I was looking at Rim Rock bullets on line . I was wondering if the bhn 22 bullets would be prone to shattering if they hit a bone . And if the bhn 15 bullets would be too soft and just mush out. ?
Any insights welcome.
My one experience of cast bullets shattering was from hitting a bull moose in the high forehead with a 360 gr Oregon Trail "Silver Bullet" from my 7 1/2" Freedom Arms Model 83 Field Grade 454. The bullet desintegrated. It smashed the bone but didnt penetrate.
Thanks ,
Glen.

I would be shooting with my 480 Ruger , and 10 mm . But, I'm getting a friend set up with his Redhawk in 44 mag also.
Most of the velocities would be around 1200 fps. mv.

I cast bullets and shoot them, but I'm curious as to why you would want to take a chance shooting moose with them when jacketed are far superior. You can read by candlelight, but nowadays, why?

I dont know anywhere I can get 420 gr .475 bullets other than cast. Same with 220 gr 10 mm bullets or 340 gr 44 bullets.
I did go to the 320 gr Belt Mt. PUNCH bullets in the 454. But, I haven't had a 454in several years . And dont really plan on getting another.

It's easy to overdrive a cast bullet with a .454. They work best with lower impact velocities that won't compromise the nose of the bullet. I don't consider 22 bhn to be too hard or necessarily brittle. At 1,200 fps they should work fine. I killed my moose with my .500 Linebaugh slinging 5oos at about 1,200 fps at the muzzle. Very effective terminally speaking.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
I cast bullets and shoot them, but I'm curious as to why you would want to take a chance shooting moose with them when jacketed are far superior. You can read by candlelight, but nowadays, why?

Far superior? How do you figure? The only two expanding bullets I have any use for are the Swift A-frame and the Barnes XPB. Nothing wrong with a good cast bullet on moose.

Whitworth:

He didn't say anything about expanding bullets, he just said "jacketed". There are some nice FMJ flatpoints or solids.

Otherwise I believe that good cast bullets will be as good as jacketed if velocity is reasonable. Jacketed bullets can be driven much faster of course.

Jiri

I did some resesrch and found that Belt Mt Punch bullets are available in 380 gr .475" . But, they are $2.50. A piece. If I was on the coast where I was dealing with lots of brown bear up close then I would probably spring for some. But , tho I could bump into a grizzly here in the Interior. Its not something I'm overly concerned about. And, I have had to use cast on brown bear, and they worked. I didnt get bit.

How about the 15 or 18 bhn bullets ? Would they hold up do u think ?

quote:

Originally posted by Jiri:
Whitworth:

He didn't say anything about expanding bullets, he just said "jacketed". There are some nice FMJ flatpoints or solids.

Otherwise I believe that good cast bullets will be as good as jacketed if velocity is reasonable. Jacketed bullets can be driven much faster of course.

Jiri

Not really. There is the Barnes Buster and it has a really and unfortunately small meplat. There are some okay monometal solids from Lehigh and CEB (I've used the CEB solids on water buffalo), but again the meplats are on the small side. That leaves my favorite, the Punch bullets, but that isn't really a jacketed bullet and they are pretty expensive as pointed out.

I'm still waiting for the explanation as to why jacketed bullets are "far superior" to cast bullets. Sounds like someone who has yet to get a clue, but I'm listening.

Cold Trigger Finger:

This is comparison of Ares HC (coated) bullet and Speer TMJ fired into hard polyamide/nylon block. Caliber .460 Rowland.

HC bullet is 250 gr, 1250 fps, approx. 92% lead, 6% antimony, 2% tin. BHN about 16
Speer TMJ is 185 gr, 1545 fps

You can see how good it holds together. I will not be afraid to hunt anything with that tough bullet. Have the same 400gr for .500 S&W. Can test it the same way.



Jiri

Jiri, both of those bullets have completely lost their nose shape thereby hindering penetration. How hard is the media you shot them into? I also prefer a significantly larger meplat as that is what will ultimately decide how big the wound channel will be. It's imperative that a solid flat-nosed bullet maintains its nose profile to ensure deep straight line penetration.

These two cast bullets (22 BHN) made it through two shoulders of a 2,000 lb water buffalo. As you can see, they maintained their shape pretty well, although one's nose is pretty chewed up. Both were found poking through the skin of the offside shoulder. There was a third, but it exited all the way.





If they get badly mangled, I consider them a failure, but that's just me.

Whitworth:

Speer TMJ is just for comparison purposes.

Media is block of PA6 nylon, industrial plastics used for making gears or whatever. It is much more resistant to bullets than wood. It is nice material to test bullets if they hold together.


Jiri

quote:

Media is block of PA6 nylon, industrial plastics used for making gears or whatever. It is much more resistant to bullets than wood. It is nice material to test bullets if they hold together.

I guess if one is planning on hunting nylon.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Jiri, both of those bullets have completely lost their nose shape thereby hindering penetration. How hard is the media you shot them into? I also prefer a significantly larger meplat as that is what will ultimately decide how big the wound channel will be. It's imperative that a solid flat-nosed bullet maintains its nose profile to ensure deep straight line penetration.

These two cast bullets (22 BHN) made it through two shoulders of a 2,000 lb water buffalo. As you can see, they maintained their shape pretty well, although one's nose is pretty chewed up. Both were found poking through the skin of the offside shoulder. There was a third, but it exited all the way.





If they get badly mangled, I consider them a failure, but that's just me.

What velocity and what weight/caliber/range to target were these . That looks like great preformance! Rim Rock has 380 gr and 440 gr 475 bullets with a bhn of 22 and I can push them to around 1200 fps from my SRH 7 1/2" it has a meplat of .39" for the 440 gr.

Those loads run right at 1,200 fps from my 6 1/2-inch Bisley (.454 Super Blackhawk). The bullet weighs 405 grains and I think I was around 30 yards away from the target with the first shot. Garrett's bullets are super tough -- probably the best alloy I've experienced from a commercial manufacturer. Garrett claims 25 BHN (I thought they were 22), and I wouldn't doubt it but they are not brittle in the least in my experience. This is a picture of the water buffalo.

Awesome ! He's horned almost like a Guar . Nice bull! Really nice. Where was the hunt ?

Jiri; the polimer coated bullet looks good . I can push the 220 gr 10 mm cast bullet around 1200 fps from my Glock . G20 .
The 185 gr looks like it would make a good anti personell round at that speed. Probably good for similar weight 4 footed game as well.

In the past I ran 410 gr Buffalo Bore ammo in my 480s for bear protection. But, I do think the 440 gr would work better as I can get similar speed, more weight and a wider meplat.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Media is block of PA6 nylon, industrial plastics used for making gears or whatever. It is much more resistant to bullets than wood. It is nice material to test bullets if they hold together.

I guess if one is planning on hunting nylon.

If they will hold in nylon, they will hold in any bone, bull skull or whatever.

Jiri

quote:

If they will hold in nylon, they will hold in any bone, bull skull or whatever.

Bullets react differently when shot into hard media then into flesh.

Hard media is not a good testing example for shooting live flesh.

Use if you want but in the field you might find the results totally different.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

If they will hold in nylon, they will hold in any bone, bull skull or whatever.

Bullets react differently when shot into hard media then into flesh.

Hard media is not a good testing example for shooting live flesh.

Use if you want but in the field you might find the results totally different.

Exactly. All that tells you is that the media is too hard.

To some extent. I shoot alot of firewood as bullet testing media. Been doing it for 30 years or so. In my testing , if a bullet is going to crap out and not maintain integrity in a block of spruce, hemlock,cedar or poplar. Then its not going to penetrate very well in a brown bear or moose. And it may come unglued even in a deer and make a big mess.

Whitworth+p dog shooter

So you are trying to tell me that if bullet didn't disintegrated in hard media, it can still disintegrates in softer media? Really?

Jiri

What I am are telling you it is not a one on one comparison.

Many times jhps don't expand in hard media but expand in flesh.

Live flesh and bones are totally different then even dead flesh and bones.

There are just to many factors that make shooting animals different then any test media.

The closest to live flesh is 10% ballistic gelatin even then it is not perfect.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
What I am are telling you it is not a one on one comparison.

Many times jhps don't expand in hard media but expand in flesh.

Live flesh and bones are totally different then even dead flesh and bones.

There are just to many factors that make shooting animals different then any test media.

The closest to live flesh is 10% ballistic gelatin even then it is not perfect.

To add to this, wet pack is not far off from flesh as well, even through it is a bit tougher. I would guess that many good bullets wouldn't hold up to nylon or hardwood. Those media are too tough and won't tell you what it will do in flesh. It is not a direct comparison as p dog pointed out.

I agree that its not perfect. But, its not bad either. Gitta have a backstop at the house . A full woodshed makes a good bullet trap. All our wood soecies up here are soft compared to down soyth hardwoods.

Having a lot of fire wood available every year mostly red oak.

I shot a lot of bullets into for testing it was fun and I had to split it any way for the stove.

What did I learn well I wanted to carry a 2 foot oak tree with me in my cruiser if I needed something to hide behind. Oak stops handgun bullets like crazy.

quote:

To add to this, wet pack is not far off from flesh as well, even through it is a bit tougher

The trouble with wet pack is getting it consistently wet all the way through. Dry hard spots tend to screw with the results.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
What I am are telling you it is not a one on one comparison.

Many times jhps don't expand in hard media but expand in flesh.

Live flesh and bones are totally different then even dead flesh and bones.

There are just to many factors that make shooting animals different then any test media.

The closest to live flesh is 10% ballistic gelatin even then it is not perfect.

This is obvious of course.

We are talking here about flat point cast bullets. Not any JHP or cast bullets with cavity or whatever. I didn't say that nylon will simulate flash. Only what I said is:

"If they will hold in nylon, they will hold in any bone, bull skull or whatever."

Also at the beginning, Cold Trigger Finger asked: "And if the bhn 15 bullets would be too soft and just mush out. ?"

To answer that, I posted picture of ~16 BHN bullet made out of "hard ball" alloy fired into hard plastics demonstrating that it will absolutely hold together at reasonable velocity.

That is all. It is perfectly clear to anybody here that "hard media" will never simulate terminal ballistics of the bullet in the game.

When testing JHP, I use water jugs too. It will simulate "wet part" pretty well. Here I know that it is not perfect too, but if it will hold in hard media and water too, it says something.

Cold Trigger Finger:

BTW this is 200 gr Sierra FPJ Match fired into water jug at about 1490 fps. Could be nice antipersonnel load too:



P.S.: I am not going to offend anyone here. I just like things clear :-)

Jiri

The jhp observation was just to show that bullets shot into hard material do not be preform the same as in flesh.

Water is the next best medium I have shot hundreds of cast bullets into wet pack, water, wood and game.

I never had one break apart I cast them using wheel weights and some miscellaneous lead thrown in. Then dropped out of the mold into a five gallon bucket of water.

I don't know exactly how hard they are but they shoot through critters without trouble.

From 124gr 9mms to 460gr 458s

But then I don't push my bullets real fast max around 1600fps.

I can tell you a 315gr 44 at 1300fps well go through 4 feet of bear and a 460gr 458 at 1450 well go back to front of a 200lb hog

Shot a 315gr in one side out the other side 250lb black bear at 900fps.

Acquired a 460 S@W last fall the fellow I brought if from had a load worked up with a 300gr cast at 1500fps.

Very accurate easy to handle and it well kill anything I shoot with it.

If I decide I need more power I well just use a rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

To add to this, wet pack is not far off from flesh as well, even through it is a bit tougher

The trouble with wet pack is getting it consistently wet all the way through. Dry hard spots tend to screw with the results.

I've never had trouble with wetpack. You just have to do it right. I soak it in trash bags for 24 hours and it is very consistent.

I used to shoot into butt ends of firewood until they started coming right back at me.

P dog; theres alot of difference between red oak and spruce or poplar. ;-)

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
I used to shoot into butt ends of firewood until they started coming right back at me.

OB ; I've heard of that happening with some 9 mm bullets shooting bowling pins . And John Linebaugh told me that he witnessed a 225gr iirc .452 XPB bouncing out of some testing media and hitting the shooter in the foot. The bullet was fully expanded. I dont remember what the testing media was . But he warned me not to try it. I took his word for it.

Jiri; I fully agree . @ near 1500 fps that bullet would be great at anti personell.

quote:

P dog; theres alot of difference between red oak and spruce or poplar. ;-)

Yes there is they burn a lot faster and one need more of it for the winter.

I just sell my poplar to the local OSB plant if I had my choice I would burn all hard maple.

Yup, we only have 4 species of trees around here . White Spruce , Black Spruce , Silver Poplar, and Cottonwood. There is some small amounts of birch in some areas but none close. Of the options available I burn poplar 90% .

BHN only tells part of the story.
a 15 bhn bullet can be supple and malleable or it can be brittle it's all in how the alloy is made up.
22 bhn would indicate an alloy that is 4% tin and 12% antimony.
or it could be 3% antimony and about .75% tin but the alloy has been heat treated to about 430-F for an hour and dropped into water.

the other thing that will affect how the alloy reacts on impact is velocity and meplat diameter.
a higher velocity coupled with a smaller meplat and a balanced alloy will have much better penetrating capability's.
a larger meplat, high velocity, and high antimony alloy [not balanced with other constituents] will generally have a tendency to break up especially on hard bone.

if you knew someone that casts their own they could work up something nice like a
.3% zinc .5% copper 3% antimony and 1% tin alloy that would be malleable and tough enough to take higher pressures it could be heat treated at about 450-F for a full hour then water quenched for a bhn in the 24-25 area.

Lamar:

Exactly. Hardness is only one part and alloy and heat treatment is the second. I didn't want to start a alloy/heat treat debate here

On that HC Ares there is for example "will be hard after 21st November". Is it due to alloy or coating?


Jiri

The water quenching , /toughness/hardness part. Is it forever in the bullet . Or does it diminish over time ?
What about a 90 ,5 , 5 alloy? Would it work well, ? What if the bullets were dropped from the mold into a 5 gal pail of cold water ??.
Bein I'm in Alaska, and 190 miles out of Anchorage . Getting lead is not all that easy and it is expensive.
With 440 gr per bullet basically 1 oz I would only be getting 16 bullets per pound of alloy. A bit better with the 300 + gr 44 bullets.
With the time involved I would likely be casting in the winter then shooting those bullets throughout the year. Just wondering if tempering is worth the extra effort as far as time goes ?

I very much appreciate all the replies. In the past everytime I looked into casting good bullets there always seemed to be far too much involved to make it worth while.
I'm mainly trying to decide if it would be better and more cost effective to buy bullets as opposed to casting my own.