It looks like I'll be doing some .460 Rowland load development in the very near future.

Clark kit and brass are on the way.

Anyone here have some relatively heavy bullet pointers/data for me to start with - from their own experience?

The intent is to get the 1911 set up with more of an 'oomph' margin for woods and timber carry on big game hunts here on the West Coast.

Mule deer, black bear, big cats, and feral pig are all likely suspects...



Cheers
Tinker

Get on Brownell's site and do a search in the How-To's section.
Steve Ostrem wrote an article on the Rowland.
There is some ammo info in there and if you want you can contact Steve at Brownell's.
He's a great guy and should be able to steer you in the right direction

Not sure what is heavy to you? I had some 300 grainers, but never tested them in my Rowland, because a buddy wanted them for his 45 ACP. The 230 XTP was the only bullet we chronoed, and with Longshot, it averaged 1400+fps. Have a few 260 grain Scorpion bullets right now, but sold my conversion to a buddy who packs it in Kodiak where he lives. He and his wife now has 460 Rowlands for their belt handgun.

The 1911 in 45 ACP is my favorite handgun...

The 44 Magnum is my favorite handgun calibre.

I have in the past loaded 45 ACP UP to beyond factory specs, using 24+lb springs, recoil buffers, before the 451 Detonics, and the 460 Roland as well as the 45 Win Mag, were avialable.

If I was to "do" a 460 Roland, I think I would use the Hornaday 230 XTP and a 230 FP "Solid", so I could get both to hit the same place at 50 yards. For practice, I would use a 230gr FP lead bullet at a hundred to a hundred and fifty fps below top loads.

I might even consider a 6" barrel on a standard Gov't slide.

www.realguns.com

has worked up loads for it. I never got past .451 Detonics...

My question is with the higher velocity that the 460 Rowland produces won't most bullets fail? I mean from what I have found shooting the 10mm with bullets designed for 40S&W velocities the bullets fail by coming apart and penetration is minimal. I would think the 45cal bullets would have the same effect since they are designed to expand at much slower velocities. Maybe a good hard cast bullet would be needed to take advantage of the velocity gain. Even the 230gr XTPs are meant for ACP velocity. I would think you would need to step up to the bullets meant for 45 Colt to prevent failure.

Several options to try here:
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/wst_page6.html
I use to have a LBT 230 LFN GC mold, and worked great for my then 45 Super and 460 Rowland. Some folks have gone as heavy as 260 grain LFN GC. Some 255 SWC worked fine in my 460 Rowland, but feel the LFN works better.

You could try some of the jacketed bullets from Hornady for the 45 Colt/454.

I think they are .452 diameter. They should be tougher than 45 ACP bullets.

Check with Hornady.

Thanks guys.

I've been super-ultra-slammed with tasks and work around preparing to sell our California piece and move to Nevada.
Big pile of things to do, lots on the plate, but big rewards at the end of it all.

450no2NE, the 1911 is also my favorite handgun, with acres and acres of training on it I'm looking forward to having a more solid hunting load than what the ACP will do.
44mag energies and performance are just fine with me for this slick-packing pistol.


On bullet selection, I have some CastPerformance WFNGC hard cast bullets that I'll try first.
My sense is that they'll do the trick with plenty of energy and at least very good accuracy.

Cross a finger for my family on the move - soon as I'm drinking Nevada water I'll get on load development and testing on cougar over hounds.



Cheers
Tinker

Tinker

The 1911 is my favorite handgun as well.

The 44 Mag is my most favorite handgun cartridge.

I have looked into the 460 a time or two.

Clark stuff is good. I used to shoot Bullseye with Jim Clark SR starting in the late 1960's, I used a Clark Long Heavy Slide 45ACP, and have known Jim JR and Kay for years.

I just prefer a revolver for the field, if an animal knocks me down I do not have to worry about functioning problems.

I shot a few different 1911'a today, I was helping a buddy break them in.

One was a Combat Commander with a Wilson Comp.

The comp takes most all the recoil out of it.

Let me know how that 460 Roland shoots, I might still have to have one.

I have shot all the BIG Magnum autoloaders, and they are just TOO BIG.

But a 1911 with the power of a 4" 44 Mag would be handy.

Good luck on the move, what part of Nevada are you moving too?

That handy and slim pistol with the 44mag 'service voucher' is what I'm looking for with this setup.
The hard cast flat points should perform nicely.

I've had 1911's go muzzle-first into desert silt (with me hanging on) in training (field conditions at no extra charge...) and had them back in service over the course of a couple seconds.
I've had wheel-guns go tits up from less abuse.
I know, I know...

Thanks for the wishes of good luck on our relocation.
We're looking at ranches in the hills between Reno and Pyramid Lake.
The trick is going to be getting a clean break from California.


Cheers
Tinker

I have a good friend that lives near LA.

I have gone out there a half a dozen times or so and stayed from a month to two months.

I was pleasantly suprised on my first trip, all the people I had contact with were nice and friendly.
The weather is fantastic 90% of the time.

The hiway system works pretty good considering the amount of traffic they carry.

But with their Gun Laws I could not live there.

But I do like to visit.

I finally managed to get out and test-drive a load in the Rowland kit.

I'd gotten a couple handfuls of the Cast Performance 265gr WFNGC and a couple bags of brass.

After having looked at what little cast bullet load data there was for anything in that weight range then following up a bit with the maker of the barrel and conversion kit I settled on AA#7 as the powder and CCI large pistol primers (as I have a good stock of them) and loaded a pair of cartridges at 1.240" (max possible with this bullet to work in a 1911 magazine) OAL on 10.9gr powder.

My chronograph had been unreliable and I'd chased the issues to the screens, fixed it with a new set of infrared screens - which by the way we tested in the kitchen (on a cloudy day, no additional lighting!) with an airgun.
Brilliant! They worked quite nicely.


With the chrono set up outside I tested the load for function and velocity into a sandy berm.

First two rounds functioned properly, but showed flat primers.
Switched the firing pin spring and the slide spring to the heavier springs provided in the kit.
Next four rounds showed consistent velocity, but with no change to the primers.

I'd read about this issue with the Rowland as run on a Kimber - seems as if Clark often suggests bushing the firing pin and carrying on with load development.

Velocity was a solid 995-998fps as read with the screens five feet from the muzzle.
Recoil was creampuff compared to pretty much everything I've been loading for the past couple years.
No muzzle flip to account for and I'm sure that quick controlled pairs would be cake with this load or hotter.
There was no case head expansion and the brass didn't look overly worked otherwise.
I don't think I'll have time to get back out for another test run this week or next.
In the meantime I'm considering running CCI200 large rifle primers and backing the charge off a few tenths of a grain to start again.
From all accounts 1000fps and a 260gr jacketed bullet is not a max load at all, and I'm thinking I'm in relatively safe space if I keep it in that neighborhood with this bullet.


We shall see...



Cheers
Tinker

How does the Rowland compare with the 10mm?
Peter.

Peter-

For me this is the way to get my 1911 set up for hunting, it's a handload proposition for me.
Google 10mm vs 460 rowland and you'll find quite a few conversations on the matter.
I chose this setup for the bullets.
I don't know what bullet I'd use to make the 10mm into a hunting cartridge.
This .452" 265gr hard cast flat point gas checked bullet will do just fine.

On comparison of handling or recoil etc, I doubt there would be much difference at all between similarly handloaded 10mm or 460 Rowland ammunition in similarly prepared guns.

The conversion kit from Clark ( see it here ) is a system including a muzzle comp with a good sized baffle and lots of vent area.
With the load I just ran through this setup, recoil is the typical 'popgun' treatment you get with such arrangements.
Having run other such pistols in the past with various different cartridges/loads, once they're set up and tuned for you and your load - they tend to handle pretty similarly.
The pistol does it's business and returns to battery with very little occasion - and little to no muzzle flip at all.



Cheers
Tinker

Tinker

Do you think you could get a 230gr to 250gr bullet to 1200fps?

No2-


We'll see.
The various published load data charts would say yes.

Taffin got the Hornady 230 XTP to rip with 15.7gr of AA#7 for 1335fpsMV and 7/8" for five shots!

With cast bullets, he ran the Lyman #452423/230 gr. with 14.0 gr. AA#7 for 1243fpsMV and 2" groups.
The Lyman #452424/245 gr. with 14.0 gr. AA#7 got 1231fpsMV and 1/2"(!!!) groups.


Twelve hundred feet/second shouldn't be too far in the vapor-ware category.
Do you have a favorite hunting bullet in that weight range?



Cheers
Tinker

Not certain, but I believe that I am getting close to 1200fps. from a 200 grain lead bullet from my 10mm. I have not tried 200gr. JFP yet. But this is a 10mm, not a 1911 conversion kit, which I can see would have some advantages.

Hmm. Just found this:
10mm : 200gn, 1200fps = 693 ft/lbs
45 Super: 200gn, 1200fps = 693 ft/lbs
10mm "proof": 170gn, 1400fps = 740 ft/lbs
.460 Rowland: 200gn, 1450fps = 934 ft/lbs
.44 Magnum: 240gn, 1350fps = 971 ft/lbs

The 10mm at close to max. is enough gun for me (in a semi auto)!
Peter.

Peter-


Are you hunting with the 10mm?
If so what bullet are you using?
Do you handload?

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
close to 1200fps. from a 200 grain lead bullet

Have you put that load through a chronograph?

quote:

But this is a 10mm, not a 1911 conversion kit, which I can see would have some advantages

Once the 1911 is running with a load it's what it is. No ballistic advantage from one properly set up gun to the next, conversion or not.
What make/model of 10mm pistol are you running?

quote:

Hmm. Just found this:
10mm : 200gn, 1200fps = 693 ft/lbs
45 Super: 200gn, 1200fps = 693 ft/lbs
10mm "proof": 170gn, 1400fps = 740 ft/lbs
.460 Rowland: 200gn, 1450fps = 934 ft/lbs
.44 Magnum: 240gn, 1350fps = 971 ft/lbs

Are those factory load notes or are those results from someone's handloading exercises?
From the Clark Custom Guns site, I see 185gr(1550fps) and 230gr(1330fps) factory ammunition from Georgia Arms, the Load-X catalog shows such a load but I don't know what bullet they're running.



Cheers
Tinker

Tinker

I do not have a favorite for hot 45 loads as I shoot the 44 Mag, and just in the past my +P+ ACP loads.

For a jacketed bullet the Hornady XTP's might be worth a look.

Maybe the ACP ones when you want a lot of exansion and the 45 Colt ones when you want some expansion, and of course hard cast when Penetration is what you need.

I have shot a lot of deer with a 44 Mag rifle, back when 240gr bullets was all there was.
Never recovered a bullet, so even at the increased velocity of the rifle they were lenty enough for deer.

No2-

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I have shot a lot of deer with a 44 Mag rifle, back when 240gr bullets was all there was.
Never recovered a bullet, so even at the increased velocity of the rifle they were lenty enough for deer.

What 240gr bullet was that, and did you ever chronograph that load from your hunting rifle?

I'm looking at getting a good bear/cat load together for hunting over the hound.
Relatively close range, accurate, good penetration - you get the picture.



Cheers
Tinker

Glad to hear you are enjoying your Rowland. I have read up on them quite a bit and wouldn't mind having one myself. The only thing that turns me off from them is the muzzle break. I just don't care for them as they hurt my ears even with ear protection.


I have a Kimber Stainless Target II in 10mm that I have been loading both 200gr Jacketed and the RCBS 200gr cast bullet. For the Jacketed bullets I was getting around 1220fps +/- and the Cast bullet I reduced the load a little and was around 1180fps +/-. I haven't had a chance to work up the load anymore to see if it would give me more velocity with the cast bullets as there were no signs of pressure. The primers looked the same as the factory ammo I was shooting. The powder I was using was Bluedot but i'm at work and don't remember the weight of the charge used. I didn't have enough of the ammo loaded to shoot for accuracy but they were shooting fine out of my pistol and no leading was seen in the barrel.

P8-

On the muzzle break -
I'd had similar feelings about them and when I used to compete with the 1911 I'd run an essentially bone-stock carry gun as my competition gun.
The main interest in competing was to stay fresh with my concealment gear - and I competed from inside-waist concealment leather and an actual carry gun.
I've shot and handled a few ventilated guns over the years, and two things keep me from having vertical vents on a carry gun - muzzle flash and length.

I have a different attitude on hunting handguns.
As all load development and target shooting is done with ear protection, I don't really have any worries about the noise.
In the field and in a real hunting situation, my experience has been that I don't (haven't) sense the noise at all.
Even shooting my .458 with 2400fps loads (no muzzle accessory) I haven't had a situation where noise was even noticeable - in actual field hunting situations.

Shooting even standard factory ball ammunition in the .45 (at the bench/range/match) without ear protection is hard on my ears.
I wouldn't want to run any smokeless anything (much more than a .22rimfire rifle) without protection for fear of screwing my hearing up any more than it already is.

One shot in a hunting situation, I'm fine without the plugs or muffs, even with the comp.
Handling (again for hunting situations) isn't so much affected with the muzzle brake either, except for when the gun is actually running - where it gives 'magic stick' qualities.
Tuned right, a compensated 1911 will snap directly back to point-of-aim before your eyes can readjust from the shot.
Neat stuff.



Cheers
Tinker

Tinker I killed deer with the following factory loads in my 44 Mag Ruger rifle.
Winchester 240 HP, Rem 240 SP, Rem 240 SJHP, and later the Federal 240 HP.

I also killed them with Seirra 240 HP and Speer 240 SP with 22.5gr of 2400 or 24 gr of H 110.

The only 44 bullet I ever recovered from a deer was a Speer 240 SP over 24gr of H 110, shot from a 6.5" S&W Mod 29 shot at 85 yards.
I got perfect expansion, the bullet recovered in the skin on the off side.

In a 44 Mag if I wanted a bear and cat load that would still give some expansion I would take a look at the 270 Speer Gold Dot SP.

I have recovered one of them shot into a pigs head at point blank range as a finisher and it held together well.

Also the Nosler Handgun bullets might be a good choice as well.

My Niece shot a pig with one from my Win Trapper 44 Mag and it was a bang flop.

I recently killed a pig with the Hornady facgtory 225 gr Lever Evolution, with the Win Traper at 40 yards and it was a bang flop.

The pig seemed slammed to the ground, but the core jacket seperated, so I would not use this bullet on a bear close up.

Tinker

Also if you are hunting in a Condor Zone take a look at the Barnes X bullet for the 454.
It is .451 diameter and is 250 grains.

No2-


I'll look for a JSP bullet in 240gr. but I just can't think of what it'd be.
The Barnes cupric bullets for the 454 are too long to end up in a cartridge what'll function in a 1911
I don't think I'll be able to drive an A-Frame 265gr bullet fast enough to get it to function.
The JHP bullets I'm seeing that'll fit the gun all seem too soft for what I want to do at the velocity I'm interested in running for a hunting load.


There seem to be lots of different cast bullet possibilities and if I'm going that route I might as well be running a gas check (since I can) and the Cast Performance bullet is designed to do it's trick by way of it's shape, not so much by way of expansion.
Also I can get the most bullet weight per bullet length with an all-lead or mostly-lead solid point bullet, and like I said there isn't a lot of room within an OAL that'll work in a 1911

I'm not so much looking for big expansion.
.45 is a good size to start with and if the thing's accurate I'm sure it'll get'er'done.
I might end up going the Lyman mould route and cast my own 240gr bullets.

All this when I can actually get my handloading gear back out of storage (this recent little exercise was dovetailed into errands and chores out at the ranch) and re-establish some structure and sanity to my loading/shooting/hunting life.

Wish me luck!



Cheers
Tinker

Take a look at the Hornady 250gr .452dia, XTP MAG bullet.

It might have the right combination of penetration and expansion for your 460 Rowland.

a tinkerer, I have a EAA Witness Match in 10mm. I do handload. The 200 grain lead bullets are from Montana Gold, the 200gr. JFP I don't know the source but I bought them for my 40 S&W. So, the around 1200 fps is my personal experience using a chronograph, but I don't have the load handy. The quote at the bottom of my post (comparisons) was from one of the links I obtained by Googling "460 Rowland and 10mm".
Peter.

No2-


I just looked into that Hornady 250gr Mag JHP - it looks like it'd be a real ripper at 1200fps in the 1911.
I might just have to scratch up a box some time soon and give them a test-drive.
They're a smidge shorter than the CP 260gr bullets and it looks like I'd be able to seat them further out near/at MaxCOAL and still work in the magazine.


Peter-

Have you hunted with that 200gr Montana Gold bullet?
I haven't ever run anything from that maker - don't think I've ever seen them before (did a search just now and found the site...)
Do you know if the jackets are bonded or how well they hold together, if the cores are soft/hard/etc..?



Cheers
Tinker

Tinker

Take a look at Cor Bon's 460 Rowland loads.

They have a 185gr Personal Protection load at 1425fps...

230gr HP and FMJ loads at 1250fps...

And a 255gr Bonded Core load at 1100fps.

So a 250gr at @1200 should be doable.

Basically a "light running 44 Mag" in a 1911...

A very good combination IMHO...

Something that a 1911/44Mag "freek" can really appreciate.

No2-


That 185gr at 1450 is something.
Personal protection?
Damn.

Here is some load data.

My chronograph (at five feet) said 995-998fps with 10.9gr AA7
That's just about exactly what this guy was getting with the jacketed 260 on the same charge.
Good to see someone's chronograph data actually compares with something that I did for a change.
I might give true blue and/or power pistol a try with this 265 C.P. bullet and the JHP you pointed out.
1150 with the 265 would very much do the trick.

A friend here in CA hunts black bear whenever he can (and has been doing it for 30+ years), with a ruger blackhawk. He's killed a few bear with the Fusion 240gr ammunition, which claims 1290fps -- I don't know what it's actually doing from a handgun, but evidently it kills bear very nicely.

Whether with the 265 or a JHP, this might work out after all!

Did you see the 1520+fps 185gr loads on that page of data?
Holy frick.



Cheers
Tinker

Tinker,
The Hornady Mag bullets were made for the 454 Casull type velocities and pressures. The standard XTP might give you better expansion. But if you want no expansion, then the cast would be hard to beat, since you also gain some velocity and lower pressures. That 230 LFN would give you a lot of velocity, although a heavier LFN would penetrate better. Barnes has a light weight .45 bullet, but not sure if you'll get much penetration if its too light, especially with bigger game. You might give Barnes a call. The nice thing about cast bullets too, is that they are cheaper, thus letting you practice more. I read somewhere that the Winchester JHP held together pretty good, in the higher velocities(45 Win Mag), but don't recall at the moment where? As far as the comp, I believe they do work better with higher velocities? Now your tempting me to get a 460 Rowland too???? Was shooting my FA 454 today. and it does give me a lot more power, but shot my 1911 right after, and I just love my 1911. Its with me most of the time when I legally can, and was thinking about last night, and using it for hunting something? Have a handgun book by a guy Nonte and I think Jurras, and they hunted black bear and boar with the 1911. Watched this DVD last night, and he shot a lot of game. The revolver is a 44 mag, and his main load was the Hornady 300 grain at 1100 fps. Yup, even on them buffalo's. This is a short flick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTeEmNUkjw
I need to find out what my buddy carries, in the 460 Rowland I sold him, and what his wife carries with her Rowland. And they pack it in Kodiak, Alaska, where the big bears roam. I'm still surprised they carry 460 Rowland's as their belt guns? He does like handguns, and he did harvest one of his bears(not black bear) with of all things, his T/C single shot pistol, while he was at the shooting range. I faintly recall him saying the 460 Rowland would be easier for quick multiple shots, and easier to handle and control, than magnum revolvers, especially his wife.

Oh yah, the powder my buddy used to get the 1400+ fps out of his 460 Rowland, with the 230 XTP, was Longshot.

quote:

Have a handgun book by a guy Nonte and I think Jurras,

Interesting as Lee Jurras was an advocate of the "light and fast" theory of hunting bullets which is somewhat out of vogue these days. I have the same book, I think.
Peter.

Tinker

Keeping things simple might be a good way to go.

First I would test the 2 different Hornady XTP's.

The Mag might be good for bigger stuff, and the regular XTP for game like deer or shots at longer range where velocity has dropped some.

Then have a full power hard cast bullet for max penetration.

And a cast bullet at about 75% power for practice.

HHI812-

Is this the Scorpion 260gr bullet you speak of?



Have you actually shot anything with one of these?
Pull one from the box and measure it for length please.

I'm not so much looking for expansion - what I want killing performance.
That's the premise here, and the limits are COAL (feeding from 1911 magazines here) and 40,000CUP
Case capacity ends up being the really meaningful ramification of the OAL concern.
Powder room gets pretty small with the bigger bullets.

With the known-good performance of the WFN hard cast bullets, my sense is that I'd do OK in the 240-265 gr range and go for as much velocity as I can get. The less copper in the bullet, the more room I'll get for powder.
I'm not necessarily concerned with condors.
In the process of moving to Nevada right now, and my interest will be to hunt that state as much as possible when I get there - this will likely end up being a cat gun, and they hand out cougar tags like candy (over the counter!) in Nevada.

I looked at the lighter Barnes copper pistol bullets - the 160gr and 185gr bullets look dainty and I wonder how they'd do up at 1500++fpsMV
That 160gr bullet could likely go (quite a way) over 1600 feet (!!!!), but would it actually hold together..?
Their 200gr spitzer HP looks to be designed for velocities that this setup wouldn't achieve, the 225 looks to be about the same length as the 250. I have a box of the 250 here, and I think they're just too long to have a chance.
With an essentially 'not going to help you with load data' attitude from the gang at Barnes, I'm not too excited to buy enough of their bullets to get through load development and evaluation.

This little polymer tip number would make a very very nasty looking magazine full of handloads...

But for some reason I just don't get the sense it's a cat or bear bullet.

There's a pretty narrow margin on what'll end up being an ideal setup - and that's going to include the long run of reliability and function in the field.
I've only put six rounds down the pipe on this thing (flawless function of the action, for what it's worth) and I'm only one step closer to finding a hunting load.
I haven't even looked at clearing malfunctions with it (and it's 24# spring ) yet, the first chamber check by way of a pinch on the forward grasping grooves was an eye opener but I've put the muscle memory system through a crash course on that one.

It's new and different and I'm excited to get something together as a final solution as soon as I can.
There's a lot on my plate in other parts of my life right now, so at this point it's little steps and big thoughts...



Cheers
Tinker

No2

I hear you.
Much to think about, it would take forever to get through all the possible combinations.
Function and reliability with a good killing round is what I want.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Keeping things simple might be a good way to go.

...2 different XTP
...and a cast bullet at about 75% power for practice
...(and) a full power hard cast bullet for max penetration

Still, it's going to be a while until I can actually spend the quality range time needed to get there.

I'm considering doing the JPoint or Docter micro-sight too.
If I go that route it's into the machine shop to mill the slide for the super-low proflie mounting treatment.

Once I get the right hunting load together - and then get the pistol sorted out around it,
I'll then know what springs etc are needed.
From there it'll be time to work down to the minimum power for function as a light load -- which I'm sure would end up having the pistol handling like a paintball gun!.



Cheers
Tinker

Tinker,
Yup, thats the Scorpion bullet. Only got a few left, but never got a chance to try them. Had their 300 grain bullet, but buddy wanted them so sold it to him. Another buddy wanted the Scorpions, and being that I sold my 460 Rowland conversions, sold him the Scorpions. With all this great info coming in, I'm really getting tempted to get a 460 Rowland again. That plastic tip spire point looks neat, and if it works in a 1911 mag, it would be a good one. I think it was developed for the 460 S&W, so not sure if it has a really thick jacket?

Tinker

I have a couple of Docter Optic sights on rifles.

It is a good piece of work.