Hallo guys.

-With interest I've read your words about the remarkable penetration power of the .475 and .500 Linebaugh!

The .475 is hailed as the PENETRATION king.
But the .500 is considerd the best SLAPPER due to its larger bullet,- but comming in second in penetration power..

I thought about the above.
I think the .500 has an edge overall, because nothing stops us from just using the
SAME meplat DIAMETER on our cast .500 bullet, as we use on the .475 hardcast bullet!

-What I'm saying is:
If both bullets (-the .475 bullet and the .500 bullet-) weighs the same, has the same velocity, and has the same meplat size,
penetration should be EQUAL.

But beyond this, the larger .500 has some ballistic ADVANTAGES over the .475 that I know you guys are aware of.

What do you all feel regarding this issue?

(Happy holidays to you all!)

Chr.

quote:

The .475 is hailed as the PENETRATION king.

Exactly who hailed the 475 the "penetration king"?

The 500 Linebaugh and 500 JRH with heavy hard cast bullets and a proper meplat have slightly out penetrated the 475 linebaugh. I have not seen the 475 with Punch bullets go head to head with the 500 with punch bullets. I have seen a 450 grain punch in the 500 Linebaugh slightly out penetrate the hard cast

Kind of curious if the 1350 fps, 525 grain .510" loads I've got, and, or 525's at 1100 fps would out penetrate the .475...

At least according to the Linebaugh seminar, bullet weight is KING in penetration.

jwp, have you tried rifle solids in the .510" revolvers? Wonder how that Barnes round nose 600 grain bullet we shot out of the .510 Van Horn would work?

http://www.handloads.com/misc/...enetration.tests.asp


Guess you must be referring to the one shot, with a 430 grain bullet that went 64" in newsprint, but only 20 in paper and bone.

Try clicking on the heading, paper first, then paper and bone, and, you get very different results.

In fact, the results start looking like they should be salted and cured.

The 525 grian at 1091 FPS slightly out penetrated the 420 LFN doing 1382 FPS at the Linebaugh Seminar in Jackson, Miss. a couple of years ago. The 525 Grain WLFN at just under 1600 FPS out of the 50 Alaskan revolver pentrated the same as the 525 at 1091. A punch bullet in the Alaskan would have penetrated deeper IMHO.

Here are some of the recovered bullets




The hard cast to the left of the Punch bullet is the 525 WLFN that was fired from the 50 Alaskan, the bullet to the left of that bullet is the 525 WLFN fired from the 500 Linebaugh. Notice that the added velocity caused the meplat to widen and shorthen the bullets lenght, this inhibited its penetration IMHO

The bullets from left to right, 1-180 TSX 30 Cal. 2- 420 LFN 475,3- 425 grain 500 JRH, 4- 525 WLFN 500 Linebaugh, 5- 525 WLFN from 50 Alaskan, 6- 450 grain Punch bullet from 500 Linebaugh, 7-4oo grain Partition from 416 Rigby

i use both and still have to give the 475 the nod in pentration. before anyone jumps down my throat let me say why. The 500 may do as well with bullets over 500 grain but in my opinion bullets 480 grain are ideal for the 500. Im talking a combination of things here. Most of my hunting loads run around 1100 fps which is doable with the 500 grain 500s but thats about it. the 475 will push a 420 to about 1300 fps penetrate just as deaply and shoot flatter if your shooting anything out around a 100 yards. Given to load with each using the same weight bullet at the same speed with the same metplat and the 475 will outpenetrate the 500 due to the fact the 475 bullet will have a better sectional density. Weve tested punch bullets in both. Both will give all the penetration you will ever need but the 475 becomes amazing with them. Why? Because the 475 can push them faster and with better sectional density and he punch bullet is not velocity limited like a cast bullet. The faster you push it the farther it penetrates. Bottom line is either will shoot lenghtwize through about anything but then so will a 44 mag 45 colt or 454 with proper loads. But overall combo of hitting,penetrating and trajectory make mine a 475. put it this way. Ill put my custom marlin 475 94 up against any gun of any kind thats made using punch bullets in a pentration test GS your loads would probably run with a 475 but your obvioulsy using a maximum. Again ill go this route to defeat you. Id take a 475 max and shoot punch bullets at 1500 and leave shoot right through about any test media. So to sum up my opinion to beat a 475 with a 420 cast bullet its going to take a 512 weighting over 500 grain probably around 525 about about 1300 fps and to do that its going to take a maximum and recoil is going to be so stout that most shooters including myself will have to admit is at a level that is no longer enjoyable to shoot.

I really don't put a lot of stock in sectional density any more particularly in light of the way these handguns penetrate all out of proportion to their paper ballistics. But you see, most folks load their .500s light relative to caliber and I think that may be the limiting factor. Lloyd's 480 grain bullets are pretty heavy considering the fact that so many .500 Linebaughs are loaded with only 450 grain bullets. Yet, we don't hesitate to load the .475 with 420s and 440s........

LloydSmale: I think you are pretty close to right, but, you have to remember the 525's will run 1550 fps out of my gun, if I'm stupid enough to try and shoot a 85 ft lb recoiling
handgun, which I'm not.

Some REALLY crazy bullet folk cut the nose off a BMG practice lead round, and came up with a nice, 700 grain bullet, that is pretty much
only shootable out of a maximum:



Never shot the above...but if they stabilize, or even if they don't, that's an AWFUL lot of lead...

Here's an old picture of some 525's, and a couple Nitro Express .500 rounds, in my cartridge collection, but the empty
was shot out of Seans' .500 Nitro double. NICE round, and gun...

The 430 .500JRH did in a asian buffalo, IIRC, and you can see how it deformed on bone:





I have to ask what, if anything, have any of these loads fail to penetrate fully, and leave two holes?

My bullet choices are trying to find something that penetrates less, expands more, and still punches through target, or pig or deer.

Marko: The odd part is if you look at the .510 rifles, 600 grains, in a monometal is about the right length SD wise, but, still, it's
sort of like shooting a brick. IIRC, for soft points, you need 630 grains to get enough weight to punch through the intended horned typed targets.

Given your parameters the .475 will penetrate deeper since you used the same weight for both slugs & the same metplat the smaller diameter slug if driven to the same impact speed will have less resistance in what ever meat it impacts with. If the weights were equal percentage wise to the diameter then the larger & heavier slug should be the better performer.

Both should kill what ever you shoot with them.

I don't think any critter will be able to tell the differants in a few inchs of penetration.

In another thread, I posted some of the old press releases that should answer your questions, at least according to John Linebaugh...

quote:

Originally posted by shorthair:
Given your parameters the .475 will penetrate deeper since you used the same weight for both slugs & the same metplat the smaller diameter slug if driven to the same impact speed will have less resistance in what ever meat it impacts with. If the weights were equal percentage wise to the diameter then the larger & heavier slug should be the better performer.

That was my point. Why load them with the same weight bullet? To take full advantage of the larger diameter, you need to move up in weight.

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
LloydSmale: I think you are pretty close to right, but, you have to remember the 525's will run 1550 fps out of my gun, if I'm stupid enough to try and shoot a 85 ft lb recoiling
handgun, which I'm not.

Actualy GS I seriously dought that you can get 1550 out od a Maximum with a 525 Grainer and if you did you will have pressures way over the safety margin of the gun. 1550 and over is 50 Alaskan and 50-110 territory.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
LloydSmale: I think you are pretty close to right, but, you have to remember the 525's will run 1550 fps out of my gun, if I'm stupid enough to try and shoot a 85 ft lb recoiling
handgun, which I'm not.

Actualy GS I seriously dought that you can get 1550 out od a Maximum with a 525 Grainer and if you did you will have pressures way over the safety margin of the gun. 1550 and over is 50 Alaskan and 50-110 territory.

jwp475:

They may have got faster in the telling. The original owner commissioned Tim Sundles to make up some 1550 fps 525's, according to the gunsmith that made the gun. The result was a 525 pulled down the outside
of the ribcage of a buffalo, that had to be finished by someone else. I think that one is in the record books, as well.

That's how I remember it, anyway. Never did try anything that fast. Figured 1350 fps was enough, and, I don't think they are really going that fast.

I think you've made a find the original designer never intended, and, that it works really well.

My hat's off to you.

Merry Christmas

GS

Once you get consistant exits on game, it is accedemic internet arguing as to which digs deeper on wet newsprint.

My lowly 480 w/ a 460 gr WFN @ a mere 1100 fps had penetration that was only slightly less than the best 475 and 500 loads the year it was tested at the linebaugh seminar (and outpenetrated many of the other loads tested), 38" in wet newsprint, 2+" bone and ~12" of newsprint on the bone and paper test.



Both linebaugh cartridge are outstanding designs and excellent choices for someone that wants to hunt all game with a sixgun. The 475 has the slight edge on the availability of brass and componet bullets.

Are you going to find an animal that is "slapped" down by the 500 that will appear unafected when shot by the 500, not likely. Nor are you likely to find an animal that is drilled clear through with the 475 that the 500 would barely make it through the hide.

quote:

Originally posted by GS:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
LloydSmale: I think you are pretty close to right, but, you have to remember the 525's will run 1550 fps out of my gun, if I'm stupid enough to try and shoot a 85 ft lb recoiling
handgun, which I'm not.

Actualy GS I seriously dought that you can get 1550 out od a Maximum with a 525 Grainer and if you did you will have pressures way over the safety margin of the gun. 1550 and over is 50 Alaskan and 50-110 territory.

jwp475:

They may have got faster in the telling. The original owner commissioned Tim Sundles to make up some 1550 fps 525's, according to the gunsmith that made the gun. The result was a 525 pulled down the outside
of the ribcage of a buffalo, that had to be finished by someone else. I think that one is in the record books, as well.

That's how I remember it, anyway. Never did try anything that fast. Figured 1350 fps was enough, and, I don't think they are really going that fast.

I think you've made a find the original designer never intended, and, that it works really well.

My hat's off to you.

Merry Christmas

GS

Maybe you should talk to the Smith again, because 1550 ain't correct..

I looked at the data for the .500 S&W, which has a smaller case, with 500 grain bullets. IT's a hair from 1500 fps, using over the counter powders.

I figured with 297, 1550, at near S&W pressures was close enough for government work, using a .500 Max, a considerably larger case, and a 525 grain bullet in .510".

jwp475 you are usually on the money, and, you've probably tried it. Do you have access to 297, and other powders not offered to the public?

You'll need more 297 to do what 296 is capable of doing. So, if the goal is to blow up your gun, you will be bette served with 296...... The .500 Smith is a higher pressure round and you shouldn't load them to similar levels.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
You'll need more 297 to do what 296 is capable of doing. So, if the goal is to blow up your gun, you will be bette served with 296...... The .500 Smith is a higher pressure round and you shouldn't load them to similar levels.

I think we are getting into compressed load type stuff to do that, and I tend to frown on that kind of stuff.

I'm just pointing out I thought 1550 was feasible, with insane, Ross Seyfried type loading practices, read 60k pressure or around there.

As I said, I'm more after the bottom end of the powder charges, rather then the top...

your no doubt right with a load like that but im not the one thats going to pull the trigger on it safe or not. One thing to keep in mind with a load like that is thats the reason John quit making those guns. To many people were loading then up into pressure ranges that they werent designed for. Im not one to throw stones in a glass house as ive done the same with my 500 1.4 and so do most who load for it. If you look at johns recomended loads there very low pressure loads. Loaded like John recomends the 475 is defineatly the better performer of the two. Like i said i go a bit higher sometimes and the 500 is capable of out powering the 475 and even outpentrating it but it takes bullets heavier and pressures heavier then John intented the gun to run. I think youd find thoug that pushing those heavys out of your max at 1400 would be safer and you wouldnt give up one bit of penetration. As a matter of fact id about bet a dime to a dollar it will improve.

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
LloydSmale: I think you are pretty close to right, but, you have to remember the 525's will run 1550 fps out of my gun, if I'm stupid enough to try and shoot a 85 ft lb recoiling
handgun, which I'm not.

Some REALLY crazy bullet folk cut the nose off a BMG practice lead round, and came up with a nice, 700 grain bullet, that is pretty much
only shootable out of a maximum:



Never shot the above...but if they stabilize, or even if they don't, that's an AWFUL lot of lead...

Here's an old picture of some 525's, and a couple Nitro Express .500 rounds, in my cartridge collection, but the empty
was shot out of Seans' .500 Nitro double. NICE round, and gun...

The 430 .500JRH did in a asian buffalo, IIRC, and you can see how it deformed on bone:





I have to ask what, if anything, have any of these loads fail to penetrate fully, and leave two holes?

My bullet choices are trying to find something that penetrates less, expands more, and still punches through target, or pig or deer.

Marko: The odd part is if you look at the .510 rifles, 600 grains, in a monometal is about the right length SD wise, but, still, it's
sort of like shooting a brick. IIRC, for soft points, you need 630 grains to get enough weight to punch through the intended horned typed targets.

quote:

I'm just pointing out I thought 1550 was feasible, with insane, Ross Seyfried type loading practices, read 60k pressure or around there.

First off a 525 grain bullet in the 500 Linebaugh at 1100 is not an over pressure load. A 525 in the Maximum is. 60,000 PSI in a 45 cal revolver is much safer than 60,000 in a500 Maximum.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

I'm just pointing out I thought 1550 was feasible, with insane, Ross Seyfried type loading practices, read 60k pressure or around there.

First off a 525 grain bullet in the 500 Linebaugh at 1100 is not an over pressure load. A 525 in the Maximum is. 60,000 PSI in a 45 cal revolver is much safer than 60,000 in a500 Maximum.

I didn't do it, so I have no horse in this race, unless the guy weakened the gun, but, I don't think that's the case, since I don't think Sundles would really load something THAT hot, and sell it.

Anyway, Merry Christmas.

GS

Picture of Paul H

Posted 24 December 2009 04:06 Hide Post
Once you get consistant exits on game, it is accedemic internet arguing as to which digs deeper on wet newsprint.

My lowly 480 w/ a 460 gr WFN @ a mere 1100 fps had penetration that was only slightly less than the best 475 and 500 loads the year it was tested at the linebaugh seminar (and outpenetrated many of the other loads tested), 38" in wet newsprint, 2+" bone and ~12" of newsprint on the bone and paper test.



Both linebaugh cartridge are outstanding designs and excellent choices for someone that wants to hunt all game with a sixgun. The 475 has the slight edge on the availability of brass and componet bullets.

Are you going to find an animal that is "slapped" down by the 500 that will appear unafected when shot by the 500, not likely. Nor are you likely to find an animal that is drilled clear through with the 475 that the 500 would barely make it through the hide.

I don't want to comment on penetration but this picture needs a little. I notice the gas checks were shed so I can't tell what happened at the base.
Notice the wide land marks at the front of the boolit from skidding. Now that is not a bad thing at all as long as the marks at the base are not larger then the lands and grooves. If they are, gas will escape and lead the bore and accuracy is also degraded. I would sure like to see the checks.
If marks are too large on the checks, my suggestion is to start to harden the boolits more until the base of the boolit is perfect to the bore. Do not worry about the front of the boolit.
A rubber mulch filled box can catch boolits to study.
The purpose of the check is to grab the rifling better then the lead and seal the base but you can over run the check too if the lead is too soft.

Paul i have to agree with bfrshooter looking at your bullets i think they would have done even a tad better using a bit harder alloy. Any time a bullet deforms it drasticaly effects pentration. thing is i guess your bullets do plenty good as they sure did penetrate but some of us are so anal that we can allways see room for improvement. I once surprised about everyone at a seminar with a 44 mag load that ran with all of the big dogs and beat up on all but a couple of them. It took a heavy bullet out of a good alloy at pressures high enough that i wont post the load. But it proves that rounds like the 44 45colt and especially the 480 will run with the big dogs.

i'd be willing to be that which ever has a slight advantage of a an inch or two in newsprint won't ever show that advantage in an animal. either will do fine on anything with a good bullet.

quote:

If both bullets (-the .475 bullet and the .500 bullet-) weighs the same, has the same velocity, and has the same meplat size,
penetration should be EQUAL.

no, its not, unless that SD is greater than about .280 ... the higher SD, from nil to about 280, the higher the penetration... after about .300, its academic, until vels get above 2200, at which time you are defeating bullet construction...

a smaller bullet, of the same weight, at the same speed, will PROBABLY, from 100fps to 2200fps, out penetrate the larger diameter, if they are the same construction and nose shape