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| one of us |
Best place to shoot with a hand gun is just below chin.I recently watched a video of a Montans Fish and Game officer who was releasing a Grizzly he had trapped and relocated.The officer was on top of the cage in the back of a pick-up truck, as the grizzly exited the cage he grabbed it and pulled it and the officer out of the truck bed.The bear then attacked,as he did the officer began fireing at the area below the chin and killed him on his 6th shot. | |||
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| <pshooter> |
Jeremy, Your theory has merit, but I would only load with hard cast bullets, as protection rounds will not penetrate enough. mvm | ||
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| one of us |
Well any fire arm beats a sharp stick. I like a bit more vel then the 45 gives. But I take one over a knife any day. I sure it would work just fine on smaller bears in the 300 and below class not all bears that try and eat you are monsters. | |||
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| one of us |
Yes, it is a ludicrous idea! Like the old saying "don't take a knife to a gun fight!" Autos are more likely to jam/misfire than a double action revolver, AND the .45 ACP was never designed to be a bear protection cartridge. A smart man would choose a double action revolver in the .44 Magnum energy range. CDW | |||
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| <stans> |
A 45ACP is better than throwing rocks, but big Magnum is the way to go. If all you happen to have is a 45ACP, I would think 230 grain FMJ ammo would be the best. Most reliable for functioning and the most penetration. I like the 45 for a lot of reasons, but if I knew there was the slightest chance of running into a bear, I would pack a 44 Magnum. | ||
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| <FarRight> |
As a voluntary choice over a larger magnum, yes the .45 ACP for bear protection boarders on insanity. I am assuming you are talking about grizzlies, and also that you have never seen one up close in the wild. I have. Last summer working for the Forest Service on Trail Crew up in "The Yaak" in NW Montana, we stumbled across a grizzly up hill from us about 40 or 50 yards...a very touchy situation to be in. Government policy forbidded us to carry firearms on the job so there was nothing we could do but slouch behind the guy with the chainsaw. There is nothing quiet so humbling as a grizzly up close--it is immenently clear that you are on his turf and he is the top of the food chain. I hope never to be in that situation again, no matter how well I am armed. They are truely magnificent animals fully deserved of all the respect you can give them, and then some. Black bears can be dangerous too, esp if you get caught between a sow and cubs..another bad situation. We also have a growing problem with cougars (panthers, mountain lions, pumas, whatever you call em... still bad critter to be alone with). Given a choice I wouldn't be found with anything less than a hot loaded .44 Mag in bear country, or anywhere carnivores (or large omnivores) live. Better yet would be a nice lever gun in .45/70, or even a bolt in .338 Win minimum. That said, a .45 on the hip would be better than a .44 Mag left at home. | ||
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| <SlimL> |
I have to agree that any firearm is better than no firearm at all. I load my .44 with 310 gr Hard Cast SWC behind 22 gr. of 296. Yes it does kick my butt but it will go almost all the way to the north end of a southbound bear. Oh yes, never shoot a bear in the head especially from dead front. With the thickness of the skull and the slope of the head all you will do is piss him or her more likely off. Slim | ||
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one of us |
jeremy w, I'll be more confident behind my .454 casull or a .45 Colt than behind a .45 ACP. The .45 ACP is considered as stopping caliber for human but not for a bear. You need caliber with a 300 gr with a velocity over 1250 fps like .44 Mag, .454 Casull, .475 Linebaugh, .50 AE or .500 Linebaugh. All the rest is a joke!!! ------------------ | |||
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one of us |
If it's all you got it beats throwing rocks. ------------------ | |||
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| <cohoyo> |
My experience has been that you're going to get one shot at a charging bear, if you hit it with enough gun then you're going to get a second shot, if you don't then the bear eats you. i would carry a .45 acp if I had no other choice but it would be about my last choice. anything that goes bang is better than your finger nails but you're going to have serious penetration problems with the 45 acp. i'll stick with my .454 casull. | ||
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| <Paul Dustin> |
I would agree with Pumpkinheaver it is better then throwing rocks but not much | ||
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| One of Us |
Any pistol will work so long as it's made of chocolate...cause you are likely going to eat it. Or if you can't find a chocolate pistol, be sure to get one shaped like a suppository.  This thread is fun to argue about sitting safely around a bar with Buck and the boys, but it is really like discussing which color swimming trunks to wear if you are going to swim in shark infested waters. The SMART SWIMMER/HUNTER takes some REAL protection or he stays home.
I've never killed a bear but I have friends who have, one with a .270 and one with a .300 mag. Both were ONLY black bears and both took multiple shots. Neither was exceptionally big. However, I have spent a lifetime studying wildlife and bear attacks and such were high on my study list. The thing to remember about hunting dangerous game that fights back is your first job is to STOP the critter...you can kill it later. Lots of hunters have been mauled and even killed by fatally wounded animals...just the same as lots of cops are killed by fatally wounded crooks. IMHO anytime anyone drops a charging bear with a pistol, it is nothing but blind, staggering luck. A sobering question to ask yourself is how many seconds do you think a black or a grizzly would need to kill you? When viewed in this light, no pistol sounds very appealing...nor should they. Fortunately, from all my reading, bears rarely attack with the idea of killing or eating. Most people get ripped up and left...if they don't fight back. But I think the odds of a really serious bear attack would go up dramatically IF you pumped a couple of bullets into him before he got to you. The bear might take your bullets personally and decide to really do some creative work when he catches up with you. (If you know what I mean.) I had the occasion to visit a zoo last summer and I stood almost within hand shaking distance of a 500 lb black bear. Being a hunter, I naturally thought about what I would need to bag such a creature. As I say, this is a great topic of discussion so long as all of us are sitting at home in our pajamas waiting on breakfast. But in the real world, anyone who goes wandering into serious bear country and doesn't carry a RIFLE is simply courting disaster. Yep, I know many people do it every year in some of our national parks but each year a few of them are carried out in pieces or as scat samples. It happens so often, it's not really even newsworthy. Your chances of stopping a real bear charge with a pistol would be about the same as whipping out a Bible and converting him to Christianity. Two things to remember about killing bears with pistols Most of the brave pistol hunters who kill a bear have two things going for them. 1. They have someone behind them with a good rifle. 2. They shot a rather UNsuspecting bear minding his own business and NOT a crazy mad animal, juiced up full of adrenaline. I've NEVER read an account of a pistol hunter (regardless of caliber) stopping a grizzly charge. If someone can point me to such a true encounter, I'd be interested to read it. Your life. Your decision. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Pecos45 (edited 05-05-2002).] | |||
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| <FarRight> |
Opinion taken and seconded Pecos...right on. | ||
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| one of us |
Pacos 45 I belive it was in Bow hunting mag. That a bow hunter shot a sow gizz with one shot from his 44 at about 10 feet full charge. Another on from MT. a hiker was chased up a tree by a sow grizz when the bear started up the tree after him one shot between her eyes stopped her cold. Unlike you I have shot several bears all of them have taken only one shot. A pistol might not be the first choice put it is lot better then nothing. Remember not all bears that try and eat you are big a lot of bears in the 300 lbs and under are involved in attacks. As you said Your chances of stopping a bear in a charge is depending a lot of your skill the size of bear the pistol. What type of warning a lot of bear attacks the people knew there was a bear and would have had time to get ready makes a big diff. If your given a few seconds to draw and get set. We had a bear mauling two years ago at a boy scout camp they had to beat a 200 lb bear off with sticks and rocks. A good 357 or 44 ect would of ended the attack much sooner. There was also a attack my a 175lb bear a belive in NM that the consulor killed tha bear with a .38 spl. As would of a rifle or properly loaded shot gun. Don't discount a pistol as a means of selfdefense. They have worked in the real world and will work. As with any thing they don't work all the time nor do rifles. | |||
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| One of Us |
PDS - Your point is well taken and certainly there are exceptions to every rule and there can be many extinuating circumstances for each and every bear attack. And I guess if I had to go into bear country carrying a .22 or nothing, I'd pick the .22 just for moral support. My real concern here is for the "mindset" that packing a pistol, even a big pistol, may give to anyone in serious bear country. I have, and I know you have as well, witnessed wild animals do incredable things even after suffering horrendous wounds. Once they get the supercharger running on pure adrenaline it can be a whole new ball game, as you know. I'm just saying let's err on the side of caution about this pistol/bear thing. Packing a pistol into any wild country is probably a good idea. But do so knowing your limitations. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
There were a couple of norwegians who set out to cross the north pole on cross-country skis. they documented the trip as best they could. They came across a pretty good size polar bear and shot it with a 44mag, 4" barrel. I'm not sure from memory but I think they dropped it with one, and finished it with a second. From the pics, it looked like it was at least 400 lbs. Hard to judge. Of course, they caught it by surprise, not in a charge. | |||
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Moderator |
The minimum I'd consider in a 45 caliber pistol for bear protection is 300 gr @ 1200 fps, and you aren't going to get that from a 45 acp. The key is to have enough gun for one shot to work, and not rely on a magazene full of marginal to innefective rounds. It's the same reason I consider the 12 ga to be a poor choice. Pack enough gun to do the job, and be proficient in its use. Barring that, go unarmed and be sensible in bear country. Much better to be unarmed and cautious, then armed and careless. | |||
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one of us |
Pecos45 - Within the past week, I read of a lady surveyor, engineer, or something, that stopped a grizzly charge in Alaska with one shot from a 44 Mag. A magazine full of 230 FMJ's out of a 45 ACP is certainly better than nothing, I'd say. R-WEST ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
I have an Alaskan fishing trip planned in a pretty remote area. I am definitely going to be where bears are. My guide told me so. My plan is to carry my Marlin 1895 Guide Gun in .45-70 with at least 350gr.-400gr. handloaded cast bullets along with my Ruger .45 single action handloaded with 325 gr. cast bullets as backup. Even though I have gotten proficient at getting 5 shots from the .45-70 off accurately within 10 seconds, I am not sure I even feel comfortable with this setup. There is no way I would take this trip with just a .45ACP or for that matter my Ruger .45 single action. An angry bear is an awesome killing machine. I think it is very easy to sit around and talk about what we would do with a handgun, however, when faced with an angry bear charging at 30 miles an hour, most of us would just bend over and kiss our asses goodbye! | |||
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| One of Us |
quote: R-West: I don't discount your story, sir, at all...and other stories like it. A 44 and many lesser guns CAN stop a bear. But I wager for every story where someone stopped a charging animal such as a bear with a pistol, I can find you THREE stories where COMPETENT fellows with high powered rifles FAILED to stop the charge and got their asses mauled or worse. In fact, one of the first bear attack stories I ever read was a gruesome account of an Alaskan guide who was mauled by a grizzly. And he got off two good shots with a 30/06 and 205 gr bullets before the bear got to him! I'm afraid no one is going to convince me stopping a bear charge with a pistol is little more than a fluke of great luck and will never be the general rule. Perhaps the best thing to carry in bear country (if you can't pack a good rifle) would be a cyanide capsule. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Pecos45 (edited 05-08-2002).] | |||
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| one of us |
quote: How the hell are you going to get the bear to take a cyanide capsule? You'd be just as well off taking it yourself! | |||
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| one of us |
Pecos - Not trying to turn this into a shouting match. I didn't write the story, I just read it (June 2002 Handloader, Page 17, in Pearce's "Shoot from the Hip" column). My point is, a 44 Mag or 45 ACP, or anything you have with you is better than a 458 back in the truck, as I think jeremy's question pondered in the first place.
quote: Good one R-WEST [This message has been edited by R-WEST (edited 05-09-2002).] | |||
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| <jeremy w> |
The only time I rely on a handgun for primary bear protection is when hiking on long packing trips. My reasoning is this: The last two maulings in recent memory in WY involved rifles. One guy got mauled after shooting the griz with a .270. The other got mauled after shooting a 7mag. If this happened then it is unreasonable to think a .44 would have saved them. I have the idea of carrying a compact 1911. This way if I get mauled my story in a magazine can read: "I emptied my .270 winchester at the charging bear (or shot till it knocked it out of my hands) and then as the bear was chewing on my skull I pulled the .45 from holster and emptied it into its chest". I imagine climbing a tree would be a better idea than shooting anything short of an elephant gun. I hope I never have a bear chewing on my skull. | ||
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| new member |
Jeremy, The 45 ACP cartridge can be handloaded with heat treated cast bullets to about 1000 fps such that a round from your compact 45 would punch through the skull of a bear. This is how it can be done. You will need to load to a +P pressure level with 185 or 200-grain semi-wadcutter cast bullets. Loading to this pressure level will give you a velocity of about 1000 fps. Oregon Trail has 180 and 200 grain SWC bullets in 45 caliber (they even have a 155 grain SWC). These would be good candidate bullets because of their weight, SWC design, and they have a lube groove. However, they are not heat treated. Therefore, next heat treat these bullets. Heat treating hardens the lead and allows the bullets to perform as a solid with little expansion. The lube will be lost during heat treating so add it back to the groove before loading. Finally, check their performance for cycling and accuracy. While hunting I carry 357 Sig with 158 grain LBT heat-treated bullets. They cycle fine and accuracy is very good. If you need detailed help with the above procedure Pecos45 or others from the casting forum can help you | |||
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| one of us |
I live in a bear state; big bears. Better leave that 45 at home and get a 454 Casull or a 475 Linebaugh. In fact, I have a nice Freedom Arms I am selling cheap in the classifeds if you ever have thoughts of going in the bushes in bear country. | |||
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| <Sam> |
Just my 2 cents; I'd take the .44. I love my .45, but I'd think more of a either the .45 Super or .460 Rowland against a bear if I were limited to a 1911. As for Woodrow's semi-auto jam or misfire, I'd put the odds of a misfire about even. In my experience jams are from crap ammo or finiky match guns. | ||
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| <Sam> |
I meant to ask what barrel length on the DA, four or eight inch? Would the velocity trade off be worth ease of handling? | ||
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| One of Us |
A long time ago an old timer told me that if you're gonna be carrying a handgun for protection in bear country it's a good idea to file the front sight down smooth so when the bear shoves it up your ass it won't hurt so bad. I wouldn't even consider anything smaller than a 44Mag loaded hot and heavy. | |||
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| one of us |
Craigster you can shove it up yours if you want I prefer to shove it up the bears nose and pull the trigger. This foolishness of giving up when you are attacked is just that foolishness. I told had a old timer tell me no ever give up and don't ever give quarter. | |||
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one of us |
Has anybody heard of a man who got attacked by a female brown bear. He shot it 5 times with his Taurus Raging Bull in 454 casull while it was on top of him. It went off of him and died somewhere. Did he die too? | |||
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| one of us |
quote:Just chiming in to talk about something I know crap about, so watch me fall on my face (in style of course) ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} Right on!! If a bear was gonna kill me, I'll at least TRY to get even before I go. Give it hell! Nobody should just bend over and take it up the butt....figuratively speaking Isn't there a test done showing even a lowly .38 can penetrate a bear's skull. Of course I don't think the skull in the test was moving much.... Letting the bear get close before firing off a well aimed shot into it's brain seems the best bet to me, if one has only a handgun. You can only fire off 2 shots if you are lucky anyway might as well make it count... Of course I have no experience so take the above with a grain of salt... | |||
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| <Zeke> |
Unlike some folks on these pages, I do not have the luxury of having a rifle or pistol for every occasion. Here in Oregon the main threats to people in the woods are Black Bear and Cougar. As much as I like my .45ACP pistol, I prefer my M686 .357 Magnum for critter defense. Not because it is a revolver. There is more suitable ammo available for .357 Magnum. When I go into the woods I use the 180gr Nosler/Winchester Partition Loads or my own 180gr cast loads. Either load will penetrate far enough in to a bear to (hopefully) get into the vitals. If there is a lot of fresh bear sign around, I will carry a rifle. Better safe than dead. ZM | ||
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| <Ein guter Schu�> |
Howdy. Shouldn't the difference between Black and Brown bear weight heavily in this discussion? I have seen it brought up a few times, but not really fleshed out. I've never shot one of the Eastern Black Bears roming around here (hope I never have to, but I do see them at least once a year or more) but from all accounts, I'd think that the 357mag & 10mmauto class rounds, maybe including the 45Super & 460 Rowland if good penetrating bullets could be loaded, would be plenty for the small Black Bears, but that when we get into Brown Bear territory, a 44mag would be the bottom line minimum you'd want on your hip. | ||
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| <HHI 812> |
The Cool Guy-I spoke to a local a few years back, who was hunting moose with his FA 454 4 3/4", and walked in between a sow and her cubs. He survived, and he was able to get 3 shots off while the griz was mauling him. Bullet jumped on the 4th to tie up the cylinder, but lucky for him, she turned and walked away, and never found. He admitted the cylinder tie up was his fault in reloading. Where the bullet goes is the key, but also hard to use the sights when your getting mauled and chewed on, along with trying to aim at a bobbing, charging griz! Another local this past spring, also got off one "lucky" shot of his 300 Mag, that dropped the bear a few steps from him. Even with that cannon, if he had missed the vital spot he hit, would not have stopped the bear. Lots of luck helps! | ||
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| One of Us |
Who said anything about giving up? The point I'm trying to make is if that one decides to carry a firearm for protection in bear country it would be wise to carry something that will do the job efficiently. A semi auto 45ACP just doesn't cut it. How many times has the phrase "use enough gun "come up around here? All you big bad pistoleros out there ought to know that. | |||
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| one of us |
Dennis, didn't hear about the guy with the .454. You didn't mention the guy that killed the Kodiak brown with his knife a couple of years back. He kept his head (literally) by stabbing her in the jugular while she munched on him. I prefer a handgun to a rifle for bear protection. First, the odds of getting killed in your car getting to the woods is much greater than being mauled by a bear, if you keep a clean camp and don't invite them to attack. Second, if you pack a pistol it will always be one your hip, rather than leaning up against a tree (especially when fishing). And it the bear suprizes you and gets you down, a pistol is more handy in close quarters. Third, unless the bear is within about 20 feet (and maybe even then), it is probably a bluff charge. You are better to hold your fire with any gun, because to fail to knock him down at that distance with a rifle or handgun will tick him off. And fourth, I am a handgun hunter in part to avoid having to carry a rifle. Why would I want to carry one as backup. No, a .45LC revolver is not the perfect bear defense. But it is handy and is capable of killing a bear when he is on top of you trying to kill you. Just stick it in his mouth and pull the trigger. It is all a matter of what level of risk are you willing to accept to avoid having to carry a .700 Nitro Express double rifle in your hands every time you step out into the woods. Because anything less is not going to knock down a bear every time. As for the .45 ACP, if that is all you have take it. If you looking at buying a bear defense weapon get something that will pack a bigger wallop. And it you are going to man a remote fish weir on Kodiak Island or the Alaska Penninsula, buy a .458 Lott rifle or the like, and carry it in addition to a handgun on your hip. | |||
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one of us |
I took my 45 acp with me fishing a week ago. We saw a small brown bear maybe a two year old about 250 pounds or so. The bear swam across the river and came in behind our tents and about 30 feet downstream of our camp and walked off without a care in the world. I had yelled at the bear several times and he hardly even looked up at me. While he was going around our camp three of us had handguns and we were at the ready following his every move.(two 41 mag blackhawks with 265 and 293 grain hardcast bullets, and me with a 45acp and 230 fmj's). I know my .41 with those 293 grain bullets penetrates very well. But I felt less than at ease with the .45acp. The next night at the camp I slept soundly with my other .45 in my tent, my .458 win mag and barnes X's. | |||
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| <.> |
An Alaskan guide had this piece of advice when looking over the .357 magnum a hunter had packed along for "bear protection." "You need to file down the front sight nice and smooth if you're intending to use that gun for bear . . . " " -- and why's that," asks the hunter. "So it don't catch when you decide to shove it up your butt and pull the trigger to get away from the bear." 44 magnum, revolver, soft point jacketed GAME bullets, as heavy as you can load. Bigger if you can get it. Otherwise, take a file to the front sight on that slide . . . | ||
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| One of Us |
Ditto. ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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