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Will it work . can a guy get a heavier recoil spring and go ahead on er ?????????? .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | ||
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I would not even contemplate it in a Glock, Now a 1911 that's another story _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I noticed a 50 GI conversion for the Glock on Gunbroker I think, pricey, more than the Glock costs to start with! | |||
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Go to Glock forum. Use 45 Super stuff in the G 30. That does work, and, it kicks ass. | |||
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gumboot458, I went down the same path, I wanted to convert a G-21 to the 460...no dice. You can go 45 Super but it is on the ragged edge of comming apart in your face. The chamber is unsupported and the polymer frame don't add much confidence. I gave up on the Glock Idea and bought a Springfield 1911 and converted it to a 460 Rowland. I love this cartridge, it is one hole accurate. My 230 grain Winchester JHP's a full grain under max @ 1280 fps hit hard! Up in your neck of the woods it would make a nice side arm. Just make sure whatever 1911 you get has a lowered and flaired ejection port and you will never have an issue. Mine feeds anything i put in it. | |||
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Plus 100. Or get a REAL gun  | |||
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A bit contridictory I see
_____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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The strength in the glock doesn't count on the frame. The fact that glock's have a polymer frame doesn't prevent the caliber conversion. What does prevent the caliber conversion is the type of lockup it uses. The amount of metal that the barrel uses to mate with the slide determines the strength of a pistol. THe 1911 has twice as much bearing surface in the lockup than a glock, which is why it wouldn't make a good choice for the 460 Rowland. Glock's are great pistols, their just isn't as much room for overkill. John | |||
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Big Bore Boar Hunter you are right on about the lockup on the Glock. I like Glocks own three a 21, 30, and my carry is a G36. The other problem I ran into wanting to load .45 Super was the unsupported chamber on the Glock, my comment on " and the polymer frame don't add much confidence." was in the case of a case head seperation with a 25k psi 45 Super load. | |||
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Barrels can be had that fully support the chamber on a Glock pistol, it just limits how well it functions with various types of ammo. As for the polymer with a case head separation, it beats just having a grip panel on a 1911. I have seen a couple of KBs on glocks, and while scary, they haven't produced any injury to the shooter. John | |||
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Ahhh, no. 45 Super, and 460 Rowland are pretty far apart. An aftermarket glock barrel may have a fully supported chamber, but, conventional rifling, being a bit slower, but, allowing the use of lead bullets, and, since it's tighter, you can actually reload your brass, something that the standard Glock 45 ACP chamber creates problems with. The Rowland requires a special chamber, longer brass, and, they recommend a compensator on the 1911, making the gun BIG. It is possible to retime a quality 45 ACP 1911, so that it stays locked longer, and will fire much higher pressure ammo, with no problems. Glock isn't able to do this. | |||
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Nope, I said exactly what I intened to say _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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What I meant was that a whole lot of folks think the G30 is the perfect CCW gun, in particular in Kali, since it carries 10 rounds of 45 ACP, will work with 45 Super with stiffer springs, and weighs something like 33 oz, loaded, 24 oz, unloaded. No 1911 comes close to those specs, and, I've looked. I've also converted a Kimber Ultra Carry II to shoot 45 Super, but, that was on the ragged edge, as far as I'm concerned. Gun was VERY light, any wear and tear on the frame, and, shooting it alot, and, it's going to require either a steel feedramp installed, or other stuff. For a compact, the Glock doesn't come with a stupid big beavertail to stick you in the side, has no external hammer, and, it comes with a horrible trigger, at least compared to a 1911. While I may not find glocks, and their features to my total liking, I'm not closed minded enough to not see the merits of the platform. If you are used to the trigger, shoot Glocks well, and want 10 rounds in a compact package, of 45 Super, I can't think of any gun made that will come in at 33 0z, loaded, with 10 rounds, of 45 ACP, and, may hold together for awhile. The alloy 1911's start getting real finicky when they get that small, and, while mine worked great, I got rid of it in a weak moment, and bought a Detonics Mark Combat master, that, while 37 oz loaded, I can shoot all day or years, without having to worry about stuff wearing out. So, while I might make a few digs at the Glock platform, I do realize it's merits of cheap, lightweight, high capacity, and small package. I believe the forum is the Big Dogs forum. http://www.glocktalk.com/forum...wthread.php?t=197490 Or, rather then hotrodding the 30, one might just go with the 10MM 29, which has been proven to work. If I was going to do a Rowland, or something like that, I would consider either taking a strong, full sized 1911, like the Kimber Custom II, and having the timing changed to shoot 45 Super/Rowland type loads, or perhaps a Bobtail Dan Wesson to start with. Might look something like this:  or, you could setup a Detonics Combatmaster to do the same thing:    230 grains @ 1100 fps, Speer HPs out of the top gun. Same loads, don't know how fast they are out of the Detonics, but, figure they must be close to 1000 fps. | |||
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The REAL gun comment was an inside joke. Had this discussion in writing about 1982 with a famous gunsmith. He said you keep their heads down with the 451 Detonics, and I'll sneak around and shoot them with a REAL gun, meaning one of these:  | |||
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I think if I was going to do a 460 Rowland I would go to a 6 " barrel. IO might do it on a 5" slide... But I just do not see it in a Commander or smaller sized Slide/barrel... I view the 460 Rowland and the 45 Super as more of a Field gun vs a combat gun... The standard 45 ACP has worked well enough for me "in the City", that I see not the need to increase the recoil... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I've shot, maybe, every other day, 2 hours on the police range, for 5 years, with 200 grain speer flying ashtrays, at 1200 fps. You do the math. That said, 451 Detonics is really what the 45 ACP should be, if police could shoot. The results are scary, and awesome... | |||
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GS, have you heard of the Para, Caspain, etc high capacity 1911's? Stiffer springs aren't the answer, only a band aid. The answer is to do away with the piviot link and go to a different type link and mate the barrel to the slide to stay locked longer so that when they unlock the pressure has subsided and slide velocity is reduced to normal levels. Thereason that I would reomend converting a Glock to 460 Rowland is because there is no way to slow down the lock work. The Glocks are the fastest opening semi handgun that I am aware of and is the reason for so many of the so called "Glock Kabooms" _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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GRRRR. Yes. Problem is we can't go over 10 rounds here, but I looked at poly high capacity 45 ACP's. Wilson had one I considered, but,decided against it. 45 Super level loads aren't that much of a stretch, provided you have a fully supported chamber. I used stock 45 ACP brass, with the Detonics recommended loads, which were the same as what the 45 Super is getting these days. For 45 Super level loads, in a Glock, the guys have used aftermarket barrels, and stiffer springs. The key is velocity consistency. If you are getting too much variation, the gun is staying closed long enough, and you need stiffer springs. I agree the 460 Rowland is a whole nother beast, and, I would never try it in a Glock, unless I could figure out someway to take a 29, or the 10mm guns and use their parts. The 10mm operates at about the same pressure as the 460 rowland, and they hold up well. When all is said and done, what's wrong with just buying a 29? Slightly smaller hole, but, with Double Tap ammo, it's a more economical package, and, it's designed from the ground up for a high pressure round. jwp475, ever played around with a 29? I'm wondering if the chambers are fully supported, and, if they are tighter then the 30 I shot. Looking at the brass afterwards, the 30 had a really sloppy combat chamber. I agree changing the timing is an excellent idea, and the way to go. My Kimber Custom II has had that done on it, and, apparently the timing on the Detonics Combatmaster is pretty much done already for heavy loads. | |||
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Fully suported chamber are not the issue, tat part of thecase is fine. The problem with the Glock is the lock up can not be slowed, and the case can blow out when the lock work opens and the case is blow out of he chamber with the pressure stil high and of course the slide velocity is to higher as well. Alo stiffer sring i a band aid and does not address ad olve the actual problem. This fact you seem to continualy ignore Again Glocks arenot a good platform to convert to 460 Rowland,but bemy guest if you wish _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I had to use a Glock for several years, it served me well... However there have been some parts breakage with the 40 cal Glocks, usually the locking iece in the frame. I wouold not want to do a 460 R on a Glock... Also, even on a 1911, with a 460R, for long life, a Comp is a good idea... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Plus one... | |||
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Glock kabooms are primarily caused by unsupported chambers, the case head lets go. The fix has been a barrel swap. Having shot too many glocks to count, the fired cases between those with aftermarket bbls and those with glock bbls tell the story. Most of the kabooms leave the case in the chamber, that usually indicates rupture prior to chamber unlocking. Most 1911's are in 45 auto, which has much less slide speed than a 40 cal anything. Having shot 40 cal 1911's, I will tell you that going back to a 45 makes you think something is wrong with the timing. 40's are, by nature, more likely to open early compared to a 45. John | |||
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Oh, and probably the best person to consult on 460 rowland woul be Clarks gunsmithing. John | |||
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gain Glock Kabooms are because the action canopen before the presuure is down and not because of the chamber. Jack has proven that in court several times. Believe it or not makes me no difference. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I think you are both right.  Stretched cases, caused by oversized chambers, after being reloaded, are more likely to either blow, or not allow the gun to go fully into battery. I suspect it is possible to pull the trigger on a glock without the case being completely seated in the chamber. Don't know. Also, the recoil springs wearing out, and the gun coming open prior to the pressure going down is supported by the comments at the Glock 30 forum. The guys use a chronograph to determine if the gun is staying locked long enough for using 45 Super. If you have a wide variation in velocity with the same batch of ammo, it's time for new springs. I would be very reluctant to use a stock barrel Glock with 45 Super, since the brass will be under considerably more pressure, and, might stretch, and blow in the area that is not properly supported. Also, since 45 Super brass isn't cheap, you would want to reload, and, one shot in a big chamber and the brass is useless. | |||
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GS, There have been instances where failure to lock in battery has caused issues with Glock 40 cal guns, of these, most can be traced to a lack of cleaning and debris buildup within the pistol. Opening up early would be a fault with spring or too slow of a powder. Springs are rated for 20k-25k rounds, but most will extend way beyond that. Historically, most KBs were Glock 22 and 23's using reloaded ammo in stock bbls. Usually the cartridge was still in the chamber, with slide forward, and the magazine blown out or the grip frame cracked. The brass on the cartridge is blown out in the 6 o'clock position, directly over the unsupported area of the chamber. Another problem that occurs of all pistols in 40 cal is bullets being pushed rearward in the case reducing combustion area and greatly increasing pressures above SAAMI limits. For this reason ammo mfg's are recommending limiting how many times an individual cartridge is chambered. The failure rates between Glocks and other designs of pistols are statistically the same when factory ammo is being used. HK USP's, brownings, colts, and many others have had their shares of mishaps as well. But none of this really has to do with why glocks are unsuitable for the 460 Rowland. The statement that a lockup on a blowback/ tilt barrel pistol can't be slowed is false. Increasing the spring rate will slow the slide leaving it locked for a longer duration. In a conversion, the angle of the unlocking ramp could be changed changing when the action unlocks as the slide moves rearward. The 460 rowland is about 2,500 PSI over the 40 S&W or 10mm Auto cartridge, glocks can't survive long with that pressure loading. As for things being true because they were proved in court, I am a bit dubious on that one. I remember when people were proved to be witches in court and thus burned alive, proof is in the science, not in the minds of judges or juries. john | |||
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First, heavier springs DO NOT increase lock time, they only slow side velocity. The Glocks have cam cuts on the bottom of the barrel and corosponding cams in the frame. The barrel and slide move back wards only .60 thousands before the barrel startsdownwardf and opening begins. This locking system is extremely difficult to slow the opening down because of the lack of enough area to cut farther back. The next problem is that as the case diameter increases so does thecase had thrust.A 40 thousand PSI load in a 9mm has dramaticaly less case head thrust than does a 45 cal at 30 thousnd PSI The Glock is simply not the best platform to build a 460 Rowland on. The term "fully supported chamber" is an incorrect term. There is no such thing as a "fully supported chaber in a semi auto pistol. Yes some barrel will suport more case than other barrels, but none of them fully support a case. This can easily be seen by taken the barrel out of the gun and drop a roun into the barrel chamber and it is readily apparrent _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I do not believe there are any official numbers on which design of semi auto that has th most KaBooms, but I do know that if one Google Glock KaBooms you'll find enough reading to keep you busy for some time. Google 1991 KaBooms and one will not find much if any. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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My thoughts on the matter, I would not do a 460 R on a Glock... Also I would not want one on a 1911 without at least a 5" barrel with a Comp. A standard sized 1911 or smaller, to me is kinda like a Scandoum framed S&W 44 Mag... Just too much of a good thing. If you shoot the gun a lot, you will beat it to death... And the recoil really slowes down follow up shots. No my favorite handgun is a 1911... My favorite handgun cartridge is the 44 Mag, so a 1911 with 44 Mag power.... Well without a good set up including a Comp, it is just not in the cards. Also I have shaot all the BIG MAGNUM semiautos, and while OK for a Hunting gun, they are too big for a "carry gun". DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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1- Point is it does not slow opening of the lock-up nearly enough 2- As I stated it is very difficult to do correctly and some guns may not be able to do with out cutting into areas that should not be cut 3- MY explanation is correct 4- As I said some barrels will reduce case bulging over a stock barrel and its slopy cut chamber. Still the barrels do not fully support the case, not possiable _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Back in the Day, before the 45 Super, and the 460R Some of us hot rodded the 1911 in 45 ACP. We used Accurized Colts with 26 lb recoil srings. This was before custom barrels were avialable, the Pistolsmith would weld up the lugs, hood and feet of a standard Colt 45 ACP bbl, squeezing the slide to frame fit and fitting a tight bushing.... There were no recoil reducing Coms in those days... If I wanted a 460 R today, I would contact Clark Gunsmithing in LA. A cheaper simpler solution, [and this is from a 1911 Freek] is to get a 4" S&W 44 Mag, and a Pocket full of Speed Loaders... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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At least you didn't say desert eagle! The 460 Rowland is pretty cool, but I question an actual application. Things you need to shoot at fast and furious are either two legged and require a lot less, or will stomp you into the 18th century and require a lot more. john | |||
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John I agree with you. For a Peole combat gun the 1911 is very hard to beat. A large bore revolver with controlable loads, wikth a person that is roficient with speed loaders will work as well. And for field use against DG, anything more than the recoil of a full power 44 Mag load is again just too much, IMHO. Anything that you cannot shoot with one hand from an awkard position, has just too much recoil IMHO. For hunting BIg BIG game I like my FA 475 Linebaugh... But, again IMHO, with full power loads, it is just too much for Personal Protection. I can say this, a 4" S&W 44 Mag, with Garret 44 Mag ammo will shoot to the brain, on ANY animal... Including cape buff and elephants. I seen it with my own eyes, and with my own 44 Mag... And I can do it with one hand... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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John Also I do not want any semiauto for animal protection in the field. The problem is, I might not know I have an "animal problem" until I have been knocked down... Semiautos tend not to function when the slide "hits stuff, or gets hair caught up in the works". [Same "rules" apply to Hostage Rescue, or shooting bad guys when in CONTACT]. With a revolver, there is a much greater chance of getting off multiple rounds, in any kind of "contact" scenario.... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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The gun type does not make a defense weapon, except for the fact that if you can get the bullet going the right speed, you can use it. If I told you I had a 45 Colt with a 265 grain bullet, going 1000 fps, with a WFN hard cast configuration, 475jwp would say I had an EXCELLENT both hunting, and, defense round, provided I'm not in a city. http://glocktalk.com/forums/sh...4766820#post14766820 You CAN get a Glock to do that, but not with the Rowland. Use 45 Super, or, 45 ACP with a custom barrel, and, good brass. | |||
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GS As to gun type I would disagree.... Now remember, I am a BIg bore kind of guy... If I only had 6 bullets a Colt Single Action in 45 Colt would be as good as any to me... However if I had 50 bullets, then a 9mm Glock with 3 magazines would be a better choice... [The perfect choice for me would be a 1911, in 45 ACP with 50 rounds of ammo, in magazines]. When it comes to a protection gun, against man and/or beast, it is best to consider the TOTALITY of the situation. Also Sad to say, many people must follow beaucratic rules... There have been MANY times in my job, that I carried BOTH revolvers, and semiautomatics, on the same day at the same time... Different needs for different deeds. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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NE 450 N2: I'm SURE you've had far more experience then I with such situations. In our state, a permit in my county has been about 99.99999% impossible, unless you bribed the last county Police Chief. However, he got caught taking bribes, by having his own 'possee', that made massive campaign contributions, and were rewarded with permits. Since that, they just don't issue permits, unless you own a gun store, are a judge, or retired LEO. CCW is done at your own risk, and, has to be deep covered, leaving revolvers, except for maybe scandiums out. That said, the appeal of a flat version of the 45 Colt, reloadable, semi-auto, is sort of what I've always wanted. Fackler has said the .40 caliber old swiss round, 300 grains @ 1350 fps, soft lead bullet, was more effective then the current .223 round. Also, the 45 Colt was what the 45 ACP was trying to equal, in a smaller round. With hard cast bullets, those 265 grain bullets, both in .44 and .45 have an excellent reputation for putting a stop to things, man or beast. I will say the appeal of 265's at 1200 fps makes me think about doing a 1911 Rowland. Linebaugh used that round a LOT in the early days in Cody, and wrote that that combination would take everything in the 48, and was pretty near ideal. The 45 Super, with cast bullets, 265 at 1000 fps, or 230 HP's at 1100, or even 200 grains at 1200 fps, is close, as close as I can get, and still have a weapon that conceals well. I would NEVER do a Rowland on a Glock, and, the guys doing 45 Super on the G30's better change springs, real often. If I wanted a powerful glock, I'd just get the G29. It's designed for high pressure. Anyone know what they do to the 29, besides a heavier slide, to make it take the pressure of the 10MM? Change the timing? I've always wondered about the Detonics line of guns, when they made the .451 Detonics. I know they used stiffer springs, but, I think the guns were designed from the start with longer lock time then a normal 1911. My favorite round is 45 ACP, with either 200 grain HP's at 1200 fps, or, the 230's at 1100 fps. Is that 'enough' for social work? | |||
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The 45 AC is a proven effective combat round which the FBI has gone back to as have the LAPD special units as well as the LA. State Police. A 45 Super on a 1911 is an easy conversion and when lock time is lenghten sufficiently there is no need for stiffer spring and 45 ACP hardball will still function in the weapon. My idea of a perfect 45 for self defence use is a high capacity frame weapon. 14 plus 1 capability is a huge plus. The 40 S&W in a high capacity 1911 holds 19 plus one and the extra 5 rounds is a very attractive feature. There is a lot to like about not having to reload in the middle of a fire fight IMHO _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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GS Any 45 ACP round over the 230gr at 830fps, or a 185 at 950fps is just icing on the cake.  I think the 3 best guns you can carry if you do not want anybody to know you are carrying are a 5 shot S&W revolver, or a Colt LW Commander or Officers Model. The "little" semiautos have too many reliability issues for me. Although there were times I did carry guns as small as a Browning 25ACP, FA 22LR, and even the Hi Standard 22 Mag Derringer... I had a Browning 380 [1910 model I think it was called] that was a good shooter, but I could carry a LW Commander nearly as stealthy. I sympathise with your CHL situation... What we need is a National Concealed Carry Law... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Handgun Hunting Glock 30 in 460 Rowland ?
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