quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
One thing that no one had mentioned is how those particular loads shoot in each of his guns. It would be pointless to stockpile ammo that shoots decently in one gun and like crap in the others.

He needs to give them a go-'round before committing to or considering a volume purchase.

Also, since hogs are on the menu, I'd stick with the SPs and avoid the JHPs as penetration is generally quite limited.

That's good advice!

Thanks for tha additional info.

Yes, accuracy is a consideration, and that is one of the things we are going to check.

Shack, Cor Bon, and Buffalo Bore are both great ammo, but in large amounts it is pretty pricy.

Since you can get cast bullets to do the deep penetrating work, I look to jacketed bullets to EXPAND... Other wise why not just shoot cast???

However, while expansion can be a good thing, PENETRATION is paramount, IMHO.

More problems have been caused by not enough penetration, rifles and handguns, IMHO.

However as he wants this load for General Purpose All round use, I think it would be best to error on the side of penetration.

I am slowly trying to convince him that he might want to "stock pile" 2 or 3 different loads.

Since one of the beauties of the 44 Mag is that there a bunch of different loads for different puropses.

And if you are using the 44 Mag for ALL of you handgun needs, then different loads are a good idea.

Maybe stockpile a bunch of the "best all round" 240gr loads, and then get a good supply of higher expansion loads for personal defense, and a tougher 240SP for bigger stuff, or even better, a heavier cast bullet factory load for bear country . After all how many "shootouts. and bear attacks" are you going to be in???

N E 450 No2: In regards to your question concerning actual experiance on game.. I had a chance to hunt Ni'ihau Island Hawaii a couple of years ago.. took a Rossi Puma SS in 44 mag with Winchester white box 240s.. killed three polynisian boars and two morino rams in one day of shooting.. all victims died forthwith.. the rifle with the third replacement barrel from Legacy Sports would put three 240s in an inch and a half at 100 yds. hth.. Les

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Mike, I spoke with the outfitter of that hunt, and the reason the 300 grain XTPs worked so well is that they didn't expand thereby acting like a solid.

Well from simple a viewing standpoint it showed some pretty impressive results from factory loaded ammo, on some fairly tough game. As to all of the details, I haven't backtracked them as you did, as mentioned, I simply watched the footage, and described how I felt about the fellow in it.

I expected somewhat of what you said about the solid like performance, as they do seem to have a darn heavy jacket on them. Also some of the buffalo had some fairly wide areas for a expanding HP to have gotten through.

While I have shot them and the lower weight 240's, for my needs the Remington SJHP have done well, for less. But then again mine are handloads, and I am not in a position of possibly having to shoot bears.

Mike/TX

I have actually talked to Lynn Thompson in person a few times and he is a very nice guy.

He is very enthuastic about self defense, from no weapons, to knives, to guns.

I too was impressed with the performance of the 300gr Hornady XTP ammo on the Aussie buff.

Speeking of Hornady ammo, a whikle back I shot a pretty good pig at @40 yards with my Winchester Trapper with the Hornady factory 225 Lever Evolution. I reported it here on AR in the Lever Rifle forum.

I can say I was impressed with how "Hard" it appeared to hit the pig. It looked like it slammed him over...

The bullet gave good penetration, being found against the skin on the opposite side.

I have not shot any of it in a handgun yet.

I shot a really large sow two weeks ago with the 300 grain XTP load and it worked like a charm. One think I have to say I was pleasantly surprised about was the accuracy. I don't expect factory loads to be that accurate and they were.

I too was impressed with the performance of the that 300 grain load on all of the large game Lynn T. shot on that video.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I am slowly trying to convince him that he might want to "stock pile" 2 or 3 different loads.

Since one of the beauties of the 44 Mag is that there a bunch of different loads for different puropses.

And if you are using the 44 Mag for ALL of you handgun needs, then different loads are a good idea.

Maybe stockpile a bunch of the "best all round" 240gr loads, and then get a good supply of higher expansion loads for personal defense, and a tougher 240SP for bigger stuff, or even better, a heavier cast bullet factory load for bear country . After all how many "shootouts. and bear attacks" are you going to be in???

This is the best approach IMHO. No one bullet does every thing perfectly....

I forgot to mention the accuracy. I'm looking over some targets now and with the Hornady 240s I was getting groups at the club range of about an inch at 25 yards which widened out to about two inches at 50. My best "group" (two shots really) was about 1/2" and inside the X ring. This was with an old Model 29 with iron sights shooting sitting two hand hold with the gun on a support rest (worn out boat cushions with a rubber car floor mat for a blast shield). Using the scoped 629 at those distances you can pretty much pinpoint where you want them.

While I like the Hornady and Cor-Bon, if cost is a factor Rem's 240s in the 50 round box are hard to beat in new factory ammo. For the personal defense end of it and for deer they should be a good "one stop shopping" solution. You're not going to probably have that many shots at tougher game, so maybe a second heavier hard cast load in a small quantity will do. In other words, a two load solution instead of three.

On the cost, both the Cor-Bon and Hornady come in 20 round boxes. I'm looking now at my boxes of Hornady XTP 240s. I paid $14.50, 15.99 and 23 for them. Three boxes. The current price is still $23. The shop sells them at whatever the price when they came in. So you can find some that've been there a while at what look like real low prices.

The Cor-Bon's sell for $35. I haven't checked the Rems lately but I'm sure per round it's cheaper.

Shack, when you talk about the Rem 240's do you mean the SJHP, or the SP?

NE 450, I meant the JSP. The last time I looked at them it was the green box with 50 rounds. I haven't seen any Rems in HP in a long time.

But, it may not matter. Two reasons. As a practical matter I have my doubts as to whether at 1180 fps on deer or even 2 legged there's much expansion going on with either JHP or JSP in the 240. I could be wrong on that easily. But it's an educated guess based on examining exit holes on deer and on reading I've done regarding forensic pathology issues that have come up in court. To be specific, it appears that hollow point bullets don't always perform as advertised.

The other reason is that since the last general election, it's become hard to find ammo of many kinds period.

I just dropped by the local shop and they have no Rem 240 grainers at all. Bass Pro also has none.

The shop has only a few boxes of various .44 magnum ammo of any kind and it's the most well stocked place in my part of the country. Here's what they do have in small quantities (all 20 round boxes except for the Rem) -

Rem 180 gr JSP UMC $32
Fed 240 JHP $22.99
Win 240 HSP 24.39
Win 250 PTHP 30.59
Win 250 Partition Gold 32.99
C-B 240 JHP (1475 fps) 26.99 (well below prices I've seen elsewhere)
Hornady, various, but no 240 grainers

In other words, the pickings are slim. I hope not, but we may have to start taking what we can get. I suspect we all know who to credit for that.

Just a thought - I wonder if you could order direct from Hornady?

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
NE 450, I meant the JSP. The last time I looked at them it was the green box with 50 rounds. I haven't seen any Rems in HP in a long time.

But, it may not matter. Two reasons. As a practical matter I have my doubts as to whether at 1180 fps on deer or even 2 legged there's much expansion going on with either JHP or JSP in the 240. I could be wrong on that easily. But it's an educated guess based on examining exit holes on deer and on reading I've done regarding forensic pathology issues that have come up in court. To be specific, it appears that hollow point bullets don't always perform as advertised.

The other reason is that since the last general election, it's become hard to find ammo of many kinds period.

I just dropped by the local shop and they have no Rem 240 grainers at all. Bass Pro also has none.

The shop has only a few boxes of various .44 magnum ammo of any kind and it's the most well stocked place in my part of the country. Here's what they do have in small quantities (all 20 round boxes except for the Rem) -

Rem 180 gr JSP UMC $32
Fed 240 JHP $22.99
Win 240 HSP 24.39
Win 250 PTHP 30.59
Win 250 Partition Gold 32.99
C-B 240 JHP (1475 fps) 26.99 (well below prices I've seen elsewhere)
Hornady, various, but no 240 grainers

In other words, the pickings are slim. I hope not, but we may have to start taking what we can get. I suspect we all know who to credit for that.

Just a thought - I wonder if you could order direct from Hornady?

The Remington SJHP is a very soft bullet and there is definately a lot of expansion going on with this bullet. Also I chronographed the 240 grain SJHP a year or so ago and again this past week and it went 1380 FPS out of my M-29-2 S&W with 6 1/2" barrel
The SJHP is faster than the 240 JSP in my experience

I've shot the Rem 240s but don't have a chronograph. So the 1180 figure I got from their web-site. That was five years ago and it said then it pertained to the 240 in both the SP and SJHP. I know what some here think of energy figures, but for identification sake, it also said 741 muzzle for both. I like to kind of study this type data and was doing a listing at the time of all the commonly known .44 factory rounds available. I didn't make a note of the test barrel length, but usually they would be 6 or 6 1/2. Anyway, that's where the figure came from.

I also have the Model 29 in 6 1/2.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
I've shot the Rem 240s but don't have a chronograph. So the 1180 figure I got from their web-site. That was five years ago and it said then it pertained to the 240 in both the SP and SJHP. I know what some here think of energy figures, but for identification sake, it also said 741 muzzle for both. I like to kind of study this type data and was doing a listing at the time of all the commonly known .44 factory rounds available. Anyway, that's where the figues came from.

I also have the Model 29 in 6 1/2.

A lot of the 240 grain SP that I chronograhed in the past were in the 1180 to low 1200's FPS range. It is that the 240 SJHP's were in the 1380 FPS range, this is a mystery as to why they are so loaded

The difference between 1180 and 1380 is enough to feel in recoil. They weren't some real old leftovers were they? You know what those were like.

My old '70s Rem 240s feel to me even hotter than C-B's 1475. I've got just a few rounds left of those old ones. I'm thinking I'll use them up with a couple on deer and see if someone at the club will let me borrow their chronograph to test the few remaining ones - in the interest of ballistics science.

The local stores here said don't hold your breath on when the SPs would show up. And they drew a blank on the SJHP when I asked. I don't think they've seen any of those recently. On a hedge against the future I went ahead and picked up two boxes of 240s in Fed and Win to go with the Hornadys I already have. When you're not a handloader you look for cost effective deals like that.

Anyway, I'd keep in mind it's a .44 Magnum. There's very little in factory ammo for it that's not way more than sufficient for personal defense and deer.

Well my buddy, and all this discussion on AR has caused me to go a little Retro...

I have not hunted a lot with a handgun since I got into double rifles..

But I dug out my first original Mod 29 6 1/2 inch I bought in the early 1970's.

I am going to load up some of my hard cast Keith bullets, check my zero, do some practice and next deer season shoot some stuff with it.

I might even throw in a Factory 240gr load or two.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Well my buddy, and all this discussion on AR has caused me to go a little Retro...

I have not hunted a lot with a handgun since I got into double rifles..

But I dug out my first original Mod 29 6 1/2 inch I bought in the early 1970's.

I am going to load up some of my hard cast Keith bullets, check my zero, do some practice and next deer season shoot some stuff with it.

I might even throw in a Factory 240gr load or two.

Excellent! That's great news! I am glad to heara that you have been inspired and I look forward to reading the hunt reports. Keep us posted when you start developing loads!

Parting shot on this - if that '70s 6 1/2" "Dirty Harry Special" is in pristine condition, I'd keep in mind they bring a premium on GB these days. I have one myself (my second of those) and while I have hunted with it, I know that even carrying it in a holster will eventually show itself in wear, especially at the muzzle. Also, keep in mind those older ones weren't famous for being able to stand up to lots of hot loads.

So, I keep it now mainly as a collector and I bought a stainless 629 Classic with 8 3/8" barrel for hunting. You can shoot whatever and as much as you like with it and the longer barrel has its advantages anyway. Also I picked up a used SBH which is a real fine hunter. It was cheaper than the 629. Both were way less than the replacement cost of a mint in box original Model 29.

This particular 6 1/2" Mod 29 was my old Duty gun.

It has Memories...

I will not load it Hot.

I plan on using my Keith cast bullet loads, with 2400, not too much, just enough.

With the occasional factory load.

I don't load my 6.5-inch Model 29-3 hot any more, but I sure do carry and use it in the field.

Shack,

Here's one of those 70's, M29 - 2, UNFIRED, I just picked up.

& my old 29 - 2.

Very nice!

Yes, nice. I think the Model 29 in the 6 1/2 is one of the two best looking big bore handguns ever built (the other IMO is the Auto Mag).

I greatly prefer the 6 1/2 to the 6 and apparently so do others considering the premium the 6 1/2 commands when sold.

I like these so much I've seriously considered getting one in nickel, just to have one of each flavor. But then, do I really want to become a collector...

There are of course the new ones, which I'm told have stronger steel. They go for about a grand. They're easy to distinquish at a glance because of the different shape grips. However, I'm afraid I draw the line with those trigger locks.

quote:

I'm afraid I draw the line with those trigger locks

Yep, not appealing.

"I'm told have stronger steel."

But true.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:I like these so much I've seriously considered getting one in nickel, just to have one of each flavor. But then, do I really want to become a collector...

Like this?

I hate to rain on anyone's parade but I shot three deer behind the shoulder with 240 XTP's and recovered all three bullets under the hide. No bone hit and poor blood trails when back tracking. If I had not seen the deer go down I might have lost them if it was thick country.
The 300 gr XTP is the way to go but it might be hard on a S&W.
Too much expansion, too quick is not in your favor.

Whit, yes, that's it. I saw one at the last gun show for either $700 or $800 used. There's another show coming up this month, so I'll get a chance to re-check prices.

I have the same N frame in nickel in a Model 57, 8 3/8" and got some smooth ebony grips made by Eagle for it. I've thought about transfering those to a 29 in nickel if I got one. But I don't think I want to pay any $800.

bfr, that says what kind of expansion. Mine weren't recoverable. Did those separate or is the lead still there?

Mine didn't go any farther, with the sideways thru the ribcage shot. However mine were all real close shots. I've gotten the same results in a .41 using C-B's 210 JHP. I mention that because it has a different bullet shape than the XTP. It's that type bullet that's more narrow on the nose with a smaller hollow and straighter more sloped sides than the XTP (I can't do pics here unfortunately on any of this).

The point being is, I wonder if amongst JHPs the bullet shape matters much.

The bullets are still all there. They just expanded too fast which stopped them from making two holes. I back tracked all three deer and was surprised by the lack of blood even though they killed great. I got to thinking about a hard bone hit or a quartering shot so I went to a hard cast and will never look back.
Many, many more deer with the .44 and blood trails that look like gallon buckets poured out plus an average of 30 yard runs has convinced me that quick expansion for some calibers is not what to look for.
Animals are not "slammed" and just jump up and run or show no effect to the hit, they sometimes stay right there or run a ways. It does not matter what bullet or boolit either. Forget the energy dump junk.
To dump any animal means the spine, nerves, brain or break the shoulders.
Ask me if I want to shoot a 2000# buf with a 240 XTP.

That sounds a little like an argument in favor of a JSP instead of the JHP on deer - for those who don't handload.

Assuming energy is not part of it, then what accounts for the immediate dump effect (or "bang-flop" as some put it) on those sideways ribcage shots where there isn't much tissue or structural damage? I'm talking about with handgun in the 240 XTP and for that matter the C-B 210 JHP in .41.

It does NOT happen with any gun unless some part of the central nervous system is cut.
I have "bang flopped" deer with arrows too that have no energy. Shooting an animal through the lungs or wiping out the heart means it will run.
Enough energy to explode the entire insides will do it but you are thinking a revolver has that energy. The .44 is really a pipsqueek and it does take a breakdown of the spine, etc, to dump an animal. The right boolit can break both shoulders and the animal will go down. The wrong bullet will stop at the first big bone.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
That sounds a little like an argument in favor of a JSP instead of the JHP on deer - for those who don't handload.

Assuming energy is not part of it, then what accounts for the immediate dump effect (or "bang-flop" as some put it) on those sideways ribcage shots where there isn't much tissue or structural damage? I'm talking about with handgun in the 240 XTP and for that matter the C-B 210 JHP in .41.

If the spinal cord is shocked suffensiently temporary paralysis causes the animal to drop imediately, before the animal can recover from the temporary paralysis it bleeds out and never regains it's feet

bfr
That is intresting on the 240 XTP's.

I would want my "general purpose" 240's to go through broadside deer hit behind the shoulder.

However if the 300gr XTP does not expand out of a revolver when why not just use a hard cast bullet to start with???

The 300 does expand but at the proper rate so penetration is still good. The 240 is made to expand at a lower velocity and would do fine if shot slower. I was using 24 gr of 296 but don't remember the velocity. I think if you keep it down to 1100 or 1200 fps, it would go through deer or pigs better.
I was loading for accuracy so it might have been too fast.

Well we finally had a let up in the cold and rainy weather.

So I took the old 6 1/2" Mod 29 and a 4" S&W Mountain Revolver.

It was too windy to shoot at a distance and my right arm was still sore from running a chainsaw, but I just wanted to do some shooting...

So I did little test, to compile some info for the the overall 44 Mag Ammo project.

I fired 23 different loads through each revolver...

Some were loads I have had around for a while.

I fired the loads at 15 yards, it was just too windy [I was worring about the wind blowing my arm around not the bullets], and I also chose this distance because part of the test invloves personal protection.

I plan to shoot more tests at longer distances as time goes by and the best ammo choices come to the top. All shot were fired off hand.

Some intresting trends were seen and I will report on them.

The loads were all factory unless specified otherwise:

Speer 44 Special 200gr HP Blaser
CorBon 44 Secial 165gr HP

All the rest are Magnum Loads:

Reload with 240gr lead SWC over 8,3gr Unique.
Glaser Safety Slug, Silver
CorBon 165gr HP
CorBon 180 gr HP, I have had this load for a while.
Remington 180 SP, yes Soft Point. These are older loads from a yellow RP box that someone gave me.
Speer 200gr HP These are OLD loads the one with the pentagon shaped HP. This was an old duty load.
Speer 200gr HP Short Barrel Load

Cor Bon 225 DPX
Hornady 225 FTX Lever Evolution

Magtech 240gr SP
Starfire 240gr HP
Federal American Eagle 240gr HP
Remington 240 SJHP
Remington 240gr SP
Hornady 240gr HP XTP
Federal 240gr Hydro Shock HP
Buffalo Bore 255gr Cast Keith SWC, their low recoil load
Reload with 240gr Keith SWC cast of Linotype, over 21gr of old 2400
Winchester 250gr Partition Gold HP

Speer 270gr Gold Dot SP
Black Hills 300gr HP

I fired one round single action from each handgun.

I would shoot a few rounds 3 to 6, from the 4" revolver then the same 4 to 6 from the 6 1/2".

I shot the rounds in the order listed, so I could see several things as the shooting progressed.

In other words, there was a method to my madness.

Things I was checking/looking for.

Recoil/noise of the various loads.

Where they hit in realation to each other, in this case up close.

I will be checking this at a distance as the test goes on.

Also, to check both of the above in the 2 different barrel lengths, and see if loads that hit close together in the 4", do so in the 6 1/2" as well.

Also later the best loads will be shot at night/low light to check for muzzle flash.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
Well, at least I feel like I now know what expansion I was probably getting on the factory 240 XTPs.

Apparently then mine blew on through both sides due to that 1350 fps plus they weren't shoulder shots.

Speaking of the kind of shot, I know it's admitting to less than perfect bullet placement, but I have seen the famous "bang-flop" effect on a large deer using the 240 XTP with a liver shot. They will sometimes drop from shots other than cns in other words. And no, I don't recommend that.

People and animals are a like in many ways some go down easy, some don't

Both revolvers had wood grips.

The 4" some checkered Hogue finger groove, the 6 1'2" its original factory target grips that I "whitled" on back in the mid 1970's.
They were modified for speed loader use and their circumfrence reduced a little, as well as rounded on the bottom a little.

First Recoil:

The 6 1/2 inch gun was a LOT more plesant to shoot than the 4". The difference was substantial.

However the following recoil comments apply to both guns, ie. when comparing two loads the load that kicks harder in the 4" also kicks harder in the 6 1/2".

The 2 Special loads and the 8.3gr of Unique kicked about the same. All three are very controlable in rapid Double Action fire.

The CorBon 165 and 180gr loads kicked the same, they and the RP 180SP were loud. The 180 RP kicked a fair amound more that the CorBon light bullet loads.

The Speer 200gr Short Barrel load was not as lous as the light bullet mag loads and kicked a little less. This is a very controlable load, suitabel for some quick DA work.

The older Speer 200gr load, one of my old duty loads was a bit ste up in recoil over all the above loads except for the RP 180, they seemed about the same.

From here on up the difference in recoil between the 4" and the 6 1/2" gun, was very aparent.

Recoil was a little up with the CorBon 225DPX, and the Hornady 225 FTX. Near as I could tell they were the same.

They were pretty snappy in the 4" gun, but mild in the 6 1/2".