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Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Not "barrel time" but maintained velocity and energy from boolit weight or starting velocity.
A 220 gr from a 30-06 will shoot flatter over distance then a 150 gr. Even though the 150 starts faster, it bleeds velocity faster and will drop more.

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On light bodied game the very high velocity revolver rounds will give impressive wound trauma results. Move up to truly bIG gane and the big bore revolvers are the ones that truly shine in the wound trauma department

Anytime someone calims that more velocity in a revolver is better for longer ranges because of less bullet drop, that is the tip off that thye have limited experience shooting a big bore revolver at long range

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Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Not so, sight at 75 yards with any revolver and barrel rise or time does not affect it after that range. The point of the boolit leaving the barrel does not change as distance increases.
It does not matter if you sight for 25, 50, 75 or 100 yards, the boolit leaves at the same point even with elevation changes for distance.
It is the boolits ability to maintain velocity that makes it shoot flatter. A change in boolit design can make it drop like a rock or shoot flat too. But on the average, the heavy boolit holds better. That is not to say a lighter, faster boolit will not shoot flat.
Your barrel time will not change with the same load no matter if you shoot 25 or 200 yards.

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bfrshooter, you are missing the point. If the revolver is sighted in with a faster load and then a slow load is shot, the bullet will srike higher and this is a function of recoil and barrel time. The slow load doesn't leave the barrel at the same speed therefore the arc of the barrel rise during recoil is greater and this gives the appearence of shooting flatter than it accualy does.
No, we are talking the same load with the same boolit. Barrel time does not change nor does barrel rise.

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Originally posted by bfrshooter:
No, that was JWP. For some reason my response is right in with what I copied from him.
My answer was for the same boolit at the same velocity. Barrel rise is the same no matter the distance shot.
I have had trouble with the computer sorting response with answers.
I copy and paste but my answer is right in with what I copy.

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Originally posted by Farrier Matt:
I always thought heavier bullets hit higher than lighter ones because the bore was higher before the bullet exited because of a lower velocity with heavier bullets or stonger recoil if velocity is equal. Thats my experience anyway.

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Because of the increase in barrel time, I have found that my big bores at more subdued velocities actually drop less at range than any of my much hotter .454 loads.

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Originally posted by jwp475: bfrshooter, you are missing the point. If the revolver is sighted in with a faster load and then a slow load is shot, the bullet will srike higher and this is a function of recoil and barrel time. The slow load doesn't leave the barrel at the same speed therefore the arc of the barrel rise during recoil is greater and this gives the appearence of shooting flatter than it accualy does.

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Originally posted by MS Hitman:
All of you could sort this out; if only you understood physics.

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quote:
Originally posted by jwp475: bfrshooter, you are missing the point. If the revolver is sighted in with a faster load and then a slow load is shot, the bullet will srike higher and this is a function of recoil and barrel time. The slow load doesn't leave the barrel at the same speed therefore the arc of the barrel rise during recoil is greater and this gives the appearence of shooting flatter than it accualy does.


dvnv, jwp explained it well here. There really isn't much complicated about it. Try it out, seriously.

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Originally posted by dvnv:

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Originally posted by jwp475: bfrshooter, you are missing the point. If the revolver is sighted in with a faster load and then a slow load is shot, the bullet will srike higher and this is a function of recoil and barrel time. The slow load doesn't leave the barrel at the same speed therefore the arc of the barrel rise during recoil is greater and this gives the appearence of shooting flatter than it accualy does.


dvnv, jwp explained it well here. There really isn't much complicated about it. Try it out, seriously.

I would think the 75 yard zero would have already made the adjustment. If you use the same bench, barrel length and hold, the bullet from a light fast verses heavy slow is going to leave the barrel very close to the same point. If they both hit zero at 75 yards, the slow one is going to drop more at 200. Assuming they both fly true. dvnv

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The problem is that isn't how it works. The slower bullet will leave the barrel slower and the baqrrel angle wil be higher when the bullet exits thus the bullets hits the target higher.
We are talking big bores here

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Originally posted by dvnv:

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The problem is that isn't how it works. The slower bullet will leave the barrel slower and the baqrrel angle wil be higher when the bullet exits thus the bullets hits the target higher.
We are talking big bores here

I understand and agree with the concept of a slower bullet hitting higher. The difference in barrel angle is small...and if anything, I'd guess the heavy bullet leaves the barrel at a slightly higher point relative to its sighting position, as compared to a lighter faster bullet.

So, you have both hitting zero at 75 yards (as stated by Whitworth and bfrshooter), and both starting from about the same point in space (if anything the heavier bullet starts from a slightly higher point). I can't believe the slower bullet is going to drop less at 200. For that to be true, the slower bullet would have to be rising significantly at 75 while the faster would have to be dropping...I don't think that is the case. All this with the assumption that both bullets fly true to 200 yards.

Heck, I am just pointing it out so Whitworth doesn't put it in an article somewhere and get the physics community all worked up.

If I am wrong, someone will have to explain it to me in a way I can understand. dvnv

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No one ever said the slower bullet doesn't have more actual drop. The same difference in barrel rise make a huge difference in point of impact.

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The .475 with a 420 gr drops 18" at the same velocity the .44 was shot at.

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Originally posted by dvnv:

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No one ever said the slower bullet doesn't have more actual drop. The same difference in barrel rise make a huge difference in point of impact.

But both are zero at 75 yards, the barrel rise has been corrected for. If I read bfrshooter and Whitworth correctly, they are both saying the slower bullet has less drop.

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No, that is not what I nor Whitworth is saying. We are saying if the gun is sighted in with the faster load, then the slower load will hit higher because of barrel time and the higher angle of the barrel due to recoil.

If each load is sighted in seperately, then the sights correct for the barrel time and recoil rise.

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Whitworth is correct in the reply that you quoted and all one has to do to verfy that is to shoot the 2 side by side with the same length barrles at 500 yards. But that is toally different that what was the original question which is a slower VS a faster load in the same gun that is zero'ed with the faster load

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"Drop, drop is silly. The .44 with a 320 to 330 gr boolit will drop 35" at 200 yards. The .475 drops about 18" with the same zero of 75 yards."

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bfrshooter: They make programs that run the math for all this stuff. They might not be a perfect match for real world, but they aren't off by much. I think you need to re-test your 475 load at 200 yards, start with confirming the 75 yard zero. If it really drops 18 inches with a 75 yard zero, you are using magic bullets, have re-written physics, or the BFR shoots them really fast.

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Posted 15 January 2011 02:00 Hide Post
bfrshooter: That you can make a good re-load and shoot it well was never in question. You do both better than I have ever done.

FWIW, the math says your 44 load should drop 31" and your 475 load should drop 30"...75 yard zero, 1.5" of sight height. A few inches is hard to see at 200 yards without magnification, it was the foot or so that I was calling into question. Still do. Can't argue with your accuracy though. dvnv

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Sure, it is hard to get exact measurements but I shoot at the same targets and try to use the same hold.
But in all of my years of rifle and revolver shooting I have never found printed drop figures accurate. They are based on math and assumptions. Too many boolit designs and shapes to depend on.
Only the military with fixed bullets and loads can get it right.
The wide range of boolits we shoot throws it all out.
I always shot every distance and took measurements or recorded scope settings for what I shot. I shot too many chucks in the eye at over 600 yards to depend on printed math.
You really need to shoot your boolits and loads to see what they do. What you use might be WAY off what I shoot but if they equal the printed charts, you are just lucky.
What I tell you is with my boolits, at my velocity, from my guns and if you find different things with what you shoot, neither of us are wrong.
Don't read charts, actually shoot the distances.

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They are based on math and assumptions.

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Originally posted by tradmark:
the best way to test this is what i did, and it was to take the loads, and shoot them out of an encore rifle with a scope on it. that way the zeroing is more accurate and so is my aiming point at 300 yards or more b/c i have a scope and can see exactly where i'm aiming much more precisely than with a red dot or iron sights. you'll find the results will mirror those on the ballistic calculator you used almost exactly.

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No, Peter, but the 18-inches of drop at 200 yards is being called into question. Now, that said, I shoot nearly the same load as bfrshooter -- same bullet, and a half a grain of powder more and my velocity is negligibly higher. We are both sighted in at about a 75 yard zero -- roughly. At the 200 yard line, we both get an 18-inch drop -- requiring holding approximately a foot and a half higher than the intended target. I have taken this shot over and over again with consistent results.