look up 600 nitro express revolver...

You don't have the biggest any more

Unless you're already very proficient with a handgun one would not be my first choice. I shoot several and imagine that accuracy would suffer significantly with a bear intent on having me for lunch as a target. Frankly a 40 auto is not adequate. I'd opt for nothing less than a 44 mag, or 45 Colt in Ruger or Freedom Arms that will handle hard cast cast bullets weighing at least 300 grains, preferably more, in +P loads.There are several that are bigger, like the SW 50 and 460 HVR but they are a real chore to shoot without flinching.
Suggest a high quality pepper spray specifically intended for that purpose.That way you don't have to worry about caliber much less bullets.
Studies show pepper spray is more effective in stopping a charging bear that most any gun.

One thought on pepper spray....if the wind is blowing from the bear to you it will a) deminish the range of the spray b) blow it right back into your eyes. c) make your sorry a$$ more tastety for the bear

Bob

Mr Garrett's comments on the subject:

"Mr Garrett is preaching to the choir here. But worth reading if you have not seen it."


http://www.garrettcartridges.com/031000.asp

quote:

Originally posted by JohnK007:
From the natioanl Park Service website.
http://www.nps.gov/yell/planvisit/rules/index.htm
Do what you want, but I suggest that if you're that concerned about bear attack, consider vactioning somewhere else. Having to look over your shoulder because wou're worried about being eaten alive by Mr. Bruin or arrested by Mr. Ranger doesn't sound like a fun vacation to me.

Couldn't have said it better Charlie

From years of being one of those LE ranger dudes I know that many, many, backcountry people are armed,,,including off duty rangers. I also know that many NPS LE rangers get a real thrill out writing tickets and busting people,,,,main reason I quit,,,, I wrote at least 15 warning tickets for every ticket I ever wrote and most tickets I wrote were for flat out unexcusable offences,,,ya know, punching the ranger and such :^)

Handguns and Bears
Professional insight into a controversial subject.
Phil Shoemaker
Handloader Magazine: June 2003

Excellent article on the subject by a man with lots of Alaskan experience. According to the article, Mr. Shoemaker uses a S&W 629 Mountain Gun in .44 Magnum handloaded with 240-260 gr cast lead SWC bullets.

Back issues of the magazine are available on their web site.
http://www.riflemagazine.com/backissues/index.cfm?type=0

-Bob F.

I read Shoemakers article and donot agree with his assesment he readily admits having no experience with big bore revolvers on bear and Since I have shot them with big bore revolvers I know first hand that a 475 is totaly addequate and dot not consider a 357 or 44 in that company.I have personaly seen a 240 grain 44 mag bullet hit the neck bone of a 1000 pound Bison stop when it hit the neck bone and the animal showed no visable sign of being hit. the bullet was recovered when we dressed the animal so I know that 240to 250 grains are too light and speed does not increase penetration in these revolvers as most people think it does the only calibers in my opion that are adequate start @ 45 caliber with 325 grain LBT stlye flat points and up to 360 grain 475 390 to 420 grain and the 500 Linebaugh with 525 grain these that I have listed are adequate under all conditions if the shooter can apply them accuratley

Hmmmm, my pics would be:

Taurus .454 with 5'' barrel
Desert Eagle .50ae
Para Ordnance .45 with high cap (10 or more)

Grizzly attacks are extreme quick in nature, so it relly does not matter how many rounds your 45 acp holds you will be very lucky if you get of 1 round before he is on you so good luck with the 50 AE and its light for caliber shallow penetrating bullets and your high capacity ACP it is quite apperant with statements like that you have little to no Experience shooting very large and or dangerous game with a handgun THUS GOOD LUCK your surely going to need it Altho with the proper ammo the 454 is adequate

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
A dog [expendable, for warning], pepper sray[ the special bear kind] and the largest handgun you can handle well.

Take a real dog and leave your handgun & hot sauce at home.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Grizzly attacks are extreme quick in nature, so it relly does not matter how many rounds your 45 acp holds you will be very lucky if you get of 1 round before he is on you so good luck with the 50 AE and its light for caliber shallow penetrating bullets and your high capacity ACP it is quite apperant with statements like that you have little to no Experience shooting very large and or dangerous game with a handgun THUS GOOD LUCK your surely going to need it Altho with the proper ammo the 454 is adequate

I disagree. Because he is charging at you means you may have to spray a few rounds or atleast empty the clip. In tactical rushed shooting, you learn in a bad situation you are lucky to hit the target 3 of 10 times. Capacity would be a must in quick combat. Besides that, there is .45 ammo out that breaks the 1200-1300 barrier so penetration is managed by ammo, not everyone uses ball you know. As far as the desert .50ae, I have one with a red dot leupold and I can assure you that with a open face holster, it will get the job done fine. Dont be so quick to judge people on their experience just because they have different or more knowledge than you. This is of course if I read your paragraph right, which was difficult.

I have hunted Large and dangerous game for many years with a hand gun and I own more than one 45 acp and THERE IS NO LOAD AVAILABLE that makes the 45 acp adequite for dangerous game protection. The 50AE and its Light for caliber bullets will be lacking in penetration FOR SURE. I once shot an 800 pound Bison 7 times with the 500 Linebaugh with 435 grain bullets and got only about 5 to 7 inches of penetration, But the 525 grain from the 500 Linebaugh shoots completely through and exits on Bison of about 1850 pounds and this load only shoos about 1130 fps You stated 1200 to 1300 fps for 45 acp ammo speed does not make a 45 acp have enough penetration for very large and or dangerous game. If you woulld like to take a look at this Bison check field photos and stories oun WWW.BuffaloBore.com Many years ago I went the speed route and found that heavy for caliber flat point hard cast to be the very best for this task You also stated that every one doesnot shoot ball which means you are probably shooting hollow points which means even less penetration.Also the 500 smith with 440 grain @1600 fps doesnot penetrate enogh but when this bullet is slowed to 1350fps it penetrates VERY well indeed so velocity is not always the answert and I certainly understand that the CORRECT ammo is paramount if you had read all of my posts then you would have noticed that I listed the ammo that WORKS and I seriously don,t believe that a Grizzly is going to telegraph his intentions so that you can empty your clip

Yes but lets look back at the question, the guy wants a gun around 40 cal-44 mag for BACKPACKING. He is not going to be using this as his weekly hunting weapon. Carrying a .500 would be out of the question. Hunting Bison and taking something for self defense against bear are two totally different settings. For instance, I have heard of people warding off Grizzlies with rubber shot out of a shotgun, that has 0 penetration. People were also discussing some forms of pepper spray. 300 grains soft point coming out at 1400+ would be plenty for self defense. If that wasnt enough, he could put in the 440 corbon barrel in, either the .50ae or .45acp and viola. With the conditions this guy is going to be in and the qualities he wants, I still stick by my 454, 50ae and 45acp statement. Also, if I were the one being surprised, I would seriously be concerned with my recovery time firing a weapon.

GOOD LUCK tHE bISON EXAMPLE WAS TO THE ABILITY or lack of ABILITY to penetrate. If you suprise a bear with cubs whils hiking You will not be able to Ward her of with rubber bullets or pepper spray Use what ever you want Idon,t care I have seen these bears in action and have had one come in on me as I was dressing a moose and if they are determined then you will have to stop them the same as a two legged attacker some go down quite easy and some do not Adequite meens enough power to do the job under less than IDEAL CONDITIONS I sttand on my earlier statement that you have little to no experience with large and or dangerous game with a handgun

I refrain myself from commenting any further on this topic thus it would lead to childish rhetoric answers. I have experience as well as knowledge on dangerous game. Further, read the posts. I am not the one hunting, meaning, whether you care or not means diddly to me. The pepper spray and rubber shot were examples of defense, not recommendations. Just because you saw a bear once and pissed yourself doesn’t make you the God of large game knowledge. This guy wants a defense weapon, not a hunting weapon. Also, I stand on my comment that you seriously need an English book.

quote:

GOOD bear dog is worth its weight in gold when you have a bear messing with you, the best one that I have been around is a mean assed old blue healer

I have to agree with you on that one..I have a Border Collie/Australian Sheperd and a Black Lab that has done there part in keeping us safe on an occasion or two.They are terrific as a team....

Jayco

Gentleman Jack from your previous post I can see that the word Gentleman should not be associated with you!!!!!
Personal insults on the internet are quite childess

The 44 mag with the Federal Gold medal Load using the 250FPJ from Sierra we have harvested several grizzly with this load in SW 629 V Comp 5".

Just my thoughts I have a 4" 500 s&w it would be the only pistol I would even consider. I also have a DE 50 ae &3 44 mags short barrels but from what i have been told by people who have hunted bear is that a bears heart beats so slow that a wounded bear could cover 100 yds after a killing shot. At least they would have a good blood trail to follow to find the bear that killed me.

quote:

Originally posted by tek500:
Just my thoughts I have a 4" 500 s&w it would be the only pistol I would even consider. I also have a DE 50 ae &3 44 mags short barrels but from what i have been told by people who have hunted bear is that a bears heart beats so slow that a wounded bear could cover 100 yds after a killing shot.
At least they would have a good blood trail to follow to find the bear that killed me.

Sad, but sooooooo funny!

I also prefer carrying weapons I am comfortable with. This guy is backpacking, weight is a factor. Defensive is different than offensive.

I have read about bears traveling much ground after being shot a dozen times and really being "dead." I don't have any personal experience on this.

Kind-of glad I don't...

What a bunch of posts - very educational, but let me try to summarize some thoughts.

1. If a griz attacks, a gun (of any type) is better than no gun - although it's probably better to use a air horn. You don't have to aim and hit something with the air horn. Maybe one should carry both - indeed, a combo gun/air horn might be a good thing. When you pull the trigger, the gun/air horn emits a load sound and a bullet. One or the other is bound to work.

2. It's a good idea to practice shooting the gun, such that you have at least a chance of hitting something - especially an object moving very fast toward you - like, at 30 mph. This is especially true, if the gun is very powerful, such as the 500 S&W, for which there is a terrible tendency to flinch. But, would you be worried about flinching as the griz was charging - I doubt it. Of course, a very powerful gun is a both a bullet emitter and type of air horn - the blast and sound from a 454 Casull or 500 S&W is, indeed, awesome and scary in it's own right. I can't hardly stand it myself and want to do something else ASAP.

3. If all these fail, the gun should be at least powerful enough to kill yourself. Who wants to suffer the horrific fate of being mauled and then eaten alive. A gun death is much quicker and more humane.

May we never encounter an angry griz in the woods. Happy safe hunting/shooting/hiking, etc. AIU

I have never been mauled by a big bear, so this is only my opinion based on what I do know. A Model 83 in .475 Linebaugh or .454 Casull with a short barrel is not any more difficult to carry than an autoloader for backpacking. The Linebaugh has a bullet weight advantage for penetration and breaking down an animal intent on bodily harm. The .454 has an advantage in that in the event you have a bear on you and can get off a shot into said bear; you will hit it not only with a bullet, but also a substanial shock from the gas. This concussion has been shown to kill in and of itself. The top end .454 loads generate around 60,000 psi.

I hunt with these revolvers and realize they are considered hunting firearms. However, as I stated at the beginning; they are also packable and practical; capable of going from the holster to under a pillow or bedroll at the end of the day.

quote:

Originally posted by Utahcowboy:
I am going into Yellowstone backcounty this summer. I will be 28 miles back in & in an area none for several bear attacks last year. Just wondering what handgun should I take???
I have a 38 Colt Official police MK III I traded for several years ago. I would amagine that gun on Grizzlies would be like a BB gun on me.
I am cosidering selling that gun or trade but what is the better gun.
I was looking into a 40 cal auto or a 44 magnum. I have always wanted to get a semi auto pistol but wonder if it will be big enough if needed (hopefully not just want to be prepared)
The energy with the 44 magnum sure seems a lot more than the 40.
Any ideas.

New to the forum. I sure like it & it is very informative. Thanks

My advice would be to pick up .44 magnum with a 6 or 4" barrel. Should you need it for bear, bad people or whatever it should suffice your needs.

You're wanting something to help avert a threat from either bear or man, being that far out alone and that caliber can and will do that for you.

Then again, I looked at the date of your post so you've probably already gone on your trip. Hope all is well.

TH

I have hunted and fished all over Alaska and have never been bothered by bears. Most people that are attacked by bears do something that they should not. Here are a few tips. Don't keep food in camp and cook as far away as possible from the campsite. Things I don't take in the woods are bacon and red meat. That really attracts them. If you walk through dense woods get one of those bells that you clip to your pack or clothes (bears don't like suprises) and the noise lets them know you are coming. Most important, if you see a bear DON'T RUN. As hard as that sounds, don't do it. Running prompts it's natural preditory instincts and it will chase you. Face the bear and wave your arms so that it can ID you (bears have poor eyesight and generally will run away from humans). Back away slowly, once it determines you are not a threat, it will normally leave. If you can't carry a gun; get a high quality pepper spray. By spraying the bear in the face (as a last resort) you attack it's two most effective effective weapons for attacking you at close range, sight and smell. It has shown to be effective in Alaska, home of the largest bears in America. Good luck.

I have been reading all of these posts and can see some guys have an inflated opinion of how much stopping power some calibers have. Faced with a charging ANYTHING, I would want a large heavy boolit and as much penetration as could be had. Bouncing .45 ACP's off a bears skull does not sit good with me. Neither do light boolits or hollow points. It seems some guys think the more of these pipsqweak loads thrown at a large animal, the better! I have news for you, it will only make them madder. I have to agree that a .475 or at the least, the .44 with heavy boolits is no harder to carry then a 1911 and it would NOT be in a backpack in bear country.
If anyone is going to depend on a handgun for peace of mind or to stop an actual encounter and is afraid of big guns or can't hit with them, he better stay home and shoot enough to get good at it before going where he fears to tread.

How would a .45LC 240g super hard cast bullet from Mt. Baldy bullets fired from a Taurus Tracker do at velocities between 900 and 1000 fps? I have two different loads at these levels. I think I could get a shot(s) off faster with it than with my Super Blackhawk shooting 300g bullets.

I would go to a hard cast 300 or 335 gr. Like the LBT WLN and not put my faith in a 240 gr. I have shot a lot of deer with 240's and was not pleased with the penetration on some of the shots. The hard cast is MUCH better then a condom bullet like the XTP however. These things hardly go through a small animal like a deer, many times stopping inside without hitting bone. When I think of the huge muscles and bones on a bear, I would never use anything but hard cast with a big meplat.
Your 240 hard cast is better in every respect to the jacketed bullet and might be OK. I have no experience on bears. But when a bullet stops in a deer, I would never carry it in bear country.
Rifle hunters use large calibers and big tough bullets. You need to do the same with handguns.
I see the same problems with archery hunters that use super light arrows going very fast, that only go halfway into deer, wanting to use that stupid setup for elk, moose and bear. OK, I guess, bears get hungry too.

Try to hit the woods when the Bruins are busy....

If you're going to tote anything under the power of a 44mag into the woods for grizzly protection, be sure to file down the sharp edges all around the frame. This way it won't hurt so bad when the bear crams it up your ass!!!

I don't sweat this issue much and without the internet I bet about 10% of people that participate in these discussions actually have a need to. But, these discussions will always, hopefully include a very relevant post like the excellent one that Poletax provided. Doesn't this really amount to a debate about the superiority of your chosen handcannon? Probably one that doesn't get a lot of range time with full power loads?

One gun that makes sense to me is the 4" Dan Wesson model 460. Shoot it in IDPA with .45 ACP. Need a little more power? Load it with .45 Super or .460 Rowland. Really going to be walking around without a powerful rifle in Griz country? Load it with .45 Winchester Magnums. Then, if your six cranial ocular shots fail to stop the Griz, you have the fastest of speedloaders, full moon clips.

A DA revolver makes the most sense, but if you buy a S&W Mountain Gun in .44 Magnum, what are you going to shoot most of the time, .44 Specials or light magnum loads, Dirty Harry? Taurus does make a 5" .454 that you can also use the the heavy .45 LC loads in, but if I shell out the bucks for a lifesaver, I doubt it will say Taurus on it and 6 rounds are still better than 5. Ruger SRH Alaskan with a 2.5" barrel? If Bill Ruger were still alive, I don't see that one even getting out of the factory. Just my oppinion, but I see the Model 460 as something that might actually have some practicle purpose, other than hypothetical ones.

The file down the front sight joke. Why are there people out there who still think thats funny?

As for bears in Denali Natl Park, I spent 5 summers working there. I had several bear encounters and all ended well. Never carried a gun in the park. There has never been a bear attack where someone has died in the park. Your head is your best protection in bear country. Read up on their behavior and learn how to react to them.

Denali Grizzlies usually do not go over 450 lbs. These are the same animal as the coastal brown bears that go over 1000. The coastal bears have a large protien source, salmon, while the inland grizzly depends more on berries and ground squirrels. Same bear different diet.

Grizzlys and brown bears rarey eat people after an attack. Its the exception to the rule. Thats a black bear thing. Browns attack when threatened or hurt. The maneater thing is just silly. Thats why you fight a black bear if you are unarmed and attacked. They will eat you. A brown will keep on you till your no longer a threat.

Ill get off the bear soap box and move onto the guns.

Sometimes ive carried a 12 guage into the bush, others a 44, and even a 45 ACP. In denali nothing. A friend used pencil flares. Fire hazard sure but they gave him peace of mind.

Would the 45 work?

Depends on several factors. Size of the bear, ammo choice, shooting ability(round placement), Bears physical/emotional state, and just sheer dumb luck.

Couple years ago a man killed a brown by the russian river with a 9mm. Lucky? Hell yes.
But he had a controlable caliber with high ammo capacity. Cant argue if it worked because the bear died.

Last summer I spent the day fishing within 50 yards of several brown bears on the russian river. No gun. If youve never been here you cannot possibly imagine how many fish are in a 1-2 foot deep river. The water is literally red with spawned out salmon. The bears could care less about me as long as I respected their right of tonnage and moved up or down the bank with them.

That shotgun was kinda heavy backpacking miles and miles on other trips.

On the othe end there are stories of super big calibers unable to bring down a bear.

When fishing a shotgun might do but just not practical.

Bottom line anything is better than nothing. Be realistic know your weapons stregnths and weaknesses. Make the best ammo choice for the weapon you have. Practice with the darned thing so you can use it instinctively when you need it. Use your head.

Be aware out there and do not let the thought of bears around every corner keep you from enjoying the great outdoors.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
The only handgun worth its weight for large bears is the 4 inch 500 S&W

I agree 100%

I really don't wont to shoot a grizzly with handgun......much prefer a good rifle or shotgun with Brenenk Mag Slugs at close range.

A handgun only if your under the bear!

Yes he killed the bear with FMJ 9mm round but that was lucky shot not to be repeated. Don't recommend the manstoppers in big bear country.

Well, there sure are some divergent opinions and interesting information inthis thread. I guess what surprises me most are the comments about .500s and 435-grain bullets. The standard Army load for the .50-70 Springfield was a 450-grain .512 bullet at 1250 feet per second. This load killed humans, horses and hundreds of thousands of bison with authority. Grizz too. Buffalo Bill earned his name with this rifle and these ballistics feeding buffalo meat to the railroad workers building the Kansas and Pacific. Why a 450-grain soft lead bullet at 1250 from a BP rifle should work so well, and a 435-grain bullet from a Linebaugh should fail so miserably at the same task is troubling. Is the Linebaugh that much slower with this bullet?