Evening gents.

Been hunting instead of typing...

I shot this 8'7" 165# tom yesterday after about a mile chase.


Used a Bisley Blackhawk by John L.


400 grain (actually 409) LBT style bullet by Montana Bullet Works at 1200 FPS with H-110.
Found the slug (!) under the hide on the off shoulder


I was sure that the slug would have perforated the lion, instead of stopping under the hide. Momentum and all.

I'm kinda thinking a Keith style bullet would have punched right through.

And is it a bullet failure if the gas check comes off?

Comments?

First off, congrats on a good looking lion. Like you, I would have expected the bullet to completely penetrate. What was the shot presentation that you took on it? Loosing the gas check is not a failure in my opinion.

How far did the cat go after you shot it?

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
First off, congrats on a good looking lion. Like you, I would have expected the bullet to completely penetrate. What was the shot presentation that you took on it? Loosing the gas check is not a failure in my opinion.

How far did the cat go after you shot it?

I shot him broadside through the right shoulder, angled to take both shoulders. I was about 12-15 yards away.

He went rigid and flipped backwards out of the tree. Dog man said he had NEVER seen a lion killed so fast. Even with rifles.

He went 20 feet.

Straight down.

Anybody with a calculator have an idea of the energy of this load?

.512 diameter x 409 grains x 1200fps?

Energy is meaningless, so I wouldn't worry any about it.

I'm surprised the bullet stopped on a broadside, but you got the cat.

Very awesome cat. Kind of giving me an itch for an SA revolver.

john113wyo,

Great looking lion, congratulations and good shooting. That's a beautiful revolver you have there as well! Like has already been mentioned, I am surprised that the bullet didn't exit but I don't get too hung up on that kind of thing. My main objective is to kill things quickly and efficiently and it sounds like your load did just that.

Congratulations again and thanks for sharing your experience with us!

Excellent! Nice Tom. Thanks for posting. I'm too old, fat and worn out to hunt lions any more, but I sure loved (love?) it.

Nice leather too! Like the others, I'm amazed the bullet stopped inside the animal.

John, congrats on a great lion. I too am surprized on the level of penetration. Do you mind if I ask just how cold it was and the type of primer used ?

quote:

Originally posted by LeonardC:
Nice leather too! Like the others, I'm amazed the bullet stopped inside the animal.

Yes sir, El Paso Saddlery makes some beautiful hand carved floral leather.

quote:

Originally posted by kaboom:
John, congrats on a great lion. I too am surprized on the level of penitration. Do you mind if I ask just how cold it was and the type of primer used ?

I think it was around 30 degrees at 1135 am.
Primer was WIN Large Pistol.

quote:

Originally posted by john113wyo:

quote:

Originally posted by kaboom:
John, congrats on a great lion. I too am surprized on the level of penitration. Do you mind if I ask just how cold it was and the type of primer used ?

I think it was around 30 degrees at 1135 am.
Primer was WIN Large Pistol.

I know where this might be heading. I'll say it. Could the temps, which are not that cold, have caused a low pressure/velocity load with the H110?

Alan

Now that is one heck-of-a-cat!! Wow, he's a big boy! That is a beautiful revolver. That bullet should have punched through, but it obviously did the job.

quote:

Originally posted by GSSP:

quote:

Originally posted by john113wyo:

quote:

Originally posted by kaboom:
John, congrats on a great lion. I too am surprized on the level of penitration. Do you mind if I ask just how cold it was and the type of primer used ?

I think it was around 30 degrees at 1135 am.
Primer was WIN Large Pistol.

I know where this might be heading. I'll say it. Could the temps, which are not that cold, have caused a low pressure/velocity load with the H110?

Alan

Alan,

I've shot those heavy bullets through wet newsprint down into the 825 fps velocity range and still get feet of penetration. Whatever the reason, it happened. That must have been a tough cat.

I found the energy calculator at handloads.com.
1307 energy
70 momentum
35 Taylor KO

.44/240 rates a Taylor KO of 30

I've shot my FA Casull at 30 degrees with H110/265 gas-checked
Cast Performance @ 1680 fps. No temperature issue there.

No doubt that this cat was heavily muscled and dense.
It takes lots of power to hook an elk, deer or sheep and hang on.

Maybe meplat size slowed it down quicker vs s Keith style?

I ALMOST carried my 5.5" Bisley Flattop. 44 Special On Saturday. Glad I went with the. 500. It was spectacular!

In the final analysis, the critter is in the freezer.

John, I can assure you that a "Keith-style" bullet has nothing more to offer a bullet (like the one you used) with a larger meplat from a terminal standpoint. Personally I would throw out any energy figures as they are a poor way to measure lethality.

I hunt with my .500 Linebaugh at even lower velocities and the paper ballistics make it look pretty anemic, but I assure you it is not in the least.

Congratulations on the fantastic cat!

Awesome lion, congratulations. Maybe we don't have enough info after only one kill to try and analyze it, but the 600 nitro express was not popular for elephant due to lack of penetration.

I am also surprised that the bullet did not penetrate and exit. Could it be a sectional density issue i.e a 400 grain bullet is a little short for a 50 caliber?
Whitorth: I am not jerking your chain, this is a serious question. Knowing your preference for large bores, what is your explanation for the lack of penetration?

I don't know, really. It is a bit light for caliber, but it should have produced two holes. Sometimes these things happen, and it may just be an anomaly. I shoot 500s and 525s out of mine and they exit everything even at really subdued velocities. May just be a poor nose profile. I have some 435 grainers that don't penetrate well even though they look like they should. Where's jwp475? He used that 435 grain bullet on a bison once and they penetrated poorly and it wasn't a function of bullet weight or velocity, but a poor nose profile.

Hi John,
I was curios if you had a chance to cronograph this ammo before the hunt and if so, did you see any significant shot to shot velocity variation ?

Best

every shot is an event unto itself. the cat died and quickly. if you've ever seen a video of the offside hide expanding nearly a foot like a balloon and holding a bullet on that side it's a sight to see in slow mo photography. hard to say what happened and i'd make no judgement about bullet, load, or anything until more shots with that bullet were taken.

interestingly enough, if it were a smaller caliber many here would be talking about why he needs a bigger caliber, but we're not. perhaps wet paper just doesn't tell us what we need ta know all the time.

1. stuff happens

2. the lion's dead

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:interestingly enough, if it were a smaller caliber many here would be talking about why he needs a bigger caliber, but we're not. perhaps wet paper just doesn't tell us what we need ta know all the time.

Not necessarily. It's a big cat, but it's only 165-lb animal. Still no replacement for placement.

quote:

Originally posted by kenoneill:
1. stuff happens

2. the lion's dead

Nicely summed up!

Congrats on your Big cat and good shooting also.

John well done that is a nice cat.

Now a few thoughts on the penetration "issue".

It might surprise some how dense the muscles on a bear or a cat can be.

I shot an African Lion with my 450/400 double rifle, my last shot being a "coup de gras" at point blank, ie two foot range, from the back, iknto the chest with a 400gr Woodleigh Soft.

All of the bullets stayed inside the cat, all mushroomed great.
Also the hide is usually what "catches" the bullet.

It is possible that a Keith SWC might have hit the hide, pushing the hide out, and the sharp edge of the shank of the bullet cutting the hide and thus getting a pass through.

This is one reason why some rifle bullets, like say a Barnes, Winchester Fail Safe, or the Hornady Mono Flex with its sharper edges after expansion, give complete penetration when a bulley that expands and has a smooth lead "head" on it after expansion gets caught by the hide.

Also in the case of a Keith SWC, its smaller meplat might have allowed it to have a little higher velocity as it passed through the animal, which again with its sharp edge would have allowed it to give complete penetratiom.

Also John, were you able to tell if the bullet was still "point on" against the hide or had it tumbled sideways or backwards toward the end of its penetration?

I had an "LBT" style 430 cast give very poor penetration at 1350 FPS. The bullet was NOT AN LBT BULLET FROM VERAL SMITH OWNER OF LBT.

A true LBT bullet has been thoroughly tested by Veral and will definitely penetrate well. Nose length and shape play a major role in regards to penetration and wound channel.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Also John, were you able to tell if the bullet was still "point on" against the hide or had it tumbled sideways or backwards toward the end of its penetration?

Tony,

No I didn't notice. We flipped him over onto his back , peeled the hide down and it apparently came loose with the hide. See the distance between the shoulder exit and where it's laying now in the photo. Gravity...


And I don't know if Dave Jennings casts TRUE LBT bullets from LBT moulds or not.

Maybe someone here knows...
Where's BFR shooter?


One of my rancher buddies who knows flesh on critters mentioned how gaunt the cat is.
With the frame on him, the rancher felt the cat would easily weight 25-30 pounds more in good condition.
He didn't have hardly any fat on him when we skinned him out. He'd been fighting a LOT.


PS: MS Hitman: Like you, I didn't consider the gas check coming off a failure.
The lion is D-E-A-D.
Some guys would argue anything on the internet, I threw out a little bait. Didn't get much response. Kinda like the Keith VS LBT thing.
Having some fun. Please forgive me. (grin)



Hey, Whitworth, whose bullets are you using that cast 500 and 525 grains?

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
Congrats on your Big cat and good shooting also.

Thanks OLBIKER.

quote:

Originally posted by kaboom:
Hi John,
I was curios if you had a chance to cronograph this ammo before the hunt and if so, did you see any significant shot to shot velocity variation ?

Best

kaboom,

No, I haven't chrono'd the load, but I'll take it on faith as the guy who gave to me, John Linebaugh, has.

I called him last Saturday night about the failure to PERFORATE the cat. He was surprised too, but mentioned that Elmer Keith had shot some pretty big Lions in Africa with big doubles and had the same thing happen. I know we probably can't/shouldn't compare <200 pound cats to >400 pounders, but maybe there's something there.

Like NE450No2 said, bear and lions are DENSE.

To all who commented on a great lion, thanks!,
I just showed up at the tree. Surprised to see what we had caught. Lucky is all...

I'll try for another after January 1. See if I can share it with you guys.

Hope you guys have a great holiday season.

whatever the case with the boolit
a fine example of feline failure
nice cat

beautiful cat john!!
them wyoming cats are tuff
lucky the bullet didn't bounce off

quote:

Originally posted by kenoneill:
1. stuff happens

2. the lion's dead

Exactly stuff happens.... I seen some weird results over the years and as the thread illustrates we will continue to see such things happen.

Big Cat

One good thing that came from this experiment in terminal ballistics is that I've been mighty thankful that I didn't use my intended firearm and load for this hunt.

Several years ago, after packing lever guns up/down mountains on puma hunts, I pondered a better/easier packing solution.

I thought the 200 Grain Speer Gold Dot in .44 mag over H-110 in a T/C Contender Super 14 in an Uncle Mikes shoulder rig would be just the ticket for lung shooting a big ol' tom out of a tree. The jacket/core bonding appealed to me. The maidens, High Velocity and Energy Transfer, were singing their Siren song. (Apologies in advance to Whitworth and MS Hitman for my errant thought on considering energy figures.I must been a hillbilly then Thanks for the education.)

Sighted dead-on at 25 yards with a Leupold 2x EER scope, shot placement would be pretty easy. Getting the correct angle for a heart shot or both lungs would be the hard part. The load and gun combination would cut one ragged hole in a paper target for five shots. Now I see the 240 grainer would have been a better choice.


Having seen first-hand how dense and tough a mature lion is I'm glad I took the Linebaugh.
The .44 load could have been an almighty tragedy. Penetration might have been 6" or less.

Has anyone here tried the 200 grain Gold Dot .44 on soft critters? I've got several loaded rounds left. Results?


Hey Whitworth,
I'll ask again if you don't mind answering. Whose 500 and 525 grain bullets are you using in your Linebaugh?

John, to answer your question, I've shot the Speer 200 gr. Magnum hollow point driven by 26 and 27 gr. of 296 from a 10" Contender and killed a couple of large bucks and a hog with it. It was devastating and exhibited full penetration.
That bullet is somewhat different than the Gold Dot, which hadn't been invented yet, at the time of those hunts.

I will defer to Bob Hagel who has shot several different Mountain Lions out of a tree.

He recomends a heavy for calibre lead SWC.

He shot some with a 45 AR and some with a heavy loaded 44 Special...

As always penetration seemed to be the key...

I think your answer lies in the statement that the cat was underweight. Any underweight animal is going to have a lot of excess skin. Very likely the skin had lots of stretch and absorbed the bullet energy preventing the exit.