quote:

Sounds like you advocate different bullets according to the distance of the shot.

It's a good thing that the Carribou that I killed at about 150 yards with a 310 grain LBT HARD CAST at 1240 FPS didn't know that I needed to soften the bullet to make it work.

I do, but not drastic. But remember I am talking deer. You are talking a much larger animal.
You also used an LBT boolit, have you checked the hardness? All I have checked run 14 to 16 BHN and the nose can upset. In fact a friend recovered 3 last season from deer when the noses wiped off sideways on bone and the boolits turned to go through the guts or neck to stop under the skin. Yes, you are using a good alloy but my boolits run 22 to 25 BHN and will not upset.
The LBT is as good as it gets but I have not been able to duplicate the alloy yet and maintain the accuracy of the LBT. I am thinking 75% WW's and 25% pure, water dropped but have not made any yet.
I tried 50-50 and they were far too destructive, lost a lot of meat.
It only takes a tiny bit of tweaking to make a big change at the animal.
I don't like BHN readings anyway because even 50-50 can be oven hardened to 18, 20 BHN and still be destructive. These still need a gas check or they shoot like junk.
Hard cast does not always mean hard, this covers a million alloys. My boolits ARE hard but not brittle. No bone, wood, trees or 37" of soaked phone books will upset or shatter them.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

quote:

Sounds like you advocate different bullets according to the distance of the shot.

It's a good thing that the Carribou that I killed at about 150 yards with a 310 grain LBT HARD CAST at 1240 FPS didn't know that I needed to soften the bullet to make it work.

I do, but not drastic. But remember I am talking deer. You are talking a much larger animal.
You also used an LBT boolit, have you checked the hardness? All I have checked run 14 to 16 BHN and the nose can upset. In fact a friend recovered 3 last season from deer when the noses wiped off sideways on bone and the boolits turned to go through the guts or neck to stop under the skin. Yes, you are using a good alloy but my boolits run 22 to 25 BHN and will not upset.
The LBT is as good as it gets but I have not been able to duplicate the alloy yet and maintain the accuracy of the LBT. I am thinking 75% WW's and 25% pure, water dropped but have not made any yet.
I tried 50-50 and they were far too destructive, lost a lot of meat.
It only takes a tiny bit of tweaking to make a big change at the animal.
I don't like BHN readings anyway because even 50-50 can be oven hardened to 18, 20 BHN and still be destructive. These still need a gas check or they shoot like junk.
Hard cast does not always mean hard, this covers a million alloys. My boolits ARE hard but not brittle. No bone, wood, trees or 37" of soaked phone books will upset or shatter them.

I am also thankful that the little 99 pound pig that I dropped in his tracks with one shot with a 45 Colt and a 325 grain HARD CAST didn't know that they neede to be soift to be effective, and this was a lasered 218 yards

You should have seen the fox that thought he could run past me. I hit him with the 320 gr LBT. I swear he was smoking! I never seen an animal slammed down so hard.

The point is the hard cast work perfectly close or far without need to change alloy

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
The point is the hard cast work perfectly close or far without need to change alloy

Amen, brother!

This is why I prefer
a non lead bullet for when the bullet really HAS to not break up or disintegrate. That isr why I like Belt MT. They don't break.

So what is the difference between. HARD CAST. And a bullet with a brinell hardness of 21 or 22 . ?

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:So what is the difference between. HARD CAST. And a bullet with a brinell hardness of 21 or 22 . ?

A bullet (lead) with a BHN of 21 or 22 is a hardcast. Much harder and they get brittle.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:So what is the difference between. HARD CAST. And a bullet with a brinell hardness of 21 or 22 . ?

A bullet (lead) with a BHN of 21 or 22 is a hardcast. Much harder and they get brittle.

Exactly .....

O k. ..... thanks.

quote:

A bullet (lead) with a BHN of 21 or 22 is a hardcast. Much harder and they get brittle.

This is not true. BHN is an erroneous reading with nothing to do with the alloy. I can take 50-50 WW's and pure to 18 to 22 BHN by oven hardening and they will blow deer to pieces. They are still soft boolits. I can also take WW metal to 25 to 28 BHN and they act the same as 22 BHN, not brittle because the alloy is the same.
Change the alloy to say lino or adding more antimony and boolits can break and shatter even though the BHN might not be more then 25.
I have taken boolits to 30 BHN without them breaking.
Even though you make a softer alloy hard does not mean it will be accurate. A 50-50 alloy at 20 BHN NEEDS a gas check or it will spray the target. Sure, call it hard cast like a WW boolit at 20 to 22 but you would be wrong.
Some of you are calling a 14 BHN boolit "hard cast" because it feels hard. You have no idea at all what the alloy is or what it does on game. You compare it to mine that have a different alloy and will have a 100% different result on an animal.
JWP still does not get it that he is shooting a different alloy and his is actually disrupting when mine does not, even though he calls both "HARD."
BHN and "hard" is so far off what the lead actually does when it hits that boolit toughness might be a better measure.
My boolits are TOUGH and act like a FMJ but other alloys are as HARD as mine but act like a soft point.
Sorry but lead is not lead, is not lead and until every single one of us shoots exactly the same alloy and hardness, there is no argument that can be made.
Whitworth claims hard is best but he is also shooting the same velocity range and distance that I say is best for my tough boolits. JWP is shooting a softer and less tough boolit. You CAN recover the 320 LBT from deer but you will NEVER recover one of mine no matter what or where you hit.
So the question of what do you prefer is flawed.

By definition, a bullet with a 21 BHN is most definitely considered a hardcast bullet. The BHN tool merely measure how hard it is to make a dent in the bullet. Nothing too scientific, but a way of making comparison. You're picking fly feces out of pepper. I don't know what has gotten into you lately, but I think we need to change your handle from bfrshooter to bfrcontrarianshooter.

When you are asking someone what their preference is, there is no right or wrong answer, therefore the question cannot be "flawed." So, it would seem to me that it is you who does not seem to "get it."

quote:

JWP still does not get it that he is shooting a different alloy and his is actually disrupting when mine does not, even though he calls both "HARD."

bfrshooter, first off you have never seen a bullet that I shoot, so you cannot possibly say whether or not they deform. The bullets that I shoot will exit on American Buffalo and Asian Buffalo, SOFT I don't think so, Jim.

You need to stop posting pure BS....

quote:

Whitworth claims hard is best but he is also shooting the same velocity range and distance that I say is best for my tough boolits. JWP is shooting a softer and less tough boolit. You CAN recover the 320 LBT from deer but you will NEVER recover one of mine no matter what or where you hit.

First off my bullets are not soft and since you have never laid eyes on a bullet that I have cast and to make such a claim is absurd. I have shot my bullets completely through large mautre Elk, Bison and Asian Buffalo. Your claim that one would not exit a Deer is pure horse hockey.

quote:

Posted 28 January 2011 23:07 Hide Post
By definition, a bullet with a 21 BHN is most definitely considered a hardcast bullet. The BHN tool merely measure how hard it is to make a dent in the bullet. Nothing too scientific, but a way of making comparison. You're picking fly feces out of pepper. I don't know what has gotten into you lately, but I think we need to change your handle from bfrshooter to bfrcontrarianshooter.

When you are asking someone what their preference is, there is no right or wrong answer, therefore the question cannot be "flawed." So, it would seem to me that it is you who does not seem to "get it."

Not me, YOU!
I have 22 BHN boolits here that will in test media. They will stop in a few jugs of water.
You completely miss the alloy differences. BHN readings don't tell you anything but what the skin of the boolit measures.
Just hang on and I will make a test.

Here is an oven hardened boolit that is 22 BHN.

Now I removed some of the boolit for another measurement. Darn funny it is now 13.5 BHN.
Do you know the boolit can be scratched with a fingernail?
If you can call this hard cast, you need a lesson in lead.

Whitworth, I just checked one of the boolits I cast for your .50JRH and it is 30 BHN. Removing some of the boolit to get inside still shows 29 BHN.
Now explain what does hard cast mean.
It appears that none of you know a thing about lead and alloys or terminal performance. Just keep spouting that hard is best but you don't have any idea what the boolit actually did when it hit. You still think BHN is the answer but you are barking at the moon.
BHN readings at the surface of a boolit is a waste of time and does not tell you a single thing about boolit performance.
Now you was here when I shot this doe. I lost almost the entire shoulder and most meat was blood shot. Did you know the boolit was 22 BHN?
WOW, HARD CAST just plain works but you are wrong, the boolit was too soft.
Yet you still hang onto BHN readings like JWP.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Not me, YOU!
I have 22 BHN boolits here that will in test media. They will stop in a few jugs of water.
You completely miss the alloy differences. BHN readings don't tell you anything but what the skin of the boolit measures.
Just hang on and I will make a test.

You still don't seem to realize that this is a standard method used in the industry to test hardness. So what.

You also don't get that when asking someone their preference, there is no right or wrong answer. So, I repeat:

When you are asking someone what their preference is, there is no right or wrong answer, therefore the question cannot be "flawed." So, it would seem to me that it is you who does not seem to "get it."

You've sidetracked this thread by going off on a tangent.

You seem to have become even more of a contrarian than you are known to be.....yikes. You need to get out of the house more. I think you have cabin feaver. Here's your dead horse right back at ya:

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Whitworth, I just checked one of the boolits I cast for your .50JRH and it is 30 BHN. Removing some of the boolit to get inside still shows 29 BHN.
Now explain what does hard cast mean.
It appears that none of you know a thing about lead and alloys or terminal performance. Just keep spouting that hard is best but you don't have any idea what the boolit actually did when it hit. You still think BHN is the answer but you are barking at the moon.
BHN readings at the surface of a boolit is a waste of time and does not tell you a single thing about boolit performance.
Now you was here when I shot this doe. I lost almost the entire shoulder and most meat was blood shot. Did you know the boolit was 22 BHN?
WOW, HARD CAST just plain works but you are wrong, the boolit was too soft.
Yet you still hang onto BHN readings like JWP.

Oh, I'm sorry, did I miss the post about you having a degree in metalurgy? I defer to you.

I know that you are attempting to make a science of this by claiming that a different alloy is needed based on differing velocities. Your bullets are tough as we know, based on testing in media and on animals (I have actually tested them on animals much tougher in construction than deer), but there is absolutely no need to change the alloy because you are all of sudden shooting game at 150 yards instead of 80 yards. What in the hell has gotten into you?

I wish I could edit posts, I lose a word now and then.
It seems as if it is only Whitworth and JWP that fight with me. All others hang back and do some thinking.
I am surprised that Dick does not get mixed up in this. I hope I got his name right. He knows.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I wish I could edit posts, I lose a word now and then.
It seems as if it is only Whitworth and JWP that fight with me. All others hang back and do some thinking.
I am surprised that Dick does not get mixed up in this. I hope I got his name right. He knows.

Only we fight with you? Are you kidding? You've fought with nearly everyone on this site and all of the rest you attend. You need to go back and reread this thread.

FACT: The thread asked for members to state what their preference in bullets are for hunting.

FACT: Gumboot asked if a bullet of 21 to 22 BHN differs from a "hardcast" bullet. As per the accepted definition of a hardcast bullet, a bullet of 21 or 22 BHN is considered a hardcast.

FACT: You turned this into an argument of alloys, and called the thread "flawed" for asking a question that you did not want to accept at face value -- that is, what is your preference in bullets.

No one is questioning your decades of casting bullets and the knowledge you have obtained in the process. What is being questioned are some of the theories you have unleashed on this unsuspecting site -- such as needing a softer alloy when velocity is higher or the bullet will blow through the animal while doing minimal damage, and this is the one that I love the most that as distance increases and velocity decreases, a softer bullet is needed to do the most damage.

Now, if I somehow have confused the theses you have presented us with it's because you frequently go off on tangents and lose sight of the point you are trying to make, thereby confusing us -- well, at least me.

Now, you are claiming from that photo that the bullet has expanded yet you have no idea if it did or didn't as you have not recovered the bullet.

Whitworth, no, I am not an expert. But be assured I can make a boolit perform or fail depending on the velocity and distance. You still do not understand that BHN readings on a boolit mean nothing and a thousand alloys can have the same readings.
I can make a boolit that will blow a deer to pieces at close range and will work farther, Then one that works at close range and fails at 100 yards.
None of you can get past the truth that taking a BHN reading is made only at the surface of the boolit. What hardness would a boolit be with a pure lead core and a 40 BHN surface? Seems to me it would be called a JACKETED BULLET. ( I don't know the BHN of copper.) But you would be the first to say that a jacketed boolit that expands too fast is no good and one that does not expand is also no good, FMJ.
Just why do you think that all lead is the same?
Since I have not seen you shoot a deer much beyond about 20 yards yet you see me shoot them at 100 yards or more, how can you compare what your boolit does? I need to see you shoot deer at long range so you understand.
How about 180 yards on a pig, off hand like JWP does----what a joke!
Industry standards are with ONE alloy, not air cooled compared to water dropped or oven hardened or how antimony, tin, copper or any other alloy changes the end result.
How can you take an alloy at 12 BHN, water drop it to 22 bhn or oven harden to 25 BHN, then say the alloy has changed?

I can borrow Robby's two seat stand and will sit with you. No deer can be shot at less then 100 yards, I will holler at them, whatever, if they are too close. Use your boolit of choice.
I will stay behind and let you track and find every deer.

Hunting deer is something I do in the winter a couple of times and the rest of the year it is mainly hogs. I do get much longer shots where I hunt them. In North Carolina where I hunt them, I don't often get those gimme 20 yard shots. I can only surmise (as can you) the damage the bullets do by examining the internal damage of the animal. Why? Because we NEVER, EVER recover our hardcast bullets. So, you are simply guessing that a bullet did or did not expand.

I know for a fact that JWP made that shot on that hog. But you are wrong about the distance, it was 218 yards and it wasn't offhand, it was off of his knees. I've hunted with him and know how he shoots a revolver. Are you calling him a liar?

Now, here's a news flash: DEER AREN'T HARD TO KILL. They are not offering much resistence no matter what you shoot them with. I don't know what the big deal is.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I can borrow Robby's two seat stand and will sit with you. No deer can be shot at less then 100 yards, I will holler at them, whatever, if they are too close. Use your boolit of choice.
I will stay behind and let you track and find every deer.

There you go again. Challenging folks. I rarely, if ever get a close shot at hogs in North Carolina. The last one that ran after a 75 yard shot didn't require any tracking, so what really is the point you are trying to make here?

Oh, and by the way, like it or not, flawed or legit, approved by bfrshooter or not approved by bfrshooter, BHN testing is the industry standard. Hey, I don't make the rules......

What in the hell are we arguing about anyhow??

I like the bullets that shoot to point of aim, make a hole in the intended target big enough to quickly kill it, and dont break my arm in the process. Cast or jacketed doesnt matter as long as they meet those three objectives.

As far as your hardness testing, I have a few questions and opinions. If you harden a bullet, then scrape the surface and it is softer inside, you have case hardened the lead. Same thing can be done with low carbon steels. Im not really up to speed on lead alloys, but seems to me if your bullet, or boolet, as you like to say, is only hardening on the surface, you are either not allowing the lead to heat completely, or are using an alloy that is not heat treatable and temperable.Is their somewhere I can find information on various lead alloys? What temps are you hardening and tempering your bullets, sorry boolits, at? What are you quenching your bullets in? Is lead hardend by quenching in liquid, oil or air?

Seems to me yall are making mountains out of mole hills. Shoot what you prefer and enjoy it for what it is. Different guns shoot different bullets differently. Same for different shooters. Pull your big girl panties on, and quit bickering over dumb stuff. You all are starting to sound ridiculous. Just my humble opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Farrier Matt:Seems to me yall are making mountains out of mole hills. Shoot what you prefer and enjoy it for what it is. Different guns shoot different bullets differently. Same for different shooters. Pull your big girl panties on, and quit bickering over dumb stuff. You all are starting to sound ridiculous. Just my humble opinion.

Sorry don't wear panties.

quote:

us

Posted 30 January 2011 00:15 Hide Post
I like the bullets that shoot to point of aim, make a hole in the intended target big enough to quickly kill it, and dont break my arm in the process. Cast or jacketed doesnt matter as long as they meet those three objectives.

As far as your hardness testing, I have a few questions and opinions. If you harden a bullet, then scrape the surface and it is softer inside, you have case hardened the lead. Same thing can be done with low carbon steels. Im not really up to speed on lead alloys, but seems to me if your bullet, or boolet, as you like to say, is only hardening on the surface, you are either not allowing the lead to heat completely, or are using an alloy that is not heat treatable and temperable.Is their somewhere I can find information on various lead alloys? What temps are you hardening and tempering your bullets, sorry boolits, at? What are you quenching your bullets in? Is lead hardend by quenching in liquid, oil or air?

Seems to me yall are making mountains out of mole hills. Shoot what you prefer and enjoy it for what it is. Different guns shoot different bullets differently. Same for different shooters. Pull your big girl panties on, and quit bickering over dumb stuff. You all are starting to sound ridiculous. Just my humble opinion.

There you are, making sense! Be careful or you will get pounded for years.
Have you not learned that an armor piercing bullet can do it all and the bullet makers are wasting time and money?

You seem to know a lot about casting bullets, could you enlighten me on the different lead alloys and how to harden and temper them? What are some of the more popular alloys of lead and what are their uses?

quote:

As far as your hardness testing, I have a few questions and opinions. If you harden a bullet, then scrape the surface and it is softer inside, you have case hardened the lead. Same thing can be done with low carbon steels. Im not really up to speed on lead alloys, but seems to me if your bullet, or boolet, as you like to say, is only hardening on the surface, you are either not allowing the lead to heat completely, or are using an alloy that is not heat treatable and temperable.Is their somewhere I can find information on various lead alloys? What temps are you hardening and tempering your bullets, sorry boolits, at? What are you quenching your bullets in? Is lead hardend by quenching in liquid, oil or air?

Something that I learned from Veral Smith around 1986 was that water quenched wheel weights make EXCELLENT hard cast bullets. Just drop the bullets in a 5 gallon bucket of water right out of the mold.


Here is an excellent article on heat treating cast bullet

http://www.surplusrifle.com/sh...oyhardness/index.asp

I drop pure wheel wieghts in a 5 gallon bucket of water to "heat trat" them. Water quenching by droppng from the mold into water is covered in this article.

If you truely want to learn about bullet casting, then purchase this book by Veral Smith

JACKETED PERFORMANCE WITH CAST BULLETS

bfrshooter, Cast Performance Bullets, Montana Bullet Works, Beartooth Bullets, etc all sell one alloy and hardness of Hard Cast Bullets these bullets are to be used at any and all revolver velocities for hunting. They do not vary for different hardnesses for different velocities.

quote:

bfrshooter, Cast Performance Bullets, Montana Bullet Works, Beartooth Bullets, etc all sell one alloy and hardness of Hard Cast Bullets these bullets are to be used at any and all revolver velocities for hunting. They do not vary for different hardnesses for different velocities.

Now see, you are finally stating a fact! That is 100% true but you fail to realize that my boolits are harder.
After checking Whitworth's boolits at 30 BHN, I almost dropped my teeth. They are just water dropped WW metal. I can't explain why they are so hard.

quote:

You seem to know a lot about casting bullets, could you enlighten me on the different lead alloys and how to harden and temper them? What are some of the more popular alloys of lead and what are their uses?

I get in trouble all the time for this but softer works better if shot slower like the .45 Colt at 1100 fps or so. The LBT store bought boolits fall into this range or a soft nose with a hard drive band works fine.
Once you get to 1300 to 1400 fps, then very hard and also the store bought LBT boolits work great.
Now go faster like 1600 fps+ and very hard will fail so you need a softer boolit or a soft nose again. Will a store bought LBT work? I don't really know but they might because they are softer then my boolits.
I cast for accuracy first and water drop WW metal but as you have seen, it can vary from 22 to 30 BHN because I have no idea what is in the WW's. Whatever, very hard will work for anything if in the range of 1300 to 1400 fps.
A store bought LBT has a much wider range of velocities because it is not as hard. I would call them the perfect boolit that I can't duplicate with WW metal. Air cooled WW boolits shoot like junk, water dropped are great but too hard and have to be shot in the "slot."
I am still looking for the perfect alloy so 1100 to 1600 fps can use the same stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
What in the hell are we arguing about an
yhow??

I don't know but it sure is fun reading it! !! I think it has something to do with spelling. ???

Since I'm relatively ignorant of the complexities of bullet casting. I will keep my arguing to matters I know something about. Like what a p o junk the 06 is for bear hunting.

You say your bullets are heated, then water quenched. What temp range are they heated to? Ever try salt brine or anything else instead of straight water? Ever try heating them a second time to temper them? Not trying to be a jerk here, just curious and hoping some of you that have so much knowledge on the matter will be willing to share it with others.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

quote:

bfrshooter, Cast Performance Bullets, Montana Bullet Works, Beartooth Bullets, etc all sell one alloy and hardness of Hard Cast Bullets these bullets are to be used at any and all revolver velocities for hunting. They do not vary for different hardnesses for different velocities.

Now see, you are finally stating a fact! That is 100% true but you fail to realize that my boolits are harder.
After checking Whitworth's boolits at 30 BHN, I almost dropped my teeth. They are just water dropped WW metal. I can't explain why they are so hard.

Brinnel, Rockwell and Vickers are all scales with which to test for hardness. Brinnel is th least accurate by good measure. Vickerws is by far the most accurate, but must be performed in a lab. a ture reading of 30 BNH would be a brittle bullet.
Veral told me back in the 80's that a water quenched wheel wieght bullet dropped from the mold into a bucket of water should be from 20 to 22 BNH. Wheel wieghts today are calimed to be softer than those of yesteryear.

I just know that a HARD CAST bullet kills well at all velocities, just as does the Belt Mountain Punch bullets

quote:

Posted 30 January 2011 16:24 Hide Post
You say your bullets are heated, then water quenched. What temp range are they heated to? Ever try salt brine or anything else instead of straight water? Ever try heating them a second time to temper them? Not trying to be a jerk here, just curious and hoping some of you that have so much knowledge on the matter will be willing to share it with others.

I only oven harden a softer alloy like 50-50 WW's and pure to get a hard enough skin for accuracy. These need a gas check too or groups are very poor.
I put them in a wire basket in the oven at 425* for an hour, then dunk in cold water.
Plain WW's or a little harder alloy just get dumped in a bucket of water right out of the mold.
Both of these methods need some time to age and fully harden. They will also grow in diameter a little.
Just use water, nothing else will work, unlike steels.
Now a hard boolit can be stood in water to the crimp groove and a torch played on the noses to soften them but it is hard to do. You need to get them to 400* or so and let them cool slow.
My reason for a hard skin is accuracy and even air cooled WW boolits don't shoot as good and again, need a gas check. Water dropping lets me use a PB boolit. Boolits also get hard almost all the way through with WW metal or a harder alloy. You need antimony, tin and a trace of arsenic to harden a boolit and WW's are good.
For top accuracy in a revolver I add 6.4 oz of tin and 9.6 oz of antimony to 20# of WW metal, then water drop the boolits. Mostly I use just WW's.
The trouble is they are just too hard to cover all velocities and distances for hunting. They are tough and will not break or shatter on bone. I would never go harder, only hard enough to not slump or skid rifling.
I am still working on a better alloy for deer to expand the velocity range without losing accuracy. I have yet to try 75% WW's and 25% pure lead. These will still need a gas check and be hardened but the internal lead will be softer.
Factory bought boolits and loads like LBT, Buffalo Bore, etc, use a good alloy, hard enough for accuracy but right for hunting. I can't afford to buy stuff and am stuck with WW's and pure lead. WW metal can vary all over the place and we don't know what is in them. Do you know how crazy it is to have some boolits come out 30 BHN? Just how do you alloy a strange metal?
You can go the other way and buy Laser Cast boolits. Usually too small in diameter for the gun, so hard the window for hunting is tiny and they will shoot like junk and lead your barrel.
I feel the best is a two part boolit with a small portion of the nose made of pure lead and the rest of the boolit hard for accuracy. I have not perfected the perfect seam between metals yet or to keep things level for balance. I will be working on that this year.
Remember that scratch tests, dropping ingots on the floor for a "ring" test or BHN readings will not tell you a single thing about what the boolit does when hunting.
Elmer had great success with soft boolits of about 16 to 1, lead and tin. But he had severe slump, leading and accuracy problems.

quote:

Originally posted by Farrier Matt:
You say your bullets are heated, then water quenched. What temp range are they heated to? Ever try salt brine or anything else instead of straight water? Ever try heating them a second time to temper them? Not trying to be a jerk here, just curious and hoping some of you that have so much knowledge on the matter will be willing to share it with others.

Your question is answered accurately and in great detail in the link that I posted above.

I will repost the link in case you di not read it

Heat Treating Hard Cast Bullets