One of my long time buddies called me today.

He is a 44 Mag kind of guy, and has been for many years.

He carries a 4" for CHL and as a field gun. When hunting on purpose with a handgun, he uses either a 6.5" or an 8&3/8"... All S&W of course.

Several years ago, on my recomendation, for a Utility Rifle, he got a Lever Action in 44 Mag.

He wants to buy a "supply" of factory 240gr 44 Mag ammo.

In his words he wants the best pick for "self defense, 2 and 4 legged, best for hunting deer, wild pigs, bear, elk, etc...

He is well aware of using lighter loads for self defense, and 300gr bullets for BIG stuff, but he wants to stockpile one factory load, that he could use for any reason.

Loads he is considering are:

Federal 240 HP or SP
Remington 240 SJHP or SP
Winchester 240 SP
Hornady 240 XTP

Notice none of these are high dollar designer bullets, as they are "to expensive" to buy in the quanity he wants...

I have used all of the "chosen" loads over the years except for the Hornady, but before I make my recomendation, I would like the input of other 44 Mag shooters...

So what is the best all round 240gr 44 Mag load from the above choices???

Is there another, affordable, factory load he could consider???

Well since you threw in the pigs, I would say the "best" all around 44 factory load is a Rem or Win or other brand name, 240 gr soft nose.

It will give good penetration and expansion.

Now if you are just shooting deer and want a defensive round for use against people, the Rem 240gr hpt expands rapidly to 75 caliber or so. But lacks penetration. With my carbine I seldom get pass throughs the 110# deer we have here in Texas. Thus it lacks penetration for a "Big" pig.

Due to pigs now being in my hunting area I have gone back to 240gr flat nosed soft points for my general carbine-revolver ammo.

The elk and pig requirements makes this really too broad a spectrum for any one bullet to be the "best" choice. I would agree on the soft point. Expansion is not needed so much for a bullet with a starting diameter of nearly a half inch. Penetration is what one needs for taking out targets, be they 2 or 4 legged.

I am not a fan of the 240 grainers for the .44 mag and prefer heavier bullets. That said, IMHO, the Remington is too soft -- good enough for thin skinned game like deer. I load these in my defensive .44 mag. Of the choices listed, I would probably lean towards the Hornady XTP.

I would opt for the Hornady XTP.

Just a comment:
Too many factors involved. Deer--elk and different, actual hunting situations, shot placement.
Having extensive experience, old time, long time fav is the Remington. By far, not the best for all situations ( stronger guns other than a M29, hardcast, etc. ). I just like'm, the way the jacket peels back. They don't always stay together. Have a box, full of mushrooms.
Name brands hard to come by. Lots of the others out there.

hornady 240 grain xtp

I've used most of the factory 240 grainers. Here's the run down with the fps after each (Federal has four or five in 240, but three are almost the same fps) -

Rem 1180
Win 1180
Federal 1230
Black Hills 1260
Hornady 1350
Cor-Bon 1475

In my opinion to the extent deer is the intended target, the best overall is the Hornady. It's moderate on the recoil but packs just under 1K ft lbs energy, which is perfect at reasonable ranges for deer. It actually gives you a bit of a margin of error. I have taken several deer real cleanly with it. It's an XTP JHP. For deer, it's an excellent load.

For personal defense against 2-legged it goes without saying that the same load, and for that matter, ANY of the others shown above are not only adequate, they are MORE than adequate.

As for the larger tougher game, most would advise going with a hard cast bullet.

Here we go again with a reference to the number of "Foot Pounds Of Energy". What possiable usefulness could knowing the FPE be?

i have used the win sp with good succes.While never used xtp in 44 that is a performing bullit of course the animals i'm shooting are whitetails

Bullet energy has its uses. If you're choosing between two cartridges and/or two bullets that are different, it's always been a good useful quick way to cross reference and compare them.

There's also the matter of bullet shock. In deer hunting, there are those who believe at or close to one thousand is the amount of energy that yields that quality of shock. I'm one who agrees with that, based on field results over four decades of deer hunting. Others agree too. I know of at least one who was experienced enough on it to write a popular book about it.

At any rate, I'd go with the Hornady. The Cor-Bon I like even better, but the extra 125 fps is IMO overkill on deer at moderate range. Also kicks a bit more than the others listed above.

Balderdash. Energy is meaningless. On paper every Casull load makes more ME than a .475 or .500 Linebaugh. You can guess which cartridges are more effective......

Gentlemen, I apreciate the replies.

Also, I would prefer if this thread does not turn into a Hatfield and McCoy Fued.

A little more info on my buddy.

Many years ago I turned him on to the 44 Mag as an all round handgun.

He has shot several semiautos, including the beloved 1911, but he prefers the S&W DA 44.

If he thinks he might need more "firepower" than 6 shots, wiith no time for a reload he adhears to the Josey Wales[sp] theory...

He is a good reloader and uses 240gr cast lead bullets for light plinking loads, medium power working loads, and when cast of linotype, for full power deep penetrating loads.

Over the years he has [as I] used several different factory jacketed loads.

WE have also loaded several different factory jacketed bullets over the years.

Also he has used several different less than full power 44 Mag loads for a "carry" load.

He has shot some 300gr and 300+ factory loads, and has carried same when in bear country.

No doubt he will continue to use his lead bullet reloads, and use lighter loads for defense, and heavier bullets when in bear country [but he does "argue" that a hard cast 240gr 44 will penetrate the skull of any NA game...].

What he wants is the best single load, to stock pile, for the future, for all round use in his 44's.

He has picked up a "few" bad habits from me, such as when he goes on a road trip he carries "over" one thousand rounds of ammo for his 44's...

Which in todays world, where finding extra ammo might be near impossible is not a bad idea...

I have convinced him to put back several boxes of Federal 300gr Cast Core, for bear country and elk hunts... Even Randy Garrett has told me personally that Federal cast Core is good ammo, not quite as good as his, but good stuff, none the less.

So, I apreciate the replies.

In a few days I will state my thoughts...

What I like about the Remington or Winchester standard 240gr soft nose or hollow point ammo, is that it is universally available in the States. The 240gr soft nose has always worked for me in the southern USA, no animals big enough to challenge the bullet. When I reload for my ruger carbine I duplicate the factory load so that it shoots to the same place as the factory loads, just in case my ammo can gets lost or something.

I have always felt if more power was needed, rather than stretch the 44 mag, just carry my Marlin 45-70 as my primary, pushing a 400gr pill around 1800fps or so. A 444 would work as well.

The killing power of the 44 mag reminds me of my roundball black powder guns. The big hole causes bleed out and quick shock.

If you reload, why not stockpile the components?

The original poster specificaly asked about factory loads.

Hamourkiller

My first 44 Mag rifle was a Ruger Deerstalker.

I killed a BUNCH of deer with 240gr factory ammo and 240gr reloads... It was the Hammer of Thor on them for sure...

MS I have advised him to stockpile "reload stuff", but he wants to, and I agree, "get enough factory ammo to last him the rest of his life"...

Also, since now, in the Great State of Texas, since we have a very good CHL [Concealed Carry Law], I have advised him he might want to get a light weight 44 for everyday carry [he rejected my "thoughts" on a Light Weight Commander 1911 in 45 ACP] for every day carry...


He replied, "That 44 Mag Mountain Gun you had me buy, carried in the Milt Sparks Summer Special, is easy for me to carry, and it hits where I shoot...."

BUT, as a second, or third gun, I might take a look at a 44 Mag Night Guard, as there are some times where it might be a good idea to have a gun "in a pocket"...

quote:

Also, I would prefer if this thread does not turn into a Hatfield and McCoy Fued.

It won't as long as the McCoys concede defeat..... I'm just kidding! I sometimes feel the need to say something when these myths are stated as fact when there really is no basis.

Sorry for the thread hijacking!

Whitworth

No problemo...

Cartridge Performance, would be my recomendation. You can specify the bullet and load if you want the cost will be in the 30 dollarish range for 50 rounds I have been very impressed with Andy's ammo


http://cartridgeperformance.com/ You can also call as he has ammo that is not listed on the web site 928-242-2176

jwp

Thanks for the info, but my buddy has specified only those loads selected from the Big 4.

He would not even consider Black Hills...

hamourkiller,

I understand the original question regards factory ammo. However, the original poster brought up reloading; therefore the question begged to be answered and I did.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
Bullet energy has its uses. If you're choosing between two cartridges and/or two bullets that are different, it's always been a good useful quick way to cross reference and compare them.

There's also the matter of bullet shock. In deer hunting, there are those who believe at or close to one thousand is the amount of energy that yields that quality of shock. I'm one who agrees with that, based on field results over four decades of deer hunting. Others agree too. I know of at least one who was experienced enough on it to write a popular book about it.

At any rate, I'd go with the Hornady. The Cor-Bon I like even better, but the extra 100 fps is IMO overkill on deer at moderate range. Also kicks a bit more than the others listed above.

While I totaly dissagree with the usefulness of FPE.
Let's take at look a an example. Let's compare 2 different bullets of the same caliber and wieght. On bullet has a very small meplat and is basically a non-expanding bullet and this bullet is exiting the muzzle at 1400 FPS. Bullet number 2 has a very wide meplat and is traveling only 1200 FPS. It is readily apparrent that the bullet traveling 200 FPS faster will have the most kinetic energy (FPE), but the bullet with the wide meplat will leave a larger would channel. We could also have a soft lead jacketed hollow point at the 1200 FPS and in no way will the compareing of energy figures reveal the better load. It is more about bullet choice than it is FPE..

Now where is the good in comparing FPE?

What is this "bullet shock" that you speak of?

FPE is not a perfect model of how a big game bullet will perform. It does not reflect well on how big slow lead bullets kill game.

a .75 roundball weighing 500+ grs at 1000 fps does not posses great amounts of FPE, but it is hell on mass and plows through animals easily. Big hole in and out is deadly. FPE does not reflect this reality so it is a flawed system but useful for modern higher velocity cartridges. Still not perfect for them but still useful.

In handguns, reality tells us that 50-45-44-41 caliber big game revolvers kill more like roundball guns. Big holes in and out equals great results. Again FPE does not reflect this reality from the game fields.

So FPE is the wrong model to apply to handguns on big game, the old roundball rules apply. With a fixed velocity range, to gain killing power go to a bigger bore and mass for a marked increase in killing power.

Hank

Hank, I don't think muzzle energy is all that useful when comparing rifle cartridges either -- much like horsepower, it is something that is calculated and not something you can measure. It is a marketing tool, pure and simple. JMHO.

SO getting back to the original question...

Do any of you have actual results of shooting anything with any of the four factory 240gr bullets in question, for selection???

Well six bullets actually considering HP and Sp bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
SO getting back to the original question...

Do any of you have actual results of shooting anything with any of the four factory 240gr bullets in question, for selection???

Well six bullets actually considering HP and Sp bullets.

Yes, I have some experience with some of the loads listed

quote:

Federal 240 HP or SP
Remington 240 SJHP or SP
Winchester 240 SP
Hornady 240 XTP

I hav used the Winchester 240 grain SP and the Remington 240 SJHP and the SP.

The Remington 240 and the Winchester 240 Grain SP are about the same IME as to performace on target. The Remington 240 SJHP is a bit soft IMHO for an all around bullet, but is an awwsome bullet for self defense IMHO. This bullet will expand to a huge diameter thus limiting penetration and not my first choice for an all around bullet. The 240 Remington 240 SJHP is the load that I use as a self defense load against 2 legged pry in my 44's.

I have shot the Federal loads and believe them to be good, but no real actual experience on game. I have not used the XTP 240 grain bullet and only know that a lot of people like them, but that does not make up for my lack of experience with them.

jwp

My actual results parallel yours.

I do not know if I have shot anything with the new White Box Winchester 240's but back in the day I killed several deer with Winchester, Remington 240 SP and 240 SJHP, and Federal 240 HP as well as Sierra 240 HP and Speer 240 SP in reloads.

Never could tell any difference between them, the only bullet I ever recovered was a 240 Speer that I shot a deer with at 85 yards from a 6.5" S&W Mod 29.

They all killed deer like the Hammer of Thor.

I do know that back when we carried 44 Mags as duty guns that the 240 Remington SJHP worked real well in actual shootings.

Later I carried the Federals [the 180's and the 240's] because they had a narrower nose and speedloaded very slickly.

As a side note, toward the end of our 44 Mag Duty days we were mandated to carry the 200gr Speer HP. It was kind of a 3/4, 7/8th, power load.

Recoil was reduced, and it did perform very well in actual shootings...

I would like to hear some more first hand info, on actual use, of the 240 Hornady XTP.

There is an article in a "Handloader" magazine where a bunch of goats if I remember correctly, had to be killed. They were shot with various handguns, and the 240 Hornady XTP did very well.
It rated just slightly second best to the old Speer 240 half jacket Semi wadcutter...

Elmer Keith would be proud.

I did notice that the last batch of factory Remington loads, with 240gr Soft Point bullets have the same Scalloped Jacket as their 240gr. HP's.

Thanks again for all the replies.

The quest for the 240gr factory Grail Load continues...

I have used the Hornady, Rem, and Win 240 bullets in loads for feral hogs. None of them exceeded 1300fps from my 7" Ruger. Of the three the Hornady's generally held up the best overall, meaning, a LOT less recovered bullets, and the ones that were recovered were not overly expanded.

Hornady has a bit thicker jacket on them than the others, and if only being used from the handgun I might suggest one of the others, but with the added velocity of the rifle, I would have to go with Hornady loads plain and simple.

A friend of mine is good friends with Lynn Thompson of Cold Steel knives, while I am not overly impressed with the fellow he can shoot, and took some factory Hornady 44 300 gr loads to Australia, and had a field day on hogs, buffalo and other critters. The footage of those 300 grain loads from his Super RH hitting those critters was pretty interesting, and showed that the bullets were touch enough to handle quite a bit. While not the 240gr they are make the same and for your task I believe they would behave similarly. Here is a link to a clip of some of the footage of him shooting those loads.
Handgun Hunting

Like I said above I am not a huge fan of his, and didn't spot this to hyjack the thread with folks who think one way or the other of his actions, simply to show the loads in actual use.

Mike, I spoke with the outfitter of that hunt, and the reason the 300 grain XTPs worked so well is that they didn't expand thereby acting like a solid.

Which by virtue of starting at nearly a half inch in diameter, really need no further expansion to be effective.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
Which by virtue of starting at nearly a half inch in diameter, really need no further expansion to be effective.

MS -- this was the .429 magnum. Do you recall the discussion we had about the use of expanding bullets on water buffalo?

Yes, and .429" is nearly a half inch.

Naaah -- .475 is nearly a half an inch......

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
jwp

My actual results parallel yours.

I do not know if I have shot anything with the new White Box Winchester 240's but back in the day I killed several deer with Winchester, Remington 240 SP and 240 SJHP, and Federal 240 HP as well as Sierra 240 HP and Speer 240 SP in reloads.

Never could tell any difference between them, the only bullet I ever recovered was a 240 Speer that I shot a deer with at 85 yards from a 6.5" S&W Mod 29.

They all killed deer like the Hammer of Thor.

I do know that back when we carried 44 Mags as duty guns that the 240 Remington SJHP worked real well in actual shootings.
Later I carried the Federals [the 180's and the 240's] because they had a narrower nose and speedloaded very slickly.

As a side note, toward the end of our 44 Mag Duty days we were mandated to carry the 200gr Speer HP. It was kind of a 3/4, 7/8th, power load.

Recoil was reduced, and it did perform very well in actual shootings...

That is the load I carry in my 44 for a defensive load against 2 legged preditors. I believe it is about as good as it gets in a 44 mag IMHO

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
jwp

My actual results parallel yours.

I do not know if I have shot anything with the new White Box Winchester 240's but back in the day I killed several deer with Winchester, Remington 240 SP and 240 SJHP, and Federal 240 HP as well as Sierra 240 HP and Speer 240 SP in reloads.

Never could tell any difference between them, the only bullet I ever recovered was a 240 Speer that I shot a deer with at 85 yards from a 6.5" S&W Mod 29.

They all killed deer like the Hammer of Thor.

I do know that back when we carried 44 Mags as duty guns that the 240 Remington SJHP worked real well in actual shootings.
Later I carried the Federals [the 180's and the 240's] because they had a narrower nose and speedloaded very slickly.

As a side note, toward the end of our 44 Mag Duty days we were mandated to carry the 200gr Speer HP. It was kind of a 3/4, 7/8th, power load.

Recoil was reduced, and it did perform very well in actual shootings...

That is the load I carry in my 44 for a defensive load against 2 legged preditors. I believe it is about as good as it gets in a 44 mag IMHO

This is also the load I carry in my 3-inch Lew Horton......

One thing that no one had mentioned is how those particular loads shoot in each of his guns. It would be pointless to stockpile ammo that shoots decently in one gun and like crap in the others.

He needs to give them a go-'round before committing to or considering a volume purchase.

Also, since hogs are on the menu, I'd stick with the SPs and avoid the JHPs as penetration is generally quite limited.