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As can be seen by the photo the2" J-Frame 38 Special will Pentrate enough and will kill Deer  Recovered bullets 158 grain Remington jacketed flat point from a 4" Model 19 357 and th 130 jackted flat point from the 38 special J-Frame    The J-Frame 130 grain Jacketed Flat Point found on the offside after going through the heart The bullet ent thrugh a rib on entrance and a rib on the offside _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | ||
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Before this turns into S... Storm II, thanks for sharing the information. | |||
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How far was the deer, how far did it run after the impact, and what was the velocity of the load? For reference, exactly what was the 158 grain bullet recovered from, and what were the details? Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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The details were as follows, the animal was shot quarter towards the shooter with the Model 19 357 mag 158 grain jacketd flat point (1240 FPS) and the finisher was applied with the J-Frame 38 Special 130 grain flat point jackted Winnchester factoryload FPS unknown) flat point The 357 penetrated 24" _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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HA-HA, the truth!  It was shot with a .357 first and the bullet was recovered, Then it was shot at close range with a .38 because it was still alive. That bullet was recovered too. No big bone hit, no quartering away shot so the bullet had to go through a lot before reaching the boiler room. You have only proven that the .38 will kill, not that it is a viable hunting caliber except in the hands of an expert, at close range and with perfect deer presentation. Sorry to start a S storm again but I will stay with the .41 and up. None of my deer pose for me!  Let's see how long this thread goes now.  | |||
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Way to go bfrshooter start it going again.. But I have to agree with you 100%  If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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I DO have fun!  | |||
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No, there is not going to be another shit storm over this. You've had your say and this is going to a civil discussion or I'll start shutting the crap down. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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No worries MS Hitman, I said what I had to say in the last thread, and I stand by what I said. And I will leave it at that.  If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Everyone can express their opinions, we're just not going to have a repeat of the previous thread on this discussion. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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Dead is dead, gentlemen. I have put finishing shots on animals shot with much bigger calibers with lots of ME....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Finishing shots, what's that?   If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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OK, I agree. I thought it was good for a laugh though. Kind of reminds me of when I had a 14" chainsaw and I was cutting down 4' diameter trees. Then I cut it into firewood and split it by hand. I finally bought a bigger saw and a log splitter. There will be guys that say a 10" saw is good enough! All right, I will shut up!  | |||
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I'm all for laughing, even at myself. Let's just make sure this thing doesn't turn ugly. If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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There you go with the name calling... (UGLY). If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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The 357 158 grain penetraed 24" as the animal was quartering towards the shooter and went down in about 10 yards from a liver hit.. The 38 was used to test penetration and it was enough even with the 130 grain jacketed bullet. Ths is definately not the best bullet for the purpose, a 160 or 180 gran flat point hard cast would penetrate farther and produce a larger wound channel. This was also a standard load not a +P _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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We talked about it. We argued about it. And you went out and did it. Good job, jwp, you put your money where your mouth is.  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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As bfrshooter refered to.
The only thing that was done was, he used the 375 Mag on his first shot. Not the 38 special. I don't think anyone ever said you can walk up to an animal and shoot it with a 38 special and it would bounce off. Yes it will "Pentrate" a deer. Hell I have kill deer with a 357 Mag, and I am sure I could do it with a 38 special as well, but that was not what the argument was all about. So I have to disagree with your statement about "put your money where your mouth is" I have seen people finish off animals with a 22 L/R. But that does not make the 22 L/R the next deer cartridge.  If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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But you seem to like to disagree, Redhawk .I don't think that extra speed of the .357 had a whole hell-of-a-lot to do with the kill. He did go out and do it and instead of just arguing on the internet he actually goes out and hunts. Give credit where it's due. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Enough! If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out. | |||
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Not going to get back into another pissing contest.  But why wasn't the 38 special used in the first place? But like I said 1000 times, I am sure the 38 will kill a deer. I just believe there are better choices. That is my only point here. MS Hitman we are not arguing, it is a friendly discussion, lighten up already. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Whitworth, I sent you a PM.  If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Sorry dad.......  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I think we all agree and nobody got out of shape. It was actually a pretty calm post so maybe we better stop here! Great job guys, for not making it bad!  | |||
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What, are you trying to instigate something here?? "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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There is a lot of assuming going on here. David choose t use the 357 Mag, despite the fact that he could havechosen any o of my my revolvers to use. I used the 38 special after the animal was on th ground. Th 357 id just fine and with the angle of the animal the bullet entered thetig cage at the shoulder juncture and destroyed th liver. Thisshot made short work of it. There is no dought in my mind that a wide flat piont hard cast 160 or 180 grain bullet loaded to +P presures would be perfectly adequate for Deer sized game. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Marko- Actually, Redhawk1 is not disagreeing. He is simply stating the facts. This is how the thread began. "J-Frame 38 Special enough For Deer"
Then you wrote: "We talked about it. We argued about it. And you went out and did it. Good job, jwp, you put your money where your mouth is" --------- Really??? Will someone please show me WHERE in this thread a deer was killed by a .38 Spl??? Let's be honest here. It didn't happen -- as noted by jwp himself in this statement: "Th 357 id just fine and with the angle of the animal the bullet entered thetig cage at the shoulder juncture and destroyed th liver. Thisshot made short work of it." The deer was killed with a .357 Mag, not a J-frame .38 Spl. I have no problem with people making cases for whatever caliber they want, but this thread totally misrepresents its title and opening statement. I do believe that is what Redhawk1 was trying to convey. If not, then I owe Redhawk1 an apology. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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No it doesn't misrepresent anything. the 38 Special with the 130 grain non-+P load penetrated through both sides of the rib cage and in doing so put a hole though the Heart. That is definitely enough to kill a Deer,making the 38 enough for Deer, Period. The bullet went through a rib bone both sides. A better bullet and load would only make it better and it was enough as is. No one is saying the a 38 special is the best, only that it is enough. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I don't find this a misrepresentation at all. The bottom line is instead of all of the theorizing we do here (myself included), jwp hit the field and did some real world testing. No reason at all to get hot under the collar and Redhawk and I are not arguing, but we are discussing. Chill out, Bobby, it's all good....... Happy New Year, folks! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Yes we all know a .38 special will kill a deer. But I can say with certainty, that we all agree there are better choices. Happy New Years you all you hard heads... If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Pete brought his deer kills home and got out his RWS pellet gun and shot a bunch of shots into deer heads. All pellets penetrated into the brain. He said you can borrow it for next season! | |||
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Geez guys, enough! We are just rehashing old arguments, and opening old wounds! The author did not claim that he had killed a deer with the 38 special, he just demonstrated the penetration that was achieved with that particular round. On the African hunting forum they do this all the time ie. shoot rounds at an already dead animal so that they can recover the bullet, examine the wound channel and thereby get some "real world" experience of the effectiveness of the round. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Whitworth wrote:
I didn't. I simply stated the facts EXACTLY as they are. But for whatever reason, this is one forum where the facts and/or the truth don't go over very well. Bobby Μολὼν λαβέ The most important thing in life is not what we do but how and why we do it. - Nana Mouskouri | |||
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Putting holes in a dead animal proves nothing, but that you can make a hole in a dead animal. You want "real world" experience, go hunting with the round and shoot some live animals with it, not dead ones. That my friend is "real world" experience ! If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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Blah, blah, blah........Happy New Year!! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Back at you Whitworth, you all take care. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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I'm having a drink right now! I wish you all a happy new year. | |||
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Have one for me, Happy New Year bfrshooter. If you're going to make a hole, make it a big one. ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Member of the Delaware Destroyers Member Reeders Misfits NRA Life Member ENDOWMENT MEMBER NAHC Life Member DSA Life Member | |||
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