And now, a Fly in the ointment....

And this is comming from a 1911 kind of guy...

For animal protection, I prefer the S&W 4" 44 Mag REVOLVER...

You might not know you have "animal trouble" until you are knocked down...

In all probility a semiauto will probably not function 100% when you are in "contact" with the animal. Too many "things" can cause slide malfunction...

Same is true in Hostage Rescue, or getting somebody off of you in Close Quarter CONTACT situations...

One reason why, when I "go among the people" I carry a 1911 with several extra mags, and a revolver as well...

In the "woods" I most often carry a revolver...

If you find yourself in a "grappeling" situation with an animal, or a human a revolver is what you need... IMHO...


Still I like the idea of a 460 Rowland...

No2-


10-4 on mixing sweat and pistol handling while in a 'big handshake'

Not really looking to build a fighting pistol here though, and I do have a compact DA 44 that Mernickle built a very tidy rig for last winter.

I like the way the 1911 packs and handles, mine is in the belt or on an open field holster almost every day. The controls are right there in a transparently 'natural' zone for me and I don't end up having to think much between nowhere/nothing and 'shoot/don't shoot'

The bottom line for me on 'fighting guns' is that I do all I can to minimize the opportunity and occasion for even thinking about fighting men, and all the while maximize the opportunity and occasion to get out and hunt!
Still hear you on the 'animal trouble' angle too.
A friend nearly got his ass kicked by a blacktail buck in Northern California last October, was all he could do to get his RSA out of the leather and shoot in self-defense (venison dinner that night) - and that was just deer. Same guy (few years ago) had to save his own bacon from 300 or so pounds of angry bacon with fangs by shooting that same RSA over his shoulder as he was running in retreat.
Put the pig down, but had to take both hounds to the vet for surgery.
You never know...



Cheers
Tinker

Took a look at the 230xtp on paper.

With a MV of 1350 and a zero at 85 yds, you get a point blank pistol to 100 yards with no more than 1.7" above or below the POA, and 1122fps/642lbs at 100 yards.

Nice, out of a 1911!

45acp 230 ball at the muzzle is 850fps/369lbs



Cheers
Tinker

Even if you only get the 1250 of the Cor Bon load, that is plenty good in a "1911".

I might have to have one as well...

Tinker, I am also curious if your 460 Rowland will function with factory 230gr ball and factory 230gr HP's.

No2-


I'll let you know very soon on the factory ball and HP ammunition.
I have some of each here and need to get out to the ranch in the morning.

Don't know if I'll be able to get any of the WFNGC loaded up with the rifle primers or if there'll be time to get the chronograph and gear loaded and set up for the tour - but we'll know about ball and HP over a 24lb spring.

Back when my old man was still alive we'd chew the rag three or so times a day on subjects ranging from strange women with unnatural hair color to hunting squirrels with black powder and everything in between.
Come to think of it, there isn't much between the two that isn't related to guns booze and tooling, but this cartridge would end up in the conversation once every now and then.

It's not like I've been on the fence or anything like that, but for fifteen or so years there's been room on the welcome mat for one of these conversion kits if and when it'd come along and bite me on the ass.
Here it is, and now I'm seriously considering putting the slide in the Kurt AngleLock for a date with a shell mill on it's way to homecoming with a holographic sight.

I'm OK with it.



Cheers
Tinker

When I was running my HOT loads in a standard 1911, with a 24 lb recoil spring with no Comp, it would also run with factory 230gr stuff...

I am a firm holder and had no malfunctions..

But my gun had no comp...

In the days of Ace Hindeman, and the 45 Super, I ran dual springs(similar to 10mm Delta setup). But with any action, there will be a reaction. A strong spring will buffer the recoil of the slide, but with that compressed spring, it will have to return that slide with the same impact, and slam it back into lock up. Didn't have a comp either, and actually used cut back 308 Win or 30-06 cases. My old, basically stock Norinco 1911, runs with standard springs. What a buddy Jack Huntington did was delay the unlock of the barrel with the linkage, rather than depend on a spring to buffer the slide. Don't understand the technicality of it, just his explanation. I don't shoot a lot of 45 Super ammo, but its handled the ones I've shot so far, with no visible damage, and still shoots standard 45 ACP ammo. Never did try using large rifle primers in the cut down rifle cases? With such a small case capacity, not sure if the large primer would help?

Tried the WFN bullets, but had to seat them really deep into the case, using a lot of powder capacity, and limiting bullet weight. The LFN seams to give the most weight without losing powder capacity. Again, Longshot seems to give the best velocity with less pressure signs.

HHI812


The CCI200 rifle primer (chosen as the thinnest, softest, and lightest of all) is going for a test-drive to handle the flat primer issue.
The base pistol is an early Yonkers Kimber Target model, and from many accounts this is a common issue with that gun. Clark/Rowland appear to be familiar with this and the typical prescription is to bush the firing pin hole, run a smaller diameter firing pin, and carry on with load development - keeping within max velocity and powder charge limitations.
Not looking for more power, simply looking to get on without modifying the firing pin system.



No2-

No-go on 45acp 230gr ball ammunition.
No-go on 45acp 230gr Winchester Ranger JHP (+P) ammunition.




Cheers
Tinker

Tinker

I was afraid that the Comp would keep the standard loads from functioning.

Still on a 1911 of that power a Comp is the way to go for sure.

Good luck with your experiments.

Tinker,
I recall faintly using a heavier firing pin spring and a custom firing pin that was slightly shorter than the stock firing pin, because of the faster recoil slide speed, and to prevent firing pin piercing. Simple cheap mods.
Dennis

HHI812


The Clark kit comes with a heavy/long firing pin spring - and it's in the gun already.
I'm not getting piercing, but with nearly 40kCUP on the big dent from the big pin (and pin journal) I'm getting very flat primers at the strike zone.
The CCI200 (again, which is the coolest, thinnest, and softest large rifle primer out there) costs pretty much the same as any other primer, and since this is a handload proposition for me anyway, I'm fine with running them if they work.
I'll be backing the powder charge back for the start of load development with them.

The way I see this is that if I can get consistent ignition and performance with them - without screwing the pooch on pressures (measuring the case heads on virgin brass) I'll be happy to have a solution that doesn't involve machining the breech face, bushing the firing pin journal, and replacing or modifying the firing pin.



Cheers
Tinker

CCI220 is a no-go.

From what I've seen, a 1911 (pre-A1) firing pin stop and the .025-.035 shorter firing pin might just be the answer to this.

Also, went at it with the Hornady 250gr XTP as a friend handed me a box of them to test-drive.
It looks like I'm going to have to fiddle with seating depth to get them to feed.
The WFNGC loads fed nicely.
Need to find some 230gr XTP bullets.
On paper they look great, flat and fast with a lot of energy and a very good reputation of holding together.
We shall see!



Cheers
Tinker

Any update on the 460 Rowland?

I'd be interested in any updates too! See what you did, I went and got a 460 Rowland conversion again. It came in last week, and brass just got in a few days ago. Got some Power Pistol and Longshot powder, and some 230 LFN Montana cast bullets. Just need some load suggestions? There was an article in Handloader on the 460 Rowland, but sadly I didn't buy the issue. Any chance someone has it?
Thanks,
Dennis

I'll add my 2 cents, as I have the 460 rowland conversion on my Springfield. I picked the Springfield because its has the small firing pin, less chance of primer flow. My gun feeds all 230 grain and under bullets without a problem.


After hundreds of rounds I found that the Rowland ( mine anyway) only likes Federal 150 large pistol primers. It is very accurate, my favorite load is 11 grains of Longshot with a Winchester 230 grain jhp @ 1250 fps its one big ragged hole accurate.

I was surprised how well the Winchesters perform in wet paper and 5 gal. bucket of sand. They expand and do not shed there jacket even in sand at point blank range.


HHI812 some load data.

http://www.realguns.com/loads/460Rowland.htm

doubledown,
Thanks for the info. I shot a buddy's 460 Rowland, and we chronoed 1400+fps, with a XTP 230. We thought the chrono was messing up, but it was working fine.

Glad the Fed 150 works, because that is all I have, along with Longshot.

Had a couple hundred of those Winchester bullets, but buddy talked me out of them. I recall reading somewhere that it stayed together when a guy was using them in his 45 Win Mag. That is why I picked them up. Might have to get some again.

I had that real gun info, and was hoping someone had that Handloader article. It was a pretty good write up on the 460 Rowland.

Thanks,

Dennis

I've been very busy - haven't handloaded anything in a while.

I did order a blank oversize firing pin stop and have set that particular end of the gun up in pre-A1 no-radius trim.
Hopefully that and the heavy and long firing pin spring will do the trick for the primer issues.

Got a box of the Hornady 230grXTP bullets this week. Also have the powder to get going on a load for them, and I'm borrowing a Factory Crimp die for the next run of cartridges.

I'll try to get something through a chronograph by mid next week and check back with this thread.



Cross a finger for me...



Cheers
Tinker

At long last...


The sale of our old place and move to our new ranch in NV got in the way of this load development project.

A friend had given me a box of the 230gr Hornady XTP bullets, on which I had gotten many high recommendations.

Running the Starline cases, AA#7 powder, and Federal 150 primers, finishing the loads with a heavy crimp by way of the Lee Factory Crimp die I got 1300FPS over the chronograph just about two feet behind the screens.

This was after having gone to the heaviest recoil spring, the heavy firing pin spring, and also having switched to a new (minimum radius) firing pin block.

With this load there's a bit of scuffing on the primers, but the load is consistent and the brass doesn't look sketchy at all.
Another tenth of a grain gets an additional 25fps, but the brass appears to be heading in the wrong direction.

From the Hornady Ballistics Tables:

Muzzle = 1300fps +.8"
25yds = 1237fps +1.7"
50yds = 1181fps +2.7"
75yds = 1131fps +2.2"
100yds = 1098fps +-0"
150yds = 1021fps -10"
200yds = 968fps -28.3"


I haven't tested for accuracy yet, just did the work to arrive at a max load.

More later



Cheers
Tinker

a.tinkerer, don't know if you're aware of this since you're moving to NV but the Rowland is not legal for big game in NV, and that includes mountain lion. Reg states for handguns.
1) A centerfire cartridge of 22 caliber or larger with an overall loaded length of 2 inches; OR
2) A centerfire cartridge of 24 caliber or larger with a case length equal to or longer than the case of a Remington 44 Magnum.
Silly law, it rules out 10mm, 45 Winchester Magnum, yet allows the use of 30 Carbine and 32-20, etc.

Thanks for that note.

As my first trip to the fish/game office left me with the news that I'm non-resident for the first six months here, I dropped the research on hunts here until I finish up getting the ranch systems squared away and the house sorted for our soon-to-come homebirth.

This pistol will still do very well around here as a daily carry piece - there's plenty of work for a slender/slick/swift/accurate pistol here on the ridge.

I haven't had the time yet to get out and accuracy test the load, but when that time comes I'll ping this thread with whatever I find.
There's not a great deal of archived conversation on the net of load development and use of this cartridge.
Hopefully some of this will be useful to someone else in the future.



Cheers
Tinker

A lot of guys up here in AK is playing with this cartridge and the converted platforms, especially the Springfield XD's. Wild West Guns that do the chamber reamings for these guys say that the S&W M&P 45's can also be converted.

It really is a neat cartridge/system for the 1911

Once I get the 230gr load sorted for good - and if it's accurate at this point, 1300fps is a ripper and flat as I could want - I'll work something out with a lighter bullet too.

We get coyote out here, sometimes gangs of them in the middle of the day.
As it is, this 230grXTP would do just fine (!!!).
I'm guessing one of the quicker 180gr loads would give it laser-beam qualities on the rascals.



Cheers
Tinker

I've been "eyeballin'" Nevada, specifically Central Nevada, as a retirement place last couple of years. Love the people there and the wide open country. No state income tax is also a plus.

Right now is a great time to bring your cash and buy a good piece of property.

I did well for our family here, everyone is having a blast with the new ranch.

Hopefully I'll get through the bigger piece of the chores list before summer is out!



Cheers
Tinker

Interesting thread this ~ Came to my attn that for their CA kit clients, they offer a complimentary pinning of the the comp unit ~ then weld the pin to keep us CA citizens out of jail. Anyway, as a 45 ACP owner, this is something I've been looking for. For hard bullets, I see Wideners still has the Nosler 260gr partitions for about half price. Still, I'll probably use hard cast then go from there if necessary.

On the CA issue - "assault pistol" and that's solely due to the threaded barrel, not the cartridge...
what a raft of crap.

On bullet choice and weight -- running the heavier bullets takes a bunch of case powder room where there is little to start.
Pressures get spooky quickly in the development process with this one and it's double-damn important to have the chronograph up and running throughout the tour.
Also you're talking about getting your loads to feed through a 1911 and things seem to change as you slam them through the action faster-and-faster.

So far this hasn't just been a load-development for me, it's been more of a system development.
Everything matters, and this thing runs pretty close to the ragged edge (as a matter of course) right about where it starts running right.

quote:

Originally posted by odoh:
Interesting thread this ~ Came to my attn that for their CA kit clients, they offer a complimentary pinning of the the comp unit ~ then weld the pin to keep us CA citizens out of jail. Anyway, as a 45 ACP owner, this is something I've been looking for. For hard bullets, I see Wideners still has the Nosler 260gr partitions for about half price. Still, I'll probably use hard cast then go from there if necessary.

Cheers
Tinker

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Also you're talking about getting your loads to feed through a 1911 and things seem to change as you slam them through the action faster-and-faster.

So far this hasn't just been a load-development for me, it's been more of a system development.

Everything matters, and this thing runs pretty close to the ragged edge (as a matter of course) right about where it starts running right.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Cheers
Tinker

Your comment re: ". . . . . you slam them through the action faster-and-faster." raises a question alluded to the in the FAQ section of Clarks website pertaining to the potential for increased/accellerated wear. Do you plan/recommend using those polymer/urathane shock buffs to minimize slide/frame battering? As a seasoned citizen I'm aware of natures law of wear & tear but really like to avoid abusing the hardware ~ thots?

For whatever reason, the consistent word tends to be no on the shock-buff.
I'm not running one.
I'm not racing this pistol either, and I'm not feeling any sort of need to train like mad with the cartridge either.
With that huge ported muzzle, it's a little popgun. It hits where I point it.
No big deal, no need for any sort of discovery process - and I'm good old friends with the 1911 and know the handshake already.



Cheers
Tinker

Yes, thats been my take in the absence of comments to the contrary. Implication credits the compensator. Hope to know more after I get some experience on the conversion. They should have a shipment in very soon.

Ok, got my ans re the shock buffs. Clark is adament about using their provided hw as the buff pads does limit the slide travel affecting its reliability.

I have used the Shok buff in 1911 Govt models that I was using for Match shooting. Those guns are shot a lot and it might help with the battering of the gun.

I never use one for a Protection gun.

When I was shooting my own 45 ACP handloads that were ++P++, I used the Shok Buff for pratice, not for Duty..

I also used a 24lb recoil spring.

Ince at the range, whild shooting I broke the "feet" off of the bushing, launching the recoil plug and recoil spring out the front of the gun...

I drove to my 1911 Smith and he said "WHAT WERE YOU SHOOTING???"

I will not repeat the loads here, but I did give it some thought and toned it down a little....

Today I do not go above factory in my 1911's.

I prefer a 44 Mag revolver for the field.


But a dedicated 460 Rowland, with a Comp, still "calls" to me...

One of my main "stoppages" is the fact that I find the Speer shotshells to be an ABSOLUTE necessity for a field gun.

You just cannot shoot them in a Comp gun.

There must be something about the speer shotshells I'm missing . . . ?

quote:

Originally posted by odoh:
There must be something about the speer shotshells I'm missing . . . ?

If you have not used them, there is...

While I have used them in 9mm, and 38 Special for snakes and some small game, [the wife has shot a bunch of snakes with her 2" 38], I have mostly used the 44 Mag and the 45 ACP.

Also the wife has shot several snakes, rabbits, squirrels and groluse with her 44 mag as well.

I fine the 45 ACP and the 44 Mag Speer shotshells to be pretty much equal IMHO.

With them I have taken snakes,[even in Africa] field mouse,rabbits, squirrel, dove, quail, grouse, and ptmargin[sp].

I have killed, and eaten, a bunch of game with the Speer shotshells.

I never go into the field with out them.

Thats quite a recommendation ~ my only experience was 50yrs ago w/22cal and it was disappointing. Thanks for the enlightenment.

odoh

If you are "around snakes", or like to eat small game give them a try.

450-


I've been running the speer shot shells in my 460 conversion.
First round on top of the mag, they won't cycle the second round, but they're bloody murder on field rats and kangaroo rats out here on the ridge.
No problems with the comp, and I'd tested a few rounds with them before I went ahead with them for field carry here on the ranch.

Might I just be lucky?
Perhaps.
But it works!



Cheers
Tinker

Tinker

Interesting. I would have thought they would not clear the comp without causing some problems...

Must admit I'd thought twice.

Rips the crap out of small game with center mass hits.
Field rats end up as a stinking grease smear with the snout and ass flying different directions.

My quad still has what's left of the last one on the exhaust pipe and fender.

I could very well stand to back up a way on the next few critters I shoot with shot shells out of that thing.



Cheers
Tinker

Awright, that does it! I'm gonna hafta try those speer shotshells myself!

Reading this prompted me to try out the 460 in my bullet trap (jumble of boulders in the backyard). Told the missus to hold on and ripped off a few starting loads. She observed that it wasn't bad at all. Now THAT wasn't bad coming from a self proclaimed anti ~ Gonna have fun w/this'un!