I thought I might have had a chance at a 475L Ruger SRH but, that deal apparently fell through so .... clean slate and time for a fresh rethink.

Feral hogs are a real problem but, they are easy to dispatch with many mainstream firearms. Last time my friend went to Alaska on short notice, he took my Ruger SRH in 44 magnum. Since rifles were out, that was the best I/we could muster.

Now, I'm wondering about the 460S&W so I could use 45 colt and 454 Casull loads vs. the 480 Ruger (or 475 Linebaugh). For rural Texas I would load relatively sedate loads for feral hogs or 2 legged vermin however, which is the better choice for controllability and effectiveness against a large angry Alaskan bear?

I would skip the 460 and for bears id get the 454 in the super redhawk toklat version in 454. 480 is good too. 454 has much better bullet selection. That gun is perfect imho

I have read that in order for the 460 to be anything more than the 454 it needs a longer barrel. I don't classify an 8"+ handgun in the protection category. To me that is a hunting class handgun.

I have shot the 454 in a Ruger super redhawk and found the report to be very sharp even with hearing protection. That doesn't mean I don't think it is a great cartridge but it just isn't for me. I went with the 480 Ruger and haven't been disappointed. With a 400gr cast bullet it really works.

My buddy that was a fishing guide up in Alaska for a few years carried the S&W scandium framed 44 Mag to defend against bear. He started out with a Ruger Redhawk but grew tired of it's weight day in and day out. He, along with many others bought and carried the Smith. The downside to it was the recoil from full house loads was bad enough you didn't want to shoot more than a cylinder's worth.

IMO the perfect revolver to carry in big bear country is the S&W 500 with 4 inch barrel. You can find one on the used market for about $900.
I bought one when they first hit the market and carried it in Alaska for many years.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
IMO the perfect revolver to carry in big bear country is the S&W 500 with 4 inch barrel. You can find one on the used market for about $900.
I bought one when they first hit the market and carried it in Alaska for many years.

I think you can get similar ballistics without the bulk, blast, and noise of the .500 Smith. You're not going to get top velocities with the 4-inch barrel. There are more svelte packages that IMO are way more attractive an alternative. Again, JMHO.

I've never owned a .460 S&W, but have used both the .454 and .475 Linebaugh a great deal. The .460, with its application as a relatively high velocity revolver round seems out of place to me for bear medicine. I much prefer the .475 Linebaugh, and frankly the .480 Ruger is about 99.5 % as good for that purpose, IMO. With 400 gr. bullets, the .480 / .475 is perfect for bears:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I think you can get similar ballistics without the bulk, blast, and noise of the .500 Smith. You're not going to get top velocities with the 4-inch barrel. There are more svelte packages that IMO are way more attractive an alternative. Again, JMHO.

What would you suggest as a svelte alternative?

You could try a BFR in 500 JRH if you want a revolver smaller and lighter than the S&W 500 4 inch. Great revolver for the price and I own one as well. I just preferred a double action when the revolver was only carried for big bear protection.

For single action wheelguns, I'd most likely go with a Freedom Arms 475 Linebaugh. However, I think I would be best served with a double action revolver in bear country.

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I think you can get similar ballistics without the bulk, blast, and noise of the .500 Smith. You're not going to get top velocities with the 4-inch barrel. There are more svelte packages that IMO are way more attractive an alternative. Again, JMHO.

What would you suggest as a svelte alternative?

Pretty much anything but an X-frame. FA 83 is one (the .500 WE will give you a .50 cal in a more manageable package), BFR in .500 JRH is another. If someone wants a snubbie in a big caliber, the Ruger Alaskan is an option. I personally would go the custom route in single or double action. You can squeeze a .500 Linebaugh or JRH into a Redhawk or Super Redhawk (and cut the barrel down) and it will make for a great back-up piece. I prefer single actions. This Blackhawk (which I no longer have) had a 4 1/4-inch barrel and was chambered in .500 JRH. It was light, accurate, and pointed intuitively.

I would suggest that how good you can shoot under stress is a helluva lot more important than the cartridge, within reason. A solid hit with a .44 Special would be a much better than a miss with a .500.

I own (or have owned) everything mentioned in this string of posts. The 4" 500 is long gone, way to heavy for daily carry and the blast was simply unbearable. Still have a 3", no muzz. brake, .460 that is also to heavy for quick deployment, let alone daily carry. I kept it only because the option of firing 454/45C is still appealing to me. The 6" 629 spends its days on a shelf in the safe as its a little bit to long for continuous carry as well.

The single actions in any caliber are out as purely self defense guns.

The only autos that could be had in a "magnum" caliber are the desert eagles and they are totally unsuited to belt carry. One auto that is on my frequent woods carry list is the glock m-20 in 10mm stoked with some fast stepping 200gr hard cast wfn's. This setup is gaining a large following up in this country for its capacity, reliability, light weight, ease of carry and excellent penetration with only moderate recoil. Those features all add up to a nice trail gun.

The other daily carry gun is my 4" scandium frame S&W 329 in .44mag with 300gr hard casts. It is great for daily carry but will wear you out in short order during a practice session. Recoil is pretty stiff but it was obviously designed for full time carry and not recreational shooting with full house loads.

I suppose if I were fishing the shore of a known brown bear river I might consider the 460 but for day in day out carry I prefer the G20 or the 329 Smith. Both have adequate penetration with recoil that can be fairly well managed by most shooters. Good shot placement trumps lots of blast and recoil every time!

These guns are comfortable enough to carry that you will probably have it with you if you end up being the one in a million person faced with a real bear attack. Good luck with whatever you get, and sleep well knowing the odds of ever having to use it against a bear are about ZERO!

P.S. If I knew I would be facing "a large angry Alaskan bear", My first choice would be my .450 Nitro double rifle.

Why are single actions out for self defense? Because you have to cock them before firing? How many folks with big double action revolvers that you know actually fire them in DA? Personally, I thing single actions point a lot more intuitively than their DA brethren which is particularly critical if you are forced to point-shoot. JMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I would suggest that how good you can shoot under stress is a helluva lot more important than the cartridge, within reason. A solid hit with a .44 Special would be a much better than a miss with a .500.

Carrying a pistol or rifle you can't shoot only slows you down as you run.

FWIW, I don't have an issue with 44 mags which is why up gunning seems appropriate.

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
The only autos that could be had in a "magnum" caliber are the desert eagles and they are totally unsuited to belt carry. One auto that is on my frequent woods carry list is the glock m-20 in 10mm stoked with some fast stepping 200gr hard cast wfn's. This setup is gaining a large following up in this country for its capacity, reliability, light weight, ease of carry and excellent penetration with only moderate recoil. Those features all add up to a nice trail gun.

The other daily carry gun is my 4" scandium frame S&W 329 in .44mag with 300gr hard casts. It is great for daily carry but will wear you out in short order during a practice session. Recoil is pretty stiff but it was obviously designed for full time carry and not recreational shooting with full house loads.

I suppose if I were fishing the shore of a known brown bear river I might consider the 460 but for day in day out carry I prefer the G20 or the 329 Smith. Both have adequate penetration with recoil that can be fairly well managed by most shooters. Good shot placement trumps lots of blast and recoil every time!

These guns are comfortable enough to carry that you will probably have it with you if you end up being the one in a million person faced with a real bear attack. Good luck with whatever you get, and sleep well knowing the odds of ever having to use it against a bear are about ZERO!

P.S. If I knew I would be facing "a large angry Alaskan bear", My first choice would be my .450 Nitro double rifle.

I have Desert Eagles which are fun for range days and are super accurate but way too heavy for daily carry. I CCW'ed a G-20 and know it well. For CONUS use, a hard hitting 10mm is a viable option especially when I have a bunch of them to back up the first one. Shot placement is key as a clump of dirt or hole in a tree won't turn or intimidate a brownie on the charge. Muzzle blast and recoil are a consideration as well which leads me away from the 454 Casull and 500 S&W.

If I knew I had a high likelihood of having a bad bear encounter, why would I go there in the first place? Secondly, I'd have one of my double rifles with me if I REALLY HAD TO BE THERE. And, as you pointed out it does me no good to have the perfect bear medicine locked up in a gun safe at home ... what I have with me when the @$@#$ hits the fan is the only thing that counts.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Why are single actions out for self defense? Because you have to cock them before firing? How many folks with big double action revolvers that you know actually fire them in DA? Personally, I thing single actions point a lot more intuitively than their DA brethren which is particularly critical if you are forced to point-shoot. JMHO.

I for one use double action wheelguns in double action mode unless I'm on a target range trying to wring out the last bit of accuracy or I'm doing initial load development.

My two cents worth.

I lived in Alaska for well over 30 years and read every story concerning bear attacks I could find as well as talking at length with people who were attacked. My conclusions are if you are attacked it will be fast and furious with only time for one aimed shot. After that the bear is either stopped, has turned and run the other way, or you are on the ground with the bear hovering. If you are on the ground you want to be able to pick up your revolver and fire it with either hand as quick as possible and that is why I like a double action for bear protection.
Every other hunting revolver I own is a single so you will notice I respect the single action and use them while hunting, prefer them to be honest. Further more, any revolver is not the best choice. The revolver is a compromise between carrying ability and power. Any time we were walking back to a moose or caribou kill we would carry rifles and they would be in our hands ready to go. In these situations I would be out front with one of my doubles loaded and ready to go.

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Why are single actions out for self defense? Because you have to cock them before firing? How many folks with big double action revolvers that you know actually fire them in DA? Personally, I thing single actions point a lot more intuitively than their DA brethren which is particularly critical if you are forced to point-shoot. JMHO.

I for one use double action wheelguns in double action mode unless I'm on a target range trying to wring out the last bit of accuracy or I'm doing initial load development.

What calibers are we talking about here? My .44 Mags aren't difficult to shoot DA. I shoot some of my DA revolvers DA, but the bigger calibers are a different story. I have had some fairly raucous DAs to include .475 and .500 Linebaughs and shooting them DA is good in theory. I don't think that when push comes to shove you will get more than one shot off. I concede that if you find yourself underneath an animal hellbent on ending your life, the DA is definitely the way to go.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Why are single actions out for self defense? Because you have to cock them before firing? How many folks with big double action revolvers that you know actually fire them in DA? Personally, I thing single actions point a lot more intuitively than their DA brethren which is particularly critical if you are forced to point-shoot. JMHO.

Sorry, I did not reply for a while. Anyway, Snowwolfe pretty much nailed. I am pretty handy with SA's and have shot cowboy action for many years, but, If we are talking about PURELY SELF DEFENSE guns then there are several reasons for Da over sa. The primary being simpler one handed operation in the middle of an out of control situation. Grab the grip and pull the trigger! Same reason that cops went to DA as soon as it was a viable option. Once again this is mostly a cerebral exercise because a handgun is never a proper first choice if walking into a fight, but packing one is certainly better than throwing rocks and screaming like a little girl. The odds are very remote of an actual attack but it is always better to be prepared than not.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I think you can get similar ballistics without the bulk, blast, and noise of the .500 Smith. You're not going to get top velocities with the 4-inch barrel. There are more svelte packages that IMO are way more attractive an alternative. Again, JMHO.

What would you suggest as a svelte alternative?

Pretty much anything but an X-frame. FA 83 is one (the .500 WE will give you a .50 cal in a more manageable package), BFR in .500 JRH is another. If someone wants a snubbie in a big caliber, the Ruger Alaskan is an option. I personally would go the custom route in single or double action. You can squeeze a .500 Linebaugh or JRH into a Redhawk or Super Redhawk (and cut the barrel down) and it will make for a great back-up piece. I prefer single actions. This Blackhawk (which I no longer have) had a 4 1/4-inch barrel and was chambered in .500 JRH. It was light, accurate, and pointed intuitively.

Damn Whitworth thats one sweet Revolver.Who made it????

I don't find the smaller barreled xframe to unwieldy. I also don't find muzzle blast on loads that ya'd consider a bear stopper to be an issue in that type of scenario. that said, If ya want portability the 480 or 454 ruger Alaskan is the way to go. the toklat is a good in betweener. the 500 jrh we have would be utterly pointless in a short barrel with anything resembling top end loads.

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
Once again this is mostly a cerebral exercise because a handgun is never a proper first choice if walking into a fight, but packing one is certainly better than throwing rocks and screaming like a little girl. The odds are very remote of an actual attack but it is always better to be prepared than not.

I disagree. I am quite comfortable and confident in the capabilities of my various revolvers and loads. I don't think I am giving much up from a terminal standpoint and frankly you can press a handgun into action faster than a rifle IMO. Then again, I hunt almost exclusively with handguns and am quite happy with their capabilities even on large game. I concede a DA is better when you find yourself underneath an animal and have to utilize your weapon one handed.

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:

Damn Whitworth thats one sweet Revolver.Who made it????

Jack Huntington built that one. It was a great revolver!

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

What calibers are we talking about here? My .44 Mags aren't difficult to shoot DA. I shoot some of my DA revolvers DA, but the bigger calibers are a different story. I have had some fairly raucous DAs to include .475 and .500 Linebaughs and shooting them DA is good in theory. I don't think that when push comes to shove you will get more than one shot off. I concede that if you find yourself underneath an animal hellbent on ending your life, the DA is definitely the way to go.

My largest DA pistol is a 44 Magnum. If I had time and both hands available a Single Action shot is an easy choice. If I'm on the ground or injured, I want a double action. Sure, a 475/480/500 handgun Double Action single handed is going to be hazardous to me and probably painful but, is still beats the alternative of being mauled and killed by a bear. If I live through the traumatic event, I'll worry about hearing loss, a broken hand, etc. thankful I'm still alive to seek out needed medical care.

Like SnowWolfe, my 470NE or 450/400 Double Rifle would be a better option but you use what you have right then and there when the "@#$@# hits the fan"!

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Pretty much anything but an X-frame. FA 83 is one (the .500 WE will give you a .50 cal in a more manageable package), BFR in .500 JRH is another. If someone wants a snubbie in a big caliber, the Ruger Alaskan is an option. I personally would go the custom route in single or double action. You can squeeze a .500 Linebaugh or JRH into a Redhawk or Super Redhawk (and cut the barrel down) and it will make for a great back-up piece. I prefer single actions. This Blackhawk (which I no longer have) had a 4 1/4-inch barrel and was chambered in .500 JRH. It was light, accurate, and pointed intuitively.

What sort of money range are we looking at in something like the Blackhawk you used to own? Who are the better 'smiths to do this type of work?

Same for a reworked Ruger Super Redhawk. If I started with a donor 44 Magnum version, what sort of budget am I looking at to have one built? Who are the better 'smiths to do this type of work?

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
My two cents worth.

I lived in Alaska for well over 30 years and read every story concerning bear attacks I could find as well as talking at length with people who were attacked. My conclusions are if you are attacked it will be fast and furious with only time for one aimed shot. After that the bear is either stopped, has turned and run the other way, or you are on the ground with the bear hovering. If you are on the ground you want to be able to pick up your revolver and fire it with either hand as quick as possible and that is why I like a double action for bear protection.
Every other hunting revolver I own is a single so you will notice I respect the single action and use them while hunting, prefer them to be honest. Further more, any revolver is not the best choice. The revolver is a compromise between carrying ability and power. Any time we were walking back to a moose or caribou kill we would carry rifles and they would be in our hands ready to go. In these situations I would be out front with one of my doubles loaded and ready to go.

Yep, I fully agree. I figured why carry a 8-10 inch 500 S&W when I could carry my .375 H&H that weighed a few pounds more.

Seems like a person by person thing. The answer depends on what you can shoot and handle, does it not.

With some the ultra heavies risk one and done. And that's NOT good. Afterall, as fast as a big bear is (35 mph?) there's still that theoretical chance at a second shot, so you want to take advantage of it if it goes that way.

So how about for the average person a .44 Magnum or stiffly loaded .45?

A .44 Magnum with standard factory loads in a 240 grainer is NOT a hard kicker (and they routinely absolutely smash smaller than grizz stuff for all of us every season).

Now, you can kick that up a notch with using something like Hornady's 240 @ 1350, which is above the standard magnum 1180 fps without giving up any real comfort in shooting it. And you can up it more to Speer's 1400 load or do it "all the way" to C-B's 1475 or Rem's old original '70s near 1500 without doing yourself any serious harm at all.

Or just go to a heavier bullet in that .44 or .45.

So why not? That is, for the average person/hunter?

Assuming of course no rifle is handy, that seems to me a plan...

Shack I think you are basically correct on all of your points. I would add that I think that revolver NEEDS to be a double action capable of being fired one handed if necessary.

It’s too bad I don’t get to hunt in bear country. I have the perfect combo for easy carry and ample power in my 44 mag S&W Mountain Gun. It weighs 39 ounces empty. Load it up with six 310 gr hard cast made by Garrett that move at 1320 FPS and you have a lot of power in an easy to carry revolver.
If those are not enough, I also have some 320 gr hard cast loaded by Wolf to about the same speed. You need to really hold on when firing either of these loads. I don’t shoot them a lot for they are not good for me or the Mountain Gun. They are only in the gun when I am hog hunting.

One critical component here is barrel length. I'm thinking that would depend on the likely distance to the bear, which in a self defense mode will be constantly and rapidly decreasing to zero.

6", 6 1/2" and 8 3/8" are what I use in hunting handguns. The longer barrel is better as a sighting plane for longer shots. But at what distance are you going to be firing a handgun at a bear?

I think you'd need plan on no distance at all for this. Either he's on top of you or you wait til he's so close you can't miss. You can't have a miss here. If I'm right about that, then 4" at the max and shorter would be the thing.

Anyway, this is something few of us will ever find out the hard way. In forty years I've only been charged once, and that was by a fat whitetail buck. What I found out there was, I had time to get off only three D/A .44 handgun shots and only one of those was well aimed. It didn't come in a straight line but kind of zig zagged with head/antlers down and aiming at all was next to impossible. What a bear would do though, someone else will have to say.

Even if you see it before it sees you may not be enough. It's over in about 2 seconds, 3 at most.

If it sees you first, I think you really need the gun already out and in your hands.

Shack nailed it, you must have fast access to whatever gun you're packing. If its a rifle slung over your shoulder you most likely are in big trouble. The mistake most people make is when they first spot a bear they just stand & watch it, the smart ones get the safety off the rifle or the handgun in both hands NOW! A bear is a predator, they stalk from close range, they don't make 200 yd charges, when it happens it happens..... so get ready. If things do get bad you have 2-3 seconds to get yourself into the fight or get mauled if the charge is real. The speed of a bear is incredible & can be very intimidating the first time you see it happen. We have taken many black bears & I've had one grizzly very close, its quite an experience. One last thing, if a Quarter horse & a Grizzly were in a race for 50 yds the smart money would be on the bear, true story!

Dick

I agree fully that preparedness is a majority of the game here. I hunt black bear with dogs every year, and they are highly agitated, nervous, and prepared for a fight. It's disconcerting when during the commotion, the bear makes eye contact with you. When near and closing in, you must absolutely be at the ready irrespective of the type of firearm you are shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I agree fully that preparedness is a majority of the game here. I hunt black bear with dogs every year, and they are highly agitated, nervous, and prepared for a fight. It's disconcerting when during the commotion, the bear makes eye contact with you. When near and closing in, you must absolutely be at the ready irrespective of the type of firearm you are shooting.

Recognizing the danger in any self defense situation is a huge thing.

No matter the attacker two or 4 legged I heard many times I couldn't believe it was happening to me. That type of thinking really slows the thought process and reaction to the situation way down.

I too hunt bears with hounds and have finished several off at muzzle toughing distance.

Closing in on a big bear fighting with the hounds in brush so thick that one can see more then feet get the heart pumping for sure.

Several years ago my daughter shot one that field dress 435 lbs. At around 20 feet ( story was posted Here)

Had to crawl on hands and knees to make the shot.

Just my 2 cents. I do not hunt bears but live with Mr Griz every time I go out in the back country. The problem with most hand cannons is that they are heavy. I own a custom shop 460 and it weighs as much as a light carbine. My own "carry gun" is an S&W 329 stoked with 310 gr big met plat hardcasts over a max load of H110. The naked gun is only 26 ounces and is no fun to shoot once you get beyond cowboy action level loads. The bear loads are also hard on the gun so I limit my shooting with them to a few cylinders per year. 100s of 200 gr cast bullets over 5 gr of trail boss go through it just to keep muscle memory intact. The other gun I would be tempted by if they ever brought out a long barreled version (like the new 45 ACP) would be the Glock in 10mm (not 40) as the 180 gr CORBON is an awesome round.

For this reason I am not a big fan of the X-frame. However, I have a number of revolvers ranging from .45 Colt up .500 Maximum that weigh right around 3-lbs. Nothing debilitating about carrying them.

I know what you mean about weight my main no motorized camping gun has been my Ti 41 mag.

I know from personal experience that a 210 hard cast out of it well drive clean through a good size bears skull.

I think the title of the tread is a little off.

I personally try to deter the bear before I have to shoot.

If it comes down to shooting I am trying to kill the SOB as fast and quickly as possible

quote:

I know from personal experience that a 210 hard cast out of it well drive clean through a good size bears skull.

210 is the classic .41 Magnum load and a real killer. C-B also has a factory 250 hard cast for it that's easily shootable for any of us. I've used it on deer - but for those I prefer a JHP.

And speaking of .41, I remember a story here about a guy taking a grizz with it that attacked him. That was a yr or two ago.

Anyway, I think it's tempting in this time of the super heavy calibers to forget the actually awesome power of a .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum and a .45 LC that's hotter than cowboy ballistics.

I remember when I was messing around in the woods and decided to shoot some 2 to 3" oak sapling with my M29. One 240 JHP off-the-shelf factory round flat chopped that little tree in half. And I remember when I hit a buck with it farther aft than I wanted, in the liver instead of heart/lungs. It dropped to the shot. When I opened it up, the liver and whole surrounding area were turned into your basic blood soup.

What I'm saying is, "even" in standard factory fps and bullet weight loadings, these things are magnificent killers.

Personally I think just one .44 JHP (without even a tougher bullet) at the standard 1180 fps (without even getting into Hornady, Speer or Cor-Bon or handloads) up close right between the eyes of a large angry Alaskan bear (or in its ear or eye or open mouth or up its nose at close range) is worth FAR more than both barrels of a .700 Nitro Express in the gut.

But, then we're back full circle to, what if it's still in the holster when he charges.

If you're in thick stuff or he sees you first, it's looking like a rifle already in the hand is the only way. Unless someone has a better idea.

I spent the last 20 + odd years in Alaska as a full time wild life photographer and had the unique pleasure of visiting McNeil River bear sanctuary 4 different times. I have watched big bears, and I mean big, up close and personal for days on end. You really can't believe how fast they can react or how fast they can move when they put their mind to it.

The only way a person would have a chance against a full blown serious charge is to have a rifle or shotgun in their hands with a round in the chamber and the safety off.

Any handgun is just a compromise between size and weight. Yes they can be better than nothing but they are still a second choice.

Even at McNeil where the country is pretty open both the guide leading the people to the viewing stand as well as the guide following up the rear carry a 12 gauge pump. One time I watched two huge boars go at it toe to toe standing up less than 10 feet from the viewing platform. I never seen such an incredible display of raw power in my life.

quote:

The only way a person would have a chance against a full blown serious charge is to have a rifle or shotgun in their hands with a round in the chamber and the safety off.

Any handgun is just a compromise between size and weight. Yes they can be better than nothing but they are still a second choice.

A .45, .475, .500L or JRH is more than adequate for bear protection provided the one using the handgun puts the bullets where they go, but the same goes for a rifle.

I lived in Alaska for 7 years and used a .475L successfully, on an Arctic grizzly that squared 7 feet, that came in on a moose kill we were working on. He was shot in defense and the .475 proved more than adequate.



A properly loaded big bore revolver has more than enough power and penetration for big bear protection. Moose are larger and difficult to penetrate yet a properly loaded big bore revolver penetrates amazingly deep.

No one has tried the S&W 69? When I read about this one I thought it'd be just about perfect in .41