I've hunted for years with many friends, so of course bears come up from time to time.
One friend of mine was walking through the bush and looked to his right. Low and behold he saw movement in the bushes.
The next thing he knew, a bear stood up looking around. The bear (about thirty-five yards or so..) made eye contact with him and started to turn towards him as she came down.
Eight round of 308 (including three threw the hart), a dead bear layed within four feet of him.
The second story I heard about was from a friend of mine up north.
He was crossing a beaver damb on his trap line when he was charged by a big black. There was nowhere to go, so he pulle his rifle off his shoulder and proceeded to put one 22 short in his single action Cooey.
One small pop and the bear layed down.

Whatever you choose to use, shot placement means alot more than weight, speed and diamiter.
And for those who think I'm lieing, That black bear was the largest taken in the province of Alberta fo seven years running. He fired one 22 short into the left eye at about fifteen yards.

C'mon guys, let's start a raffle!!! I will do the backup with my 300 weath

[ 07-30-2002, 15:50: Message edited by: King Baboon ]

I have both a Ruger Super Redhawk .454 casull and a 1911. .45 acp. While firing one shot with the .454 i can empty a 8 shot mag in the same elapsed time. I would prefer the .45 acp. after all if it is a charge it will be fast and you dont have the time to fire enough shots with the .454 which kicks too much for its effectiveness. The .45 acp pistol can easily be converted to .45 super which sends a 230 gr. FMJ with 1200 fps. and it still fires normal .45 acp ammo. That is .44 magnum levels. Ace custom 45�s is working with these conversions.

I have spent a little time in Alaska and a lifetime in the woods of the interior northwest and have had Bear encounters and was saved by a very tough dog.I will have concur will the advice given by the Wilderness defense expert in the side bar on the article by a Ranger in Alaska who surived a bear Attack,This was in the last issue of Alaska Magazine 1. As heavy a rifle as you can handle ,short ,with sturdy iron sights and lots of pratice,I would add gun fit is important and reliability upmost.You would be stunned at the time frame and speed we are talking about here.A pump Mag. shotgun in hand maybe a good second and ANY handgun is a very far distant third choice.

Jeff Cooper:
"A bear defense course was recently held at Gunsite and turned up a couple of interesting points. One is that sheer power will not do. If you are in real danger from a bear, he will be on top of you, and what you need is penetration. Once a bear has got you down-or a lion, for that matter-you have to brain him, and you must do that at contact distance. A .357 snubby , using a very hard, sharp, pointed bullet, would seem to be the awnser. I have a friend who went this route while attempting to photograph a lion. He used a super .38 auto, and while he survived, he will never again have full use of his left hand."

Problem is, many of the areas I hike in, camp in, and just wander in, with my family, such as Grand Teton NP, Yellowstone, and Glacier, strictly forbid firearms. Along the lines of "I'd much rather be caught with it than caught in a situation without it", I do carry a handgun in those bear territories. I'd like to strap my S&W mod. 29 on, shoot; I'd like to carry my 375 H&H for that matter, but you just can't. I know, you can conceal a big handgun in your fanny pack, but I have to carry other stuff in there. My usual is to slip my 380 Mustang in my back pocket, totally unnoticable. Yeah, I know, it's not a grizzly gun, but it does go bang and that may be enough. Anyway, it sure makes me feel better and it's smaller than a can of bear repellant!

Shark Bait,

Just my opinion here, but I'd leave the Guide Gun home, and carry the Ruger 45LC. That's a lot of stuff to pack while fishing in some places in Alaska. While I have no idea where you'll be fishing, or if perhaps it's from a boat, it's been my experience that 'remote' fishing usually involves some hiking before reaching the 'honey hole.'

Going in not the problem, it's packing out all the fish and gear when finished. You'd be hard pressed to be carrying the rifle in any sort of manner where it can be brought to use quickly. It probably will be slung over a shoulder, as it smells a lot nicer than fish.

I could be way off, as this is just what I've experienced. Your choice in guns is good, the fact you've practiced is great, and I'm sure the Guide will appreciate having a client who's at least thought this thing out.

Speaking of Guides... That's another reason to pack the handgun over the rifle. Let the Guide carry the real bear protection, and you can back him up if things get tight.

Good luck on your trip, and I hope everything works out no matter what you decide.

Aug 18 02 man shoots and stops 400 to 45 lb sow grizzy with 9mm luger. On the Russian river AK a fisherman fired two rounds at 5 feet and drops sow after his stuip fishing buddy threw his shotgun at the same bear. Any gun is better then a sharp stick or a rock.

Did anyone see the Cabela's Alaska Hunting video series? A bowhunter set his bow down, picks up a 1911 style .45 Win Mag and drops a 10ft Kodiak in it's tracks with a head shot. The distance was 13 yards as I recall.
Wouldn't anything in the 9MM-.44 Mag range have been capable of punching the skull? I always suspected that any handgun shot to the body of a charging Brown bear will result in the shooter's demise slightly quicker than the bear's. Any brain shot would probably get the job done without a massive hand cannon.
I also will admit to A)never having shot a brown bear and B)Carrying .338s and .375s in bear country. (though I have stood next to a trained brown and marveled at its build-I was thinking at the time that I would only be able to stop it with a head shot-the body just didn't look like it would be impressed by anything my pistols could dish out)

my choice, Glock G20 10mm AUTO(maybe with the 6" optional barrel), with the hotest 180-200gr truncated cone FMJs you can find. thats 15(+1) rounds of ~.357 power. it will penatrate, and you should have enough ammo to finish it. -KBGuns

[ 09-03-2002, 03:00: Message edited by: KBGuns ]

I'd take the venerable 1911/.45acp over a 9mm,any day.I'd load with cast bullets,would rather the .45 colt,but,my two are one single shot,the other,single action,,,,,Maby the usp .40,very reliable gun.At least with the .45 you could crawl up the barrel and hide

I remember when Louis Kis got in the wrestling match with the griz coming out of the cage. He was just plain shooting at point blank range, and there wasn't a hell of a lot of aiming involved.

An old cowboy friend of mine killed one of the griz in Glacier National Park made famous in the book, "Night of the Grizzly". He killed it up on Gunsight Pass with a .357 revolver.

The Park Rangers kind of assume when they see a local license plate in Glacier, that the person is armed, and they don't bother them.

When using a .45 ACP for bear, the best method is to wait until you feel his tonsils closing in around your wrist, and then begin rapid fire.

tell ya the truth fellows,iwas huning out in halifax county,north carolina and i drove up upon a big water hole/mudhole,got out with ruger gp100 357mag on my side loaded with 180gr.xtp's at 1350fps or so and my 30/30 with win.170gr.pp's,walked around looking for deer sign and only found "bear"sign,a rear foot print bigger than my foot-print and a real deep print too...i was like"damn this a big bear out here and suddenley didntly feel happy with my 30/30 nor my 357,well even my 3006 heavy handloaded back in the truck.so,i got out of there...come to find out someone killed a black bear outa that area (out of season i might say)that weighed over 900 lbs.(no shit)wildlife found the skin and the works ,but the bear was guesstamated over 900lbs.on the foot/hoof,though someone killed it out of season and removed it before wildlife could find out....

They must have one heck a of a guessamater only true weights are the ones brought in whole and weigh. I seen a couple 600 plus black bears on the scale they are big a 900 is one good guessamation.

I spend a lot of time in big bear country, both at work and while hunting, fishing etc. Part of the answer lies in carrying something you will have handy while doing whatever activity it is that you are engaged in. I carry a 12 ga shotgun (work), a .300 win mag or a .45 colt with 310 gr hard cast at all other times and usually have both. The pistol is always on my hip and if I start to see bear sign I will make sure the rifle is close by. A pistol on the hip is better than a rifle on the bank when out in the middle of a river fly-fishing. However, none of this takes the place of using common sense and being aware of your surroundings. The odds of stopping a charging bear are not in your favor, but having a plan and being prepared increase your chances of survival.

Yall can keep your handguns. When It comes to bears It take my 870 Marine Magnum with 6 3" Inch Rifled Slugs. I would feel better with those 1 oz. Slugs than with 300-350 grain bullets, and you will be able to fire off more shots faster than you could with a .44 Mag or definately a .454 Casull.

In king salmon where I work as a commercial fisherman in the summer there were 2 bears killed with hand guns this year, one was shot right between the eyes with a 45 ACP when it came out of the weeds and growled at the guy, the second was shot 6 times with a 44mag desert eagle, it stood up and the guy shot it in the face twice, it fell over and he put 4 more into its head because he thought it was just knocked cold.

In a real charge, you are likely to get off one, maybe two shots, no matter what caliber or how big the magazine. Now, you best be shooting something that has the power to do the job with one shot, rather then something that won't even phase the bear. If you can't shoot accurately, then it really doesn't matter how many inaccurate follow up shots you make.

I'm of the mindset that one should take a suitable caliber, whether it be handgun or rifle, and both have their uses. To those that say they'll take a shotgun over a handgun, I don't think they have spent much time in the bush, as their will be times when the long arm is inaccessable. I also think there is a great deal of optomism as to the effectiveness of 00 and slugs on bears under real world, ie less then ideal conditions. Just because you have a magazine full of marginally effective rounds, doesn't make it a good choice.

In a handgun, I'm partial to 44 mag on up with 300 gr or heavier hard cast. I carry a 480 loaded with 460 gr bullets. For a long gun, I'm partial to a 338 win mag, on up with a well constructed heavy for caliber bullet.

Yeah, you might have the same shot presentation as the guy with the 9mm but then again, you might not

boys, boys,boys, as a former hiker in British Columbia ,the home of one third of all the black bears in Canada,not to mention griz, brown and polars, I think your blowing smoke.In addition to the above we have a serious problem with cougars on Vancouver Island that have a record of tearing the unsuspecting a new rectal aperture. I have personally been face to face with large blacks at close quarters in areas where firearms are not allowed (this is virtually everyhere in Liberal dominated Canada).There are few things as intimidating as knowing you are the lowest on the food chain in the woods (for all you big hunters just imagine your reaction to the attack of a rabid squirrel). Whenever I walked the back country I carried my Desert Eagle 50 A.E. in my back pack, until I was clear of human eyes (remember this action is a criminal offence in Canada).My personal feeling is that it may not save my ass in the event of an ugly encounter but it will likely beat pleading for mercy. God bless the U.S.A. where you still are allowed to protect yourself.

Hello:
Anyone who is considering the possibility on Bear Attacks, should read Stephen Herrero's book of the same name. Most of the time, this type of discussion is purely academic. By the time you realize the bear is charging its too late, except maybe to kiss your ass good bye. Having killed bears of both varieties, I would suggest, if you have a Hand Gun, you might be better off to just blow your brains out and end it quickly and painlessly. But then, it seem to me there was a logger in B.C. a few years ago, who successfully killed an attacking Grizzly with his chainsaw.
Griz

imo all of ya'll need to stay away from the crack pipe.

harleytwo polar bears in BC I don't think so. before shooting one self check your facts.

Has someone has been lying to me? I have be told that a 357 mag. w/125 gr. JHP is a 95% one shot man stopper. Is this not the reason the 375 Sig came to be?

I pack a 357 Sig in a H&K Compact when I am in the woods, easy carry with lots of ammo, and I have not yet had a failure to function of any kind.

I find the 357 Sig is an easy gun to shoot accuratly, in fact the gun I carry is one of the most accurate and comfortable to fire of any that I own.

[ 11-08-2002, 07:06: Message edited by: Vman ]

p dog shooter,
you are correct. I did get a little too all inclusive. However, because it is estimated that half of the worlds polar bears inhabit the far northern and artic regions of Canada and that the similarity between grizzly and polars is such that they have been known to successfully interbreed, I ask your forBEARance for my inaccurately extending their considerable range.

Vman,that gun and load are fine for two legged varmits has been for years,but its not designed for deep penitration,better men than me have said for years nothing smaller than the 41 mag for bears,If you hae seen the old film showning those rangers in the park shooting the griz after it came out of the trap you have to understand that is the weapon they are issued to carry on daily patrol,those who patrol the back country mostly carry the 44 mag.

Ditto on filing off the front sight of ANY handgun that you are going to use for bear protection. I'm sitting here laughing my bunns off at all of you guys who are talking about 38 specials or 357 magnums or 45 acp's or even 44 mags being what you'd carry for bear protection.
I live in brown bear country and hunt in big bear country and commercial fish in big bear country. I carry a Raging Bull in 454, not because it is a good bear gun, but because it is the most powerful that I can carry and still have both hands free to work. I know that if I'm lucky, I'll hear or see the bear in time to get off one shot. Guys, a small brown will weigh 450 or 500 pounds, and a big brown will weigh 800 to 1000 lbs and he doesn't ride everywhere in his pickup, and he kills things with his hands and teeth for a living. Their life is tough and they live accordingly. Law of the jungle. Kill or be killed. Even their sex partner will do them in if they are inept!!! Do you realize that his mouth is large enough to take your whole head inside, and powerful enough to crush your skull if he is pissed. (A surveyor had that very thing happen when he walked past a 450lb sow's den in late March a few years back down on the Kenai peninsula). You don't have to be afraid of the big bear, but you sure had better respect him and his needs and his abilities. If you don't, you could get into big trouble quick.
A GOOD bear gun is a 12 guage short barreled pump shooting 3 inch magnums 600gr slugs at 1500 fps, or a 45-70 lever gun with 405gr handloads at 2000 fps, or anything bigger. Velocity is not critical; big and heavy with ENOUGH velocity is the requirement. You want to put a big heavy slug THROUGH his shoulder, and THROUGH his lungs and heart, and THROUGH his guts, and OUT through his rear hips and his ASS. You won't kill him immediately with the shot just described, but you will make him BELIEVE that YOU are a bigger bear than he is, and that he should leave.
I had to make that shot 20 years ago on a Toklat grizzly (400 lbs) at 15 feet from the hip with a 300 Winchester Magnum using handloads of 200gr Speer bullets at a hot 3000fps. 4300 ft/lbs of energy!!! But I had stumbled onto his moose kill, and he wasn't having any of it. His jaws were still snapping when he ran over me and knocked me down. Then he ran another 100 yds before he dropped. I got my breath back and tottered around til I recovered my rifle, then watched him die, all the while pissing in my pants and glorying in the fact that I was still alive.
I once followed a big sow who was frightened by my semi truck for 1/4 mile. 33MPH !!!!! Olympic 100meter dash men run 18 mph
COME ON GUYS!!! QUIT SMOKIN' THAT STUFF !!!!! A 38 special penetrates a grizzly hide and fat 2-3 inches, a 357 penetrates 5 inches, a 41 mag about 9 inches, a 45 auto about3 inches, a 44 mag about 12 inches. And I won't even mention Conan with the knife !!! BIG MISTAKE !!!!! Several years ago, 2 survivalists were fishing near Tok, Alaska. They put 2 clips from a MAC (9 or 10) the 45 apc caliber mac) into a brown bear shortly before he killed them both, slowly. The guys were so badly mangled that the families didn't know which was which.
Any questions ???

You had better file the front and rear sights off because when that bear gets ahold of you it is going to hurt alot where he puts the gun.

Does anyone here remember the National Geographic photographer that was taking pictures of a sow and her cubs, I think ther were browns. The camera that was found showed the sow and cubs on a hill side quite a distance away. In 4 or 5 photos the bear crossed that distance and all they found of him was some clothing, and the camera. Bears are much faster than you would ever think. I have shot and killed 3 bears in Canada. They all died quickly. 7mm mag, and .338 mag. All were broadside shots. The outfitter said don't try a frontal shot as the hair and fat wil make you not hit the vitals. They look a lot bigger than the frontal cross section is. You cannot carry a sidearm in Canada. Also the guide is a forest management guy. He can't carry legally either. That does not mean that he does not carry while baiting for bears though. They deserve all the respect you can give them. Go with the biggest handgun that you are "comfortable" with. If you don't or can't handle recoil it don't matter what you are shooting.

After reading the post where the gent talks of being on a Forest "Service" work crew and the Feral Gub'mint prohibiting the carrying of firearms for protection. This is a religious thing for someone who instituted that policy. Think about it.

What better way to worship the god/goddess/gaiea/mother earth than by offering up a human sacrifice?

If I worked a crew I would have something on me.

To contrast the lunacy, back in 1976 I was living in Juneau Alaska and was shooting at Montana Creek range. Forest "Service" work crew came up. One JBT had a short barreled .375 H&H and the other a 12 gauge riot gun. They were training CETA (? a work program i.e. welfare) group on using the rifle and shotgun for...you guessed it, bear protection while building trails. Amazing what a different komerade in office will do for policy.

Jeremy W........that man you saw in a video (didn't know they had such a thing going) I know spoke to on a couple of occasions while in his area. He was carrying a .357 mag pistol, if in fact it was the same officer. He was on his back that fast before the pistol was drawn. The bear broke the bone in his leg and mauled him pretty good before a bullet struck the bear in the head killing it then. He later went to a 44 magnum as his service revolver.

It was the young driver's fault in the truck for not driving off as soon as he hollered "GO NOW". The driver had put on a set of head phones and was listening to music, instead of paying attention to his job requirements.

If your going to carry a pistol at all, it would be a good idea to have it teathered to your belt. This is in case you fall or get knocked to the ground and lose grip on the gun. You can find it much faster if a good line is attacted to the pistol. I carry a model 29 Smith & Wesson all the time. The 45apc's I shoot at paper targets are NOT the caliber or energy lever needed on a grizzly bear.

Jeremy,

As a carry handgun in bear country as opposed to a hunting handgun I would opt for the Smith & Wesson Model 627 .357 Magnum 8-Shot using Full Moon Clips loaded with 180 grain Federal CastCore. I like the bullet shape that can be reliable used in a revolver better than that of the semi-auto pistol. I would prefer the two extra rounds in the .357 over the 6-shot 41's,44's and 45's. I would choose a DA revolver over a SA revolver for this type defense system.

B

The black bears I've met face to face have been no problem at all, they ignored me. They go as high as 700 lbs here. But I wouldn't do a dumb thing like get between mom and her kids. In northern NJ there's a zoo which used to have the largest brown bear in captivity, 2000 lbs !!!! The claws were as big as bananas. Defence against that ? RPG, 20mm gatling. The first rule is to always avoid dangerous things.

Jeremy,

One more comment I would offer is the jamming of the semi-automatic if you have no choice but to push the muzzle directly against the bears hide. Pushing on the muzzle with engage the disconnect NOT allowing the pistol to fire its round. Whichever caliber you choose, I think a DA revolver will serve you better.

B