quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Whitworth wrote:

quote:

No reason at all to get hot under the collar

I didn't. I simply stated the facts EXACTLY as they are.

But for whatever reason, this is one forum where the facts and/or the truth don't go over very well.

Not going to argue with you, Bobby.

Again, Happy New Year to all of you!

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Geez guys, enough! We are just rehashing old arguments, and opening old wounds! The author did not claim that he had killed a deer with the 38 special, he just demonstrated the penetration that was achieved with that particular round. On the African hunting forum they do this all the time ie. shoot rounds at an already dead animal so that they can recover the bullet, examine the wound channel and thereby get some "real world" experience of the effectiveness of the round.
Peter.

Peter, you are 100% spot on...

JWP, I just have to ask, what is it with the Spot on. I hear this on the hunting shows all the time, mostly from the English hunters.

Just asking...

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
JWP, I just have to ask, what is it with the Spot on. I hear this on the hunting shows all the time, mostly from the English hunters.

Just asking...

Spot-On was a brand name for a line of toy cars and commercial vehicles built in Northern Ireland (UK). Spot-on is also British slang meaning "just so" or "exactly right".

I know what it meant, was just curious as to why a Southern man would use the term. Kind of out of place to me...

It's a term that is used here as well......

Cheerio......

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
It's a term that is used here as well......

Cheerio......

Yea I would use that one also.... NOT...

I don't know, folks who get out and travel around may pick up certain words and phrases from the places they have been.

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
I don't know, folks who get out and travel around may pick up certain words and phrases from the places they have been.

Cheers

Oh so true.......

Back to the topic, I'd bet serious money that I can kill a whitetail deer with a revolver in .22 LR if it was legal. Does that make it adequate for deer? Of course not. We owe it to the game to use cartridges that have sufficient power so that a shot that while still good, but is not perfectly placed will kill the animal in a reasonably short time period. IMO that basically precludes the .38 Spec and anything smaller. To repeat, a fine shot, waiting for a good animal position can kill one with almost anything but that doesn't make it right or a decent cartridge for a conscientious hunter to use.

I watched a mythbusters show last night about why stone age people spent so much time and effort to make flint heads for their arrows and why they didn't use pointed sticks that were easier to make and penetrated almost as far. As if penetration in itself was enough! I almost dropped my beer!
They got to the size of the hole in the hide but had no concept of internal damage along with a large hole that lets out blood so the animal can be found.
About the same thing with small calibers that make a mess inside but the entry hole is so small, the deer can be lost unless you can watch it ALL the time. Two holes is not good enough either if internal damage is too little.

We are trusted to reach a balance of killing power and the ability to find the animal if it goes out of sight.
An animal could be killed with a pointed stick, more sticks would be better but I think after a lot of cavemen were killed or maimed, they had enough brains to develop a weapon that killed faster.
Now with all of the modern developments in effective guns for anything on earth from the horrible chipmunk to the largest game, why go back to a pointed stick?
There is not a single person here that would hunt with military ball ammo yet it seems to be OK to use a sub powered handgun because it can poke a hole. Sure both can kill! Not the point at all, the key word is "CAN", not "WILL".
I choose to use a gun that "WILL" kill.
Talking revolvers, there is not a single person here that can hold a 1" group at 50 yd's off hand with a powerful revolver and most can't do it from a rest. Boolit placement can not be preached when nobody is sure how far off a boolit will hit from the aiming point. If you have every single deer at 10 yd's, perfectly presented, then you can talk that way, you can flinch and still hit the thing.
The solution is a big enough gun and a good bullet/boolit.
The easiest way I have to demonstrate the folly of hitting a deer in the spine or in the heart off hand with a revolver at all ranges is for me to put a stick sideways with a balloon hung from it at ranges from 10 yd's to 100 yd's and have all of you over to shoot to see just how quick you stop hitting anything. I can add a brain size balloon for the head. I want to see for myself all those that can hit a 2", a 3" balloon and a 1" sideways stick every shot at any range a deer will show up. I will go one better, when the range gets a little far, I will let you use sandbags!

Gatogordo and bfrshooter:

Both commentaries were well-stated and to the point -- and both were right on the money.

Many years ago, during my teenage days, I found that a Sheridan Blue Streak pumped 8 times would penetrate the skull of a previously-dispatched coyote using the yellow-box cylindrical pellets. Later, I even proceeded to cleanly kill a couple trapped 'yotes using that very same rig.

Yes, it worked -- at point blank range and with a carefully-placed shot to the brain. But do you think I ever took that pellet rifle out varmint calling??? No way...

AHHH!!!

BUT...

If I throw my pointed stick,I can pop the balloon!

THATS IT!


I'm going to the spear hunting forum....

quote:

Talking revolvers, there is not a single person here that can hold a 1" group at 50 yd's off hand with a powerful revolver and most can't do it from a rest.

Give me a break, I don't think there is ONE person in the world who can shoot a consistent 1 inch group at 50 yds with a powerful revolver and the group that can do it off the bench isn't much larger. Bets?

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
I don't know, folks who get out and travel around may pick up certain words and phrases from the places they have been.

Cheers

Yea I was in Canada Ah...

quote:

Give me a break, I don't think there is ONE person in the world who can shoot a consistent 1 inch group at 50 yds with a powerful revolver and the group that can do it off the bench isn't much larger. Bets?

My point exactly when I hear boolit placement is the way to kill. We are using handguns but I bet almost everyone here can't place a rifle bullet exactly, off hand either and will need a rest.
The small guns are VERY close range deals.
I know very well what would happen when someone takes a .38 deer hunting and sees a 260 class buck at 60 yd's! They would either cuss at themselves for being stupid or would shoot at the buck and cripple it for the buzzards to eat.
I have shot with thousands of guys over the years and still shoot with many hundreds. There are only a few winners at the matches and they are ALWAYS the same guys month to month.
I was always at the top or close to it with muzzle loaders, even flintlocks, off hand to 200 meters. I was an international class IHMSA shooter and was always at or near top. But at the time there were only TWO shooters in the country that could shoot a great score off hand. One was a woman that I shot with. She shot 37 out of 40 and it held for a long time until a guy hit 38.
I shoot better now off hand at long range then I ever did in my life however there is no way I can make consistent pin point shots but there is a lot of deer to shoot at so the proper gun is still needed. I will not limit myself to 10 or 20 yd's when I am used to killing deer to 100 yd's.
Whitworth and I have been able to hold consistent 6" groups off hand with our .475's at 100 yd's. We practice on liter bottles and tore one to shreds at 86 yd's and I have hit spray paint cans at 100.
Common sense dictates that we don't use small guns at ANY range. I will not hunt with less then a .44 mag and love the .475 best of all.
The reason is that as good as we shoot, it is not possible to place a boolit exactly on every animal unless you are close enough to shake hands.
Then how many guys here are dead calm like I am when a deer shows up? 95% of you will have your hearts beating like crazy and hands shaking so bad you can't find the hammer or trigger, never find the sights, peek at the shot and have no idea where the boolit went. Buck fever is BAD for a revolver shooter. I don't get buck fever, a deer is just another deer and more butchering.
For those that want to use a .357 or .38 and are capable, that's fine because you are calm and confident and know the limits.
For the rest, think back and remember how excited you were. One thing we NEVER read about here are the misses, cripples and lost deer! I have lost deer, not proud of it but it happens.
A keyboard can make everyone a super deadly shot that never misses and can crack a deer in the brain at 200 yd's off hand.

For all of the above mentioned reasons I refuse to use even a .30 caliber rifle -- the hole it makes is obviously too small.......

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
For all of the above mentioned reasons I refuse to use even a .30 caliber rifle -- the hole it makes is obviously too small.......

That is why I like the Marlin in 45-70.

I call my .338 win mag my sqirrel gun......

Why would you want to be so disrespectful to the squirrels by using such a small caliber. Must be shooting them really close.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
I don't know, folks who get out and travel around may pick up certain words and phrases from the places they have been.

Cheers

Yea I was in Canada Ah...

That explains a lot of things.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
Why would you want to be so disrespectful to the squirrels by using such a small caliber. Must be shooting them really close.

Point blank. Shooting animals from a long distance is unethical and immoral.

The ones I would worry about are those prehistoric chipmunks! Maybe a .458 would be better.
Marko has mounted teeth that look like a saber tooth!

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
Why would you want to be so disrespectful to the squirrels by using such a small caliber. Must be shooting them really close.

Point blank. Shooting animals from a long distance is unethical and immoral.

Hey wait a minute, I resemble that remark...

It was a comment made on your behalf......