Ms has posted about this and I have to agree 100%. I have been appalled at some of the responses and refused to comment. I have no idea where the hatred comes from. I go to many sites without this spoilage to what could be informative.
If you firmly believe in something, that is fine, don't jump on others that believe otherwise. Learn to get along.
I make a lot of jokes and get slammed when I try to be a little funny to lighten things up. When I put smileys in I am just funning everyone including myself but it is taken very seriously. This is not the place to get angry.
Stop and think a little. If everyone here got together, shot together and hunted together, I am willing to bet we would all be fast, lifelong friends.
MS is right so stop it!

Amen!! I couldn't agree with you more. This place is starting to sound like a primary school playground. I attempt to treat folks with respect when I post but when this courtessy is not returned to me, I wonder how you would really act if you were standing in front of me....... The internet has created a culture of rude behavior, with a lack of accountability. I'm sure some of your parents would be appalled at your behavior, and maybe you should think about your folks when you post and see if they wasted a lifetime of lessons, love, and hard-earned-money for you to act like a neanderthal. Just my humble opinion. If you are not shaming your parents, ignore my post........

+1....

Its got to be something in the water ~ ~

While this IS NOT an apology I guess I was already irritated over the Ruger shooting left I posted about which caused me to take what was offered as help to mean I didn't know enough to make a decision about my own gun after having shot handguns for close to 39 years and having been reloading for that long too.
I should not have answerd any of the posts until I was thinking clearly.
The mess that ensued would not have happened probably.

My personal interest in handguns is limited to revolvers. I don't give a hoot about bolt action pistols, contenders or autoloaders so I don't post on them. I surf the forums to find anything that might be of interest to me and whenever the subject of someones shooting accuracy OR Freedom Arms comes up....there's the same poster with a predictable mix of facts and bias. And now you're only kidding. Kinda like the guy that taunts the tom cat and can't understand why he got clawed up...

In the interest of decorum why not respect the shooting or brand preference of others? To put it another way...If you don't like 'em don't post on them.

Because Freedom Arms suck -- face it.......Just kidding!

It is a known fact that I don't like Freedoms and I will never apologise for it. But that is besides the point. Nobody respects my feelings and that is where the craziness happens.
If one of you said you hate Rugers, I respect what you said, I might try to ask why but it is your feelings, so be it. I will not throw it back at you for 5 years.
When I put smileys in, I am pulling your leg. However, the Freedom owners only look for an excuse to pound me again.
But being different from some of you, I don't go off the deep end and cuss at you or call you names.
I sit here and laugh about it. That is what I am talking about. Some of you just can't leave go. That calls for more smileys! When you go off the deep end, this is what you get! However, I will not get angry with any of you. I still respect how you feel.

It's a known fact to anyone that surfs any of a half dozen or so forums that you don't like FA's and are a good shot. It's to the point that someone who may have shot a good group (for them) at 25 yds or someone who just bought a FA would be reluctant to post because you'll be right there to shoot them out of the water.

"Aw shucks thats nothing, I can shoot quarter inch groups at twice that distance with no sights".

or...

"Wait till you try to shoot 460 gr. bullets out of your FA" (Who cares?)

or...

"You have to buy ten FA's to get one that shoots" (Pure BS and you know it).

You may have talked a couple people out of FA.s and you may have some new shooter afraid to post what may have been an accuracy milestone (for him) because your post count may lend some credibility to your comments.

I will not reduce myself to swearing or name-calling on a computer but you talk of "letting it go".....good advice.

Agreed! Let's be friends. I will never mention Freedom again.
I have to be part of this too! I am no better then anyone else and never claimed to be, just that I have tweaked accuracy out of some guns and just wanted to pass it on. Never once have I ever said that you must do it my way, only to try it once. That is why we are here after all, to help each other.
We can discuss things in a civil manner and there is never any reason to resort to name calling. I enjoy a heated discussion and many will disagree with me but not once have I jumped back down anyones throat.
THAT is what this post is about and what MS was saying. Be more tolerant. You can press your beliefs and disagree but don't get angry or hold grudges.

Hello my name is OLBIKER and I have this problem.I am a smart azz,but mostly I say off the wall stuff just to try to lighten the mood!!!

BFR

Agreed. You are entitled to your opinions...my request would be that you don't grind the axe. Besides, after hitting the ripe old age of 60 I've decided to start casting and may have to draw on your knowledge base.....

Guys, Hitman's post didn't need embellishing. I thought he said it quite well. I don't think anyplace in there did he invite us to a Kum Ba Ya songfest. If that's what all this "can't we all be friends" is about, then it's a crock and not what anyone would expect of Americans certainly. We're noted for our "opinions" and they often differ. BFR, I don't want you to stop blasting Freedom Arms. That's how you feel and that's become your reputation, so don't go hide it in the closet.

MOST of the frequent posters on this site are PERSONAL FRIENDS and as I pointed out to Hitman in a PM, got free passes for friendships. Nothing in the world wrong with friendships and sharing joys and sorrows, but a FEW people seem to take extreme delight in poking a bobcat with a sharp stick. When the bobcat reacted in the past, it was the bobcat who caught hell. Now with that post at the top, I don't expect the bobcat to be expected to be a rug. I don't think some of us will EVER like each other, but we can be TOLERANT of others opinions and just stay away from provocations - even if it means placing someone on your "ignore" list. I still feel that this category has been turned into a "custom handguns" forum instead of handgun HUNTING. You don't need to show a wound channel or exit hole to be a hunter. Obviously since I make a living off of dead things, I'd enjoy a "trophy picture" much more than I would one of the inside of a ribcage. Then again, that's MY OPINION.

george, could you direct me to your thread on Handgun Hunting? I must have missed it, thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
george, could you direct me to your thread on Handgun Hunting? I must have missed it, thanks.

A perfect example of why there will not be harmony between some of us. JWP has to beat a dead horse with his smart comments constantly.
JWP, how was your post related to the topic? Besides, George has you on ignore, so your post is pointless and you know it.

Redhawk, I am interested in all of the posts on Handgun Hunting. Why are you so hostile?

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Redhawk, I am interested in all of the posts on Handgun Hunting. Why are you so hostile?

JWP to avoid any more problem and dealings with you. I am going to put you back on ignore. I think it will work out better for the board. You are a true tool.

Redhawk george mentioned not enough Handgun Hunting threads and I hoped that I did not miss one of his Threads on the subject.

I wish that you weren't so hostile, I hope you don't have anger issues.

Hope that you and george make it to the Handgun Forum Hunt, it will be a pleasure to observe and learn a thing or two from you guys.

You see fellows, we MUST discuss boolit effectivness, accuracy, velocity, where to shoot game, how far is ethical for each shooter and on and on because it ALL relates to hunting. Hunting stories are great but get dry real fast without all of the important things that will aid the rest of us, including beginners that have no idea what to use for different size or different dangerous game.
Load information is as important as how an animal walked into your range.
I see no way to separate gun used, sights used, grips used, loads used, boolits used or anything else from a handgun hunting forum.
Tell your stories but be sure to include all of the little stuff that is more important then just pulling the trigger.
I am sure the stories will be better then watching TV with some boob sitting in a heated box shooting 200 yd's over a feed lot with a rifle, then whooping it up about how nervous and exited he got.
I would rather hear about one of you shooting a nice doe offhand with a revolver, then explain all about the gun and loads and what effect it had on the deer. I also want to know what you did all year to prepare your gun for the hunt.
The actual hunt is "bang." Like shooting a tin can.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
You see fellows, we MUST discuss boolit effectivness, accuracy, velocity, where to shoot game, how far is ethical for each shooter and on and on because it ALL relates to hunting. Hunting stories are great but get dry real fast without all of the important things that will aid the rest of us, including beginners that have no idea what to use for different size or different dangerous game.
Load information is as important as how an animal walked into your range.
I see no way to separate gun used, sights used, grips used, loads used, boolits used or anything else from a handgun hunting forum.
Tell your stories but be sure to include all of the little stuff that is more important then just pulling the trigger.
I am sure the stories will be better then watching TV with some boob sitting in a heated box shooting 200 yd's over a feed lot with a rifle, then whooping it up about how nervous and exited he got.
I would rather hear about one of you shooting a nice doe offhand with a revolver, then explain all about the gun and loads and what effect it had on the deer. I also want to know what you did all year to prepare your gun for the hunt.
The actual hunt is "bang." Like shooting a tin can.

Well said, bfrshooter! I agree with you completely.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
You see fellows, we MUST discuss boolit effectivness, accuracy, velocity, where to shoot game, how far is ethical for each shooter and on and on because it ALL relates to hunting. Hunting stories are great but get dry real fast without all of the important things that will aid the rest of us, including beginners that have no idea what to use for different size or different dangerous game.
Load information is as important as how an animal walked into your range.
I see no way to separate gun used, sights used, grips used, loads used, boolits used or anything else from a handgun hunting forum.
Tell your stories but be sure to include all of the little stuff that is more important then just pulling the trigger.
I am sure the stories will be better then watching TV with some boob sitting in a heated box shooting 200 yd's over a feed lot with a rifle, then whooping it up about how nervous and exited he got.
I would rather hear about one of you shooting a nice doe offhand with a revolver, then explain all about the gun and loads and what effect it had on the deer. I also want to know what you did all year to prepare your gun for the hunt.
The actual hunt is "bang." Like shooting a tin can.

I agree, but I don't need to read about how pistol bullets killing people, and what works best in a defense or CCW handgun, in a handgun HUNTING forum.
Talking about hunting handguns and related items are fine. Just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
You see fellows, we MUST discuss boolit effectivness, accuracy, velocity, where to shoot game, how far is ethical for each shooter and on and on because it ALL relates to hunting. Hunting stories are great but get dry real fast without all of the important things that will aid the rest of us, including beginners that have no idea what to use for different size or different dangerous game.
Load information is as important as how an animal walked into your range.
I see no way to separate gun used, sights used, grips used, loads used, boolits used or anything else from a handgun hunting forum.
Tell your stories but be sure to include all of the little stuff that is more important then just pulling the trigger.
I am sure the stories will be better then watching TV with some boob sitting in a heated box shooting 200 yd's over a feed lot with a rifle, then whooping it up about how nervous and exited he got.
I would rather hear about one of you shooting a nice doe offhand with a revolver, then explain all about the gun and loads and what effect it had on the deer. I also want to know what you did all year to prepare your gun for the hunt.
The actual hunt is "bang." Like shooting a tin can.

I agree, but I don't need to read about how pistol bullets killing people, and what works best in a defense or CCW handgun, in a handgun HUNTING forum.
Talking about hunting handguns and related items are fine. Just my opinion.

So do you think that the "mechanics of wounding are different? Would not the wounding mechanics remain the same? How are they different?

Well, JWP, even though it is the same and everything we hunt with works, I think we should stick to game. You have posted great pictures.
I for one, do not need a carry gun for people and lose interest real fast with posts that talk about them. I skip over all of those kinds of things.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Well, JWP, even though it is the same and everything we hunt with works, I think we should stick to game. You have posted great pictures.
I for one, do not need a carry gun for people and lose interest real fast with posts that talk about them. I skip over all of those kinds of things.

Every thing works? I thought that you were against the 357 and the small calibers. Have you change your mind?

NO, not in the least. You are still right, bigger will always be better. I hate anything smaller then the .44! I just feel we should stick to hunting here and leave out carry guns for people. That topic can get heated and detract from our purpose.
What I said was that people shooting does not interest me in the least, I will pass over anything posted with little interest even though I have stuck up for your position on occasion. If I had to carry, I sure don't want a pipsqueek gun. On other sites I just gave up with those that want a tiny caliber when their life is in danger.
All that I meant was to keep this as a hunting site only. Deer to elephant, keep people shooting out!
When I said everything we hunt with works, I mean large hunting calibers, not people stuff. No way shape or form will you ever see me with a .357! OOPS, maybe rabbit hunting!

.357 makes for a minimal rabbit caliber.

Just kidding. Lighten up.

Marko understands and knows me. I don't even own a toy gun except the .22's for squirrels.
My feeling is that there is not a gun worth the powder between the .22 and .44.

AMEN Whitworth. Delaware has just begun handgun hunting seasons and they included the .357 as minimum. I've tried since it hit the books to take it off. I've explained to them that the .357 does NOT have the pop required to HUMANELY take deer sized animals. It's been like stacking Jello getting these dumbass politicians to understand what that there's little damned difference is between a.357 and a .38+P load. Still working it.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
.357 makes for a minimal rabbit caliber.

Just kidding. Lighten up.

Thats funny. I diliver a load of fire wood once to one of the guys that helped develope the Freedom arms pistol when the 454 Casulle (SP) came out. I believe his name was Gary. I'm a lover of 41Mags, and being so I asked him. What do you think of the 41mag? His reply was " hey they make a great purse gun" Laughed my butt off! Still love my 41's!!!
MM

Well, I've had to hunt two-legged animals with a handgun as well as the four-legged kind; so the threads on performance are fine by me. Kinda like animal medicine, same as the "people" kind and works the same. I do not live in a perfect world and you can be rest assured I carry a defense handgun.

bfrshooter, sorry to hear you feel the need to limit yourself. There's a lot of good shooting between .22 and .44. And please don't tell the half a dozen or so deer, cows and other large animals I've killed with a .357 that they died from too small a caliber. Just wouldn't seem right to spoil it for them at this point.

Since my favorite carry gun is a .44, I guess I'm covered both ways! Discussions of terminal performance interest me whether we are talking about man or beast. They are both applicable if you ask me.

That's right Whitworth, it's all good to discuss.

This is a holster I just made for my 696 and 624 carry guns

Dang Hitman!! That's some fine leather work! I mainly use a sexy and stylish Uncle Mike's nylon shoulder holster for this:

Thank you. I always wanted a nice holster to go with those revolvers so I just made one.

Hitman, we both know probably as many deer get shot every year with a .22 as a .300 Win Mag, but the .357 is still a minimal firearm for the AVEAGE guy who just picks up the gun a few days before the season, shoots at the barn door, and figures he's good to go. I know the 1000 pound minimum for humane kills is going to fire some of you guys up, but after about 20 yards, you're down to less than 800 pounds in most factory loads. In some states, the requirement is foot pounds of energy. In our state, they got completely stupid and starting NAMING calibers so that they had to put an exception into the manual with the 460XTR by explaining that it shot a .45 bullet. If they'd simply stated "any firearm firing straightwall pistol rounds in calibers from .40 to .50" they wouldn't have found it necessary to say:".357, .41 caliber, .41 magnum, .44 caliber, .44 magnum, .45 caliber,.454 caliber,.480 caliber,.50 caliber". Later they talk about the ".460 casull". Really smart people writing our game laws.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Since my favorite carry gun is a .44, I guess I'm covered both ways! Discussions of terminal performance interest me whether we are talking about man or beast. They are both applicable if you ask me.

Sorry to disagree. But bullets used agents man, are not the same choice used in hunting.
It is to bad you cannot distinguish the difference,
How many times have I seen people try to use a bullet designed for use on humans, in the field (hunting), and have the bullet fail to do the job.

Showing pictures of blown up animals, with poorly chosen bullets are not my idea of taking game.
These pictures are what draws PETA members. In my opinion, they are in poor taste and should not be shown. There is a lot better pictures we can display of game without having to show how big of a hole we made in it.

Someone please explain to me, how showing the performance of 9 mm, 40 S&W 45 ACP relates to hunting?
How these guns, and rounds relate to hunting what so ever. What performance can you take from them and use it in what we call hunting handguns.

Personal protection handgun are made for just that, personal protection. Hunting handgun are made for hunting. Ballistic performance of 9 mm, 40 S&W 45 ACP or any other cartridge designed for self defense are a poor example of what should be used for handgun hunting.

george,

We are in agreement on our assessment of politicians. they, like diapers, should be changed often, and for the same reasons. Too many write laws concerning topics on which they know nothing. However, some blanket statements such as you are making and relying on foot pounds of energy are things I will have to disagree with you.

redhawk1,

I've seen "hunting" bullets that were fine for one type of game, be a poor choice for another. I've seen "personal protection bullets" do a good job on thin-skinned game. I've shot deer with a .45ACP as well as other calibers the "experts" claim to be unsuitable for deer; the deer would disagree, if they were still around. I've shot deer with what you apparently consider personal protection handguns, I've yet to see the label printed on the side of the barrel denoting the intended use of the firearm.

Trying to cast your limitations upon the remainder of the world will continue to be a frustrating venture both for you and those around you. Just because you are unable or unwilling to do something, doesn't mean others are unable or unwilling.

MS Hitman, I hear that all the time. I know a .22 LR can kill a 1000 pound cow. But that does not make a .22 LR a hunting round for big game. The object is to kill the animal the fasted we can, and the most humane way we can.

In my opinion, handgun used for hunting should start at 41 Mag and up.
And no a firearm does not need a stamp on it to designate it as a hunting handgun, but a true hunter should know what a true handgun hunting round and gun should be.

I am sure we could go back and forth on this issue all day, but as long as we as hunter condone peoples poor choices of what is use for hunting, we will always disagree. Just because someone killed a deer with a 9 mm, does not make the 9 mm the next deer cartridge for handgun hunting.

Let's just be real here for once.

I'm all for being real here. Stating your opinions as only opinions is a good way to start.

That's the secret, respect each others opinions. Everyone likes different guns but I am only a hunter so I don't have smaller guns.
I like all guns and enjoy working with and shooting everything. I have owned all kinds of calibers but had to sell them to buy better guns for hunting. Guys bring all kinds of stuff here to shoot and for me to work on. I like them all. I don't care if it has a 2" barrel or a 10" one. A .32, .38, .357, .41 or whatever. They are all fun. It is just that I have had to narrow things down from lack of funds to keep every gun I ever had.
If you like the .357 or the .41 I will not get hostile about it but to discuss each ones performance on game is in the realm of this forum.
The same as all of you like different makes of guns and to discuss problems and shortcomings should also be done without anger.
Anger has been the norm here though.
Same with bullet/boolit choices or what powder you like.
We are all different and drive different cars!